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Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?  
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5633 times:

Just my thoughts here, but could jetBlue use a TRUE Western hub? Maybe turning LGB into a hub like JFK or OAK into one? Moving some E190s or purchasing more to serve the FAT, PHX, SMF, TUS, SCK, RNO with the small aircraft? And then useing some of the bigger aircraft for the LGB to PDX, LAS, PHX, OAK, DEN, SEA, PVR, CUN, GDL, SMF routes? Yes I know jetBlue already offers a few of these but making it into a true hub like JFK is.


Don't Tread On Me!
48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4357 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5633 times:

Quoting QXatFAT (Thread starter):
Maybe turning LGB into a hub like JFK

Well yes, if it wasn't severely slot restricted.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6006 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5608 times:

QXatFAT...JetBlue can only add so many more flights in Long Beach. They are close to there slot allotments. The E190 doesn't fall under the cummuter waiver due to its higher weight. LGB will not see many more flights then it has now. Remember LGB also doesn't even have jetways or that much gates space for that matter. They operate out of shacks practically. LGB is more of a forever focus city that works due to the LA Metro O/D traffic. OAK has the best chance, and thats a long shot with limited gates an being a Southwest hub per se.

ASLAX



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineGoBlue From Canada, joined Jun 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5499 times:

Problem with a western hub right now would be the lack of an airport that is available for them, where they have a viable presence already , and UA, SWA and oth ermajors do not have a huge operation. They did well with JFK as it was under served domestically (by LCC), and they have yet to locate that site in the mid-west that they want to exploit. I would assume there is a western hub on the horizon, but it will be a slow deliberate move out west...... based on there reduction in expansion!

Cheers


User currently offlineTAN FLYR From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1897 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5372 times:

Just my 2 cents here from the San Joaquin Valley..Several things at play here.
Already established hubs for Western/Rocky Mtn region at DEN/SLC/PHX.
A more north/south Pacific Coast hub at SFO with UA.
Mini hub commuter at LAX for UA & AA.
Unused hub potential at SJC

So where would you put it with enough O&D traffic and compete with whom?
The only 3 places I can think of would be FAT (fat chance!) ,SJC or SMF. Not sure about gates and such at SMF, But I would think that FAT could accomodate some sort of mini hub with it's existing structure.

Would it profitable/ practicle?? If there is enough traffic that would avoid connections at either SJC /SFO to do it and feed cross- country flights?

Would the 195s be too big for such an operation?

Lots of questions..few answers.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5356 times:

I'm afraid to say that Alaska/Horizon, United, and Southwest have virtually all the point-to-point and hub flights on the west coast that is needed.

SFO and LAX are used primarily as Asian getaway hubs, while PDX and SEA are Pacific Northwest hubs. Any other point-to-point service is taken care of with Southwest and Horizon.

It's a good idea, but the true "hub" system relies on a lot of O&D numbers, and I think on the west coast, that's pretty much taken care of as it stands now.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3993 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5319 times:

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 4):
Already established hubs for Western/Rocky Mtn region at DEN/SLC/PHX.

Since F9 is competing against UA at DEN and HP/US and WN are as big as they are in both PHX and LAS why not have B6 go into SLC (Neelman's hometown LOL!  laughing  Wink) and be a competing LCC against DL? The big issue aside from the DL competition I see is gate space.  twocents 



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5301 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
Since F9 is competing against UA at DEN and HP/US and WN are as big as they are in both PHX and LAS why not have B6 go into SLC (Neelman's hometown LOL! laughing Wink) and be a competing LCC against DL? The big issue aside from the DL competition I see is gate space. twocents

DL would defend SLC tooth and nail. I would not want to see that happen. Reno has been a market that has been hurt since Reno Air has left. Filter flights through Reno might be interesting.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3993 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5273 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 7):
DL would defend SLC tooth and nail. I would not want to see that happen. Reno has been a market that has been hurt since Reno Air has left. Filter flights through Reno might be interesting.

Isn't that what they said about DEN and UA? RNO is much too small, they are just an LAS wannabe at this point.  twocents 



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5273 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 7):

DL would defend SLC tooth and nail. I would not want to see that happen. Reno has been a market that has been hurt since Reno Air has left. Filter flights through Reno might be interesting.

RNO seems like a good destination choice but I don't know about a hub there. Maybe like 2X to JFK, 1X BOS, 1X IAD, 2X OAK, 1X LGB, 1X BUR and they can call that a good focus city.

I can see jetBlue grow a little more at OAK without really getting itno head to head fare wares with WN. Also SJC does well for the, so they could maybe expand that a little.

B6jfk airplane 



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

ONT seems to be severely underutilized. If B6 needed loads of gates in a fairly new airport near a major metro, I'd think ONT would be near the top of the list. That area is just going to grow.

User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 9):
RNO seems like a good destination choice but I don't know about a hub there. Maybe like 2X to JFK, 1X BOS, 1X IAD, 2X OAK, 1X LGB, 1X BUR and they can call that a good focus city.

I can see jetBlue grow a little more at OAK without really getting itno head to head fare wares with WN. Also SJC does well for the, so they could maybe expand that a little.

B6jfk airplane

I would give a kidney to see the 195's in the west. Any idea if there is any chatter on this?



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2848 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5157 times:

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 10):
ONT seems to be severely underutilized. If B6 needed loads of gates in a fairly new airport near a major metro, I'd think ONT would be near the top of the list. That area is just going to grow.

That is an interesting idea that has some backbone to it and actually allows growth. We should have expanded ONT instead of BUR.  cheeky 

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 11):
I would give a kidney to see the 195's in the west. Any idea if there is any chatter on this?

Don't give away your kidney too quickly. First, we don't fly 195's, we fly 190's.  duck 
Anyway, the 190's will have to make their way west eventually, and I have a feeling that their integration correlates to whatever dots we start adding to the map in 2007/2008 heading further west and then begin to connect them.
 eyebrow 



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5117 times:

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 12):
That is an interesting idea that has some backbone to it and actually allows growth. We should have expanded ONT instead of BUR.

Don't get me wrong, I live 15 minutes from BUR and it is a great market. But ONT would seem to have the ability to actually be a "hub" in a true sense of the word, with decent facilities and capacity, and a fairly good O&D market (even allowing for the fact it is 30-40 miles east of downtown LA).


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9382 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

I don't think a west coast hub fits in well for them at the moment, since it doesn't really fit in to where jetBlue has done well. JetBlue has thrived off of the vacation crowd headed to Florida from the northeast. Well there is no such market in the west coast with the exception of what Alaska has in Seattle. In the east, there is a huge population of middle to upper class people that live in the northern climate and have the money to spend on vacations in the winter. In the west, the population is centered in California, so there isn't as huge of a vacation market.

With that said, another factor is that the west is much less densely populated. The cities being bounced around as ideas have no where near the population of what JFK and BOS serve. Yes LAX, SFO and SEA are among the 25 busiest airports, but they are all very well served.

There just isn't the market available. America West came in to existance in the 1980s by thriving off of PHX and LAS, but those markets are tapped.

The midwest already has too many hubs and is in decline.

So where will jetBlue go? It seems like connecting the dots might make sense although their recent push in to this market in recent years has not yielded much and their profits are small and near nonexistant now.

In the end, jetBlue found a niche and exploited it, but there hasn't been a second niche found yet that has that much potential. Maybe there is one out there, but I doubt that it is on the west coast.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
In the west, the population is centered in California, so there isn't as huge of a vacation market.

I wouldnt take that to a large extent. A lot of people here travel for vacation. You have massive amounts of people that travel to Hawaii for vacations year around, people flying to SEA to catch cruzes (normaly on AS/QX), people flying to SLC and DEN for skiing!, people flying to Mexico all the time! Even here in FAT with the sucess to GDL MX is flying that there already upgrading it for the holliday and the talk about F9 possibly coming into FAT to try to serve Mexico as well. So your statement on vacations not leaving california, you are very wrong. Plus all the people that come here to go on vacation. The speedways, the professional sports arenas and parks, SFO, LAX, SMF for buisness, FAT for national parks, SAN for get aways, must I go on?

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
With that said, another factor is that the west is much less densely populated.

Sure it is less densly populated compaird do the BOS, JFK, IAD, BWI rejion but you still have a massive amount of people living in the LAX, SAN area. That place is just filling in all the little spaces it has left. If you look at a population dot graph you can see that the area down there is filling up fast! So sure that the NYC area is bigger but the LA area on on the rise.



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineGalapagapop From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 910 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

I'd be interested in them adding some more routes to and from SAN. They use 2 gates atm for the IAD and JFK afternoon flights (What only 3 daily depatures? 2 JFK 1 IAD?), I'm sure they could stock in a morning flight to maybe Florida? Or OAK? Along with some other things. I don't think SAN could ever be like JFK, but I think some better utilization of gates and personel would be up its alley.

User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4906 times:

What about COS? The majority of service into COS is by Mesa, SkyWest, and ExpressJet. It seemed to work for Western Pacific as a hub until they stupidly moved their hub to DEN.

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7325 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4873 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
With that said, another factor is that the west is much less densely populated. The cities being bounced around as ideas have no where near the population of what JFK and BOS serve. Yes LAX, SFO and SEA are among the 25 busiest airports, but they are all very well served.

Yes it is, but SoCal has an enourmous market and its growing exponitially. They can definately grow in the LA area. ONT is a great suggestion and so is SAN. BOS serves a MUCH smaller market that do the Los Angeles airports and the bay area is around the same size if not bigger than the Boston area. There is no room for growth at LAX, LGB, and BUR, but ONT and SAN are good suggestions.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21419 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4830 times:

If they keep running radio ads where a potential customer doesn't need extra legroom because he lacks an extra leg, I don't think they have to worry about exponential growth out here in Los Angeles, anyway.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7325 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4783 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
If they keep running radio ads where a potential customer doesn't need extra legroom because he lacks an extra leg, I don't think they have to worry about exponential growth out here in Los Angeles, anyway.

Haha, yeah, I hear those on KROQ all the time. I think ONT is a cash cow and someone (hopefully B6) will cash in on it.  twocents 

[Edited 2006-11-01 23:27:29]


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9382 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4762 times:

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
I wouldnt take that to a large extent. A lot of people here travel for vacation. You have massive amounts of people that travel to Hawaii for vacations year around, people flying to SEA to catch cruzes (normaly on AS/QX), people flying to SLC and DEN for skiing!, people flying to Mexico all the time! Even here in FAT with the sucess to GDL MX is flying that there already upgrading it for the holliday and the talk about F9 possibly coming into FAT to try to serve Mexico as well. So your statement on vacations not leaving california, you are very wrong. Plus all the people that come here to go on vacation. The speedways, the professional sports arenas and parks, SFO, LAX, SMF for buisness, FAT for national parks, SAN for get aways, must I go on?

Do you have any idea how big the New York City market to Florida is? There are roughly 160 flights per day between the three New York airports to Florida, and jetBlue has about a quarter of the market. This is huge!!!

Daily flights to each of these cities from NYC
41 FLL
29 MIA
21 PBI
35 MCO
11 RSW
23 TPA

That is the bread and butter of jetBlue. They are very successful on these routes. There is nothing on the west coast to that volume. Bay Area-LA Area is big, but there is no way that jetBlue could come in and operate 50 flights profitably in that corridor that is dominated by United and Southwest.

I'm not trying to argue, but I still don't think that there isn't as much potential as to what jetBlue has achieved. For example, Ft. Lauderdale has many times the number of cruise ships based there year round compared to those that Seattle and Vancouver have for a three month span that go to Alaska. Hawaii is a small market compared to Florida. I don't deny that there are a lot of people and a lot of travel for vacationers to Mexico, Hawaii, the Pacific Northwest and the Mountains, but it isn't at the volume that the east coast has and there isn't really the potential. Alaska has Seattle completely locked up as it is a dominant force. WN has intra California taken care of and United has the country and world covered from California. And there are also other hubs. So yes there is a market, there isn't the potential that jetBlue had when it started at JFK.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineGalapagapop From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 910 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):

Yes it is, but SoCal has an enourmous market and its growing exponitially. They can definately grow in the LA area. ONT is a great suggestion and so is SAN. BOS serves a MUCH smaller market that do the Los Angeles airports and the bay area is around the same size if not bigger than the Boston area. There is no room for growth at LAX, LGB, and BUR, but ONT and SAN are good suggestions.

The thing is for SAN and ONT its delays and just general restrictions in size. SAN is great but again 18+ days a year you have 2+ hour delays into and out of SAN with the 9/27 mess with one ILS and takeoff restrictions, this is a huge limiter of a hub operation. I suggested for SAN merely a decent upgrade for B6. Very trendy area ( in terms of wealth) and I've always held that B6 appeals on some trendy sublevel, which can explain its popularity in many markets. Not to mention with 2 gates they own and the 3rd daily JFK flight coming off the books for the winter season I think having 2 gates for 3 flights is excessive, I see the permenant staff, but I think they'd do good adding a few flights to utilize gates and it if some good routes are added along with times, B6 can do really good. BTW is there only 1 US airline on SAN-CUN? Could B6 open that up, or is AS going to serve it?


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24651 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4721 times:
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Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 22):
BTW is there only 1 US airline on SAN-CUN? Could B6 open that up, or is AS going to serve it?

Is Frontier not good enough?

???

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4711 times:

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 22):
The thing is for SAN and ONT its delays and just general restrictions in size.

Neither SAN nor ONT have many delays (if any). And ONT certainly isn't size-restricted at all.


25 Post contains images Galapagapop : I had a feeling there were 2 just couldn't figure the last one. Na F9 is fine Wrong SAN does have delays. Certainly a few every now and then during m
26 Post contains images QXatFAT : Dont worry, I dont see it as an arguement. But does something HAVE to be as big or bigger then the NYC area in order to take on a hub somewhere else?
27 Travelin man : I'm not saying they don't have any delays, but they definitely have fewer than JFK (B6's main hub). So that shouldn't be a concern. And I'd separate
28 EMBQA : Why would an eastcoast airline want a westcoast hub....???
29 RoseFlyer : Why did a west coast airline recently buy an east coast airline? (US Airways) Why do west coast airlines keep getting bought out by big airlines from
30 SANFan : A couple of thoughts. First, Gala, unless something drastic has changed, B6 uses only one gate at Lindbergh; it used to be 37 (B6 sharing the gate wi
31 AS739X : Out of curiousity guys, regarding ONT don't you think it would be busier if it was a cash cow? You fly over ONT during the day and its a ghost town. I
32 Post contains images Mariner : mariner
33 Luv2fly : Granted it is the smallest of the three CO hubs it is not considered "mini" PIT would be an example of a true "mini" hub.
34 Post contains images Walter747 : LGB doesn't even have jetways. and yes they do need a western hub other than LGB. Maybe be SAN
35 QXatFAT : By mini yes I ment in CO standards being the smaller one. And that is what I mean for B6. Does not have to be as big as JFK but a airport that can se
36 RW717 : Reno worked very well for QQ as a hub, but a hub for them was 40 flts per day. As a former CSA for QQ I think that a focus city in RNO (similiar to L
37 F9Animal : LMAO!!! Oh man, I was tired when I typed that out, and trying to cook something at the same time..... I also had to change the cat litter, and my key
38 Galapagapop : Actually they have. I was just there on last Saturday trying to catch the 2:55 (around and about that time) back to JFK. We boarded the originating I
39 Travelin man : You could have said the same thing about LGB prior to B6's arrival there.
40 Post contains links SANFan : Interesting, Galap'. First, let me explain that I am not physically in SAN these days so I can't get to Lindbergh to check things out; I'm kind of a
41 Galapagapop : Well the 2 were from old scedules that ended 11/1 (or around then), this was 10/27, so it was still 3 JFK 1 IAD. I'm baffled for the 2 planes, althou
42 Post contains images SANFan : Galap', you've got me hooked here; I'm not trying to give you a hard time but I just want to figure out what's happening with B6 in SAN. Your referred
43 LACA773 : I think ONT "could" be a cash cow for someone, but like many other's have said in this post and many other posts when ONT is brought up, is that it's
44 Post contains images AkjetBlue : Back to the original question: Could JetBlue use a true western hub? First I think B6 needs to figure out what they are doing in terms of what type of
45 Galapagapop : By the time I got home it was Sat though, sorry for that, it was indeed Friday. I'm baffled as well. Now I would maybe say it was 182 delayed, but I
46 Laxintl : For those that talk about ONT lets gets some facts on the table. Located in the single fastest growing region of California known as the Inland Empire
47 SANFan : I certainly don't argue any of the facts in your recent post, LAX, but let's include an additional point or two regarding your last paragraph/conclus
48 AkjetBlue : Anyone if B6 is planning on bringing back the 2nd daily JFKONT flight?
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