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Alaska Airlines Takes-off On Wrong Runway In Ksea  
User currently offlineAmwest2United From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 409 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19063 times:
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I looked for this topic, was unable to find it.

CNN is reporting that an Alaska Airlines jet taxied onto the incorrect runway and took-off, yesterday. It was reported that since there were no landing aircraft, the controllers allowed the flight to continue.

It sounds like the flight was cleared for take-off prior to reaching the runway, thus the pilots started their take-off roll before controllers noticed.

Any info on this??


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70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5130 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18988 times:

Did they outsource their pilots? LOL! Just kidding. Kind of hard to speculate on the error, as nobody knows the pilots side of the story. I would imagine it was a communications error, or a misunderstanding. AS pilots are some of the best in the industry. <---- I am not sticking up for the situation by stating that by the way.

If the tower allowed the continuance of takeoff and reports that there were no aircraft landing on the runway the AS plane took off from, then I would imagine they should have said something to the flight crew. They could have also been courteious to state that they were approaching the wrong runway, if they did see the aircraft approach the wrong runway.

[Edited 2006-11-01 17:40:33]


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9668 posts, RR: 68
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18969 times:
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http://www.komotv.com/news/4536186.html

So 34 right would be the "busy" runway...sketchy!


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21882 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18941 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 1):
They could have also been courteious to state that they were approaching the wrong runway, if they did see the aircraft approach the wrong runway.

The way SEA is set up, it appears that they were supposed to take off on 16R or 34L, but instead took off on 16L or 34R. Since they'd have to cross 16L/34R to get to 16R/34L, ATC wouldn't have known until they started to takeoff.

-Mir



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User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18855 times:

"The Federal Aviation Administration says the plane was told by air traffic controllers to depart from Runway 34 Center. The pilots twice correctly read back that they were going from 34 Center, but instead took off from Runway 34 Right."

Actually what worries me most is that according to this story (which is obviously wrong) the FAA thinks that SeaTac has 3 active runways. (34L, C, R). Also it seems like the pilot thought they did too.  Wink

Someone correct me if i'm wrong... but i didn't think our 3rd runway was even close to being done yet...

We do NOT have a 16C - 34C!
16R - 34L
16L - 34R.... thats it.



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9668 posts, RR: 68
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18842 times:
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PHOTO SCREENER

we do have a center runway now, and have had for about 2 weeks.

User currently offlineASMVPGOLD From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18823 times:

SEA just changed their runway designators so i am sure that will be a factor. 34L is now 34C. the new 34L is still under construction.

As a side note... i can't remember the last time i took off from 34L (now 34C). 34R/16L handles most of the tko. 34C/16C is used primarly for landings.



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User currently offlineMEACEDAR From Lebanon, joined Oct 2006, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18782 times:

Maybe the signs were wrong on the ground? I don't think so because any plane that was going to depart from 34C would have departed from 34R, but it a possibility. Was there a lot of traffic at 34C, maybe the pilots wanted to depart quickly so they choose that runway, sounds dumb but it might be a possibility.

I think it is the control towers fault, they were not paying attention to the runway.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18781 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 4):
Someone correct me if i'm wrong... but i didn't think our 3rd runway was even close to being done yet...

While the third one might not be completed yet, they recently re-identified and re-marked the two existing runways to reflect the eventual completion of the new one.


User currently offlineMEACEDAR From Lebanon, joined Oct 2006, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18752 times:

Maybe the signs were wrong on the ground? I don't think so because any plane that was going to depart from 34C would have departed from 34R, but it is a possibility. Was there a lot of traffic at 34C, maybe the pilots wanted to depart quickly so they choose that runway, sounds dumb but it might be a possibility. The control tower might also have gave them the wrong way to get to 34C, they might have gave them the way to 34R.

I think it is the control towers fault, they were not paying attention to the runway. The pilots may have wanted to prove a point to show that the control tower and the FAA don't know what they are doing.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18750 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 8):
While the third one might not be completed yet, they recently re-identified and re-marked the two existing runways to reflect the eventual completion of the new one.

If it's not active, it shouldn't be marked. Oy...


User currently offlineMEACEDAR From Lebanon, joined Oct 2006, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18731 times:

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 9):
The pilots may have wanted to prove a point to show that the control tower and the FAA don't know what they are doing.

Not that I think that.  Smile  Smile


User currently offlineCVG2LGA From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 635 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18660 times:

Well they are doing better than the CO 757 at EWR. At least they were on a runway rather than a taxiway.
Tchau
DA-



They don't call em' emergencies anymore. They call em' Patronies.
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18661 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 10):
If it's not active, it shouldn't be marked. Oy...

Standard practice when a new runway is under construction, and they did the same thing at DFW to the existing 17L/17R when the new 17L was under construction. The old 17L was remarked as 17C, and it got folks used to it before the new 17L was even finished.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 9):
The pilots may have wanted to prove a point to show that the control tower and the FAA don't know what they are doing.

And risk a FAA violation/fine/certificate action? Sorry, but I think your theory defies simple common sense.

It was a plain old human error folks... They happen...


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18637 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 13):
Standard practice when a new runway is under construction, and they did the same thing at DFW to the existing 17L/17R when the new 17L was under construction. The old 17L was remarked as 17C, and it got folks used to it before the new 17L was even finished.

Standard practice is an "X" on the non-active, this is done by the airport. While the old runway may be re-marked a new one cannot be marked until flight checks are scheduled.


User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1488 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18636 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 4):
We do NOT have a 16C - 34C!

Better check your 20-9 page. 34C does exist.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18606 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 14):
a new one cannot be marked until flight checks are scheduled.

OK, I'll buy that. Heck, a new one can't be marked until it's done being constructed, but the "new" runway isn't the point/issue here.


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18581 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
we do have a center runway now, and have had for about 2 weeks.

http://www.portseattle.org/news/press/2006/10_31_2006_55.shtml

The new runway is not open yet. Did they already re-label the other runways?
The new one isn't supposed to open for another year+. Why would they do that already?



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5130 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18535 times:

I got it!!!

Was it Menzies? Maybe the pilot was confused with the grafitti on the runway signs. We can't leave any stones unturned here.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinePotomac From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18535 times:

read the previous posts, folks! the runway has been redesignated as 16C-34C even though the new 16R-34L isnt completed yet. this is a common change at a certain stage of the new runway's construction.

User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18487 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 17):
The new runway is not open yet. Did they already re-label the other runways?
The new one isn't supposed to open for another year+. Why would they do that already?

So when it does open, pilots are used to it and you don't have planes taking off from the wrong runway. Like that would ever occur.  Wink



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18471 times:

Quoting Potomac (Reply 19):
read the previous posts, folks! the runway has been redesignated as 16C-34C even though the new 16R-34L isnt completed yet. this is a common change at a certain stage of the new runway's construction.

I guess they just don't believe us...  Wink

For those who need to see it to visualize it: (The dashed outlines are the new 16R/34L and associated taxiways. Changing the old 16R/34L to 16C/34C now avoids confusion in the future when the new runway actually opens, since folks will have gotten used to the new 16C/34C by then.)



User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18239 times:

In the recent thread on the CO 757 that landed on the taxiway at EWR a few days ago, it is mentioned that SWA apparently have had their fair share of problems with the new runway at SEA too (regarding landings in this case apparently). IIRC WN had landed on the taxiway (or at least the wrong runway) three times...

Kevin777



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18212 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 16):
OK, I'll buy that. Heck, a new one can't be marked until it's done being constructed, but the "new" runway isn't the point/issue here.

After reading again, we were saying the same thing.  

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 17):
The new one isn't supposed to open for another year+. Why would they do that already?

Maybe the paint contract was due and they had some extra...

[Edited 2006-11-01 20:50:49]

User currently offlineMd80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2661 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17031 times:

Although 34L was changed to 34C, 34R has always been 34R. The runway the aircraft took off from wasn't changed, it's always been 34R. Two sets of two pilots (this and LEX) making the same identification mistake, in the span of a few months....is a bit disturbing.

What's the deal? Do we need to bring back the 3-man flight crew?


25 IAHFLYR : Disturbing yes however I don't believe this and LEX are all that similar, at least these 2 were heading in the right direction rolling down the runwa
26 Walter747 : geeze whats going on this weel planes landing on taxi ways, hitting eachother and taking off on the wrong runways. what a week.
27 Post contains images OPNLguy : In the sense that it appears that both the LEX and SEA crews took off from the first runways they came to, yes, but even the SEA crew doing a heading
28 Ward86IND : IMHO ATC has to be at least a little bit at fault here. Are you telling me that after the plane failed to turn off of taxiway B onto Q, which leads to
29 OPNLguy : You're assuming that they used 34R at its full length. There are such things as "intersection takeoffs" where the full length of a runway is not used
30 MEACEDAR : That made me chuckle a bit.
31 71Zulu : Since the original 34L/16R & 34R/16L was in use for so long, why would they not just call the new runway 35/17? Seems like it would be less confusing
32 Deltamike172 : I'm guessing the reason they relabeled so far in advance to the new runway opening is because the new runway has been paved for the most part. There I
33 OPNLguy : They usually use the L/R/C designations when there will be only 3 parallel runways, and when two pairs of parallel runways exist (LAX is a good examp
34 Flyboy2001 : I think it comes down to due dilligence, on the part of all involved. As a private pilot, the reading of runway and taxiway markings is drummed into u
35 Sanjet : Sorry for asking this, I've never been in this situation. Would they call it runway 34 Center or 34 Charlie? (ie: UAL341 clrd to land 34 Charlie...)
36 OPNLguy : Center.
37 AlexPorter : I believe they'll say 34 Center (they don't say 34 Romeo or 34 Lima).
38 Baw716 : 16R/34R was redesignated 16C/34C as earlier reported. This was in a NOTAM I saw about two weeks ago, if memory serves. Frankly, I'm a little surprised
39 N754PR : CI A340 departs from a taxiway.. CRJ departs from wrong runway and crashes... CO 752 lands on a taxiway.... now this..... so much for the FAA telling
40 Bobster2 : Isn't 34R normally used for takeoff? Why would ATC send them to the landing runway for takeoff with no other traffic on 34R? Or maybe I have this back
41 Post contains images We're Nuts : I love people trying to blame the controllers for these mistakes. ATC doesn't exist to hold the pilot's hand!
42 JetBlueAUS : It seems like AS has a lot of technical errors with its planes and employees...
43 OPNLguy : With local news there every time they fart, not to mention CNN Headline News regurgitating the same item over and over, it probably does seem like al
44 Flyboy2001 : I agree, to a point. As I poster earlier, it's the pilot's responsibility to ensure that the plane goes where it should, the way it should - but ATC
45 Boston92 : Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but for all of you asking why the existing runways are all ready re marked, wouldn't it be because the rnwy that
46 Alaska737 : well almost every time i fly out of SEA we use either 34R or 16L, so maybe the pilot was just going through his routine and just figured it was 34L i
47 OPNLguy : I read where this was something like a 0630 am departure, and if so, perhaps with hardly any arrival traffic they gave the Alaska flight the west-mos
48 IAHFLYR : Very true as well as with ATC. I would offer that AS puts airplanes in very difficult situations such as Juneau, between lots of rocks with extremely
49 OB1504 : From what I can gather, 34R is normally used for departures. Perhaps the crew (I'm assuming they were based in SEA) had become so accustomed to heari
50 RyDawg82 : Runway 34R at Q is pretty standard practice at KSEA...So this isn't a factor. Yes of course it must be ATC's fault....You have to be kidding.... Yes
51 Aileron11 : WOW, this thread to the heat off CO 757-200 landing on taxi way at EWR, Also i know both incident's are severe, but which one will be worst, taking of
52 OPNLguy : There's alot of different kinds of "worst" out there. "Worst" as far as repercussions to the crew? "Worst" as far as the potential for accident and l
53 Bobster2 : So why is this news? The system worked the way it was supposed to work. They had permission to cross 34R. That means there was no imminent danger. The
54 OPNLguy : Another reason that the two CO EWR deals and this one at SEA got the coverage that they did was that November is a "sweeps" rating period for the med
55 Jetboy319 : Perfect.... since pilots are so good at seeing everything all around their aircraft, including inbounds, why even bother with ATC? Just look out the
56 DL Widget Head : Not taking off on the wrong runway or landing on a taxiway. Fortunately, these errors seldom occur and when they do, it is a big deal, hence all the
57 Bobster2 : This isn't comparable to landing on a taxiway. Why can't people see that? They had permission to be on 34R. That's the key here. That means that any p
58 DL Widget Head : According to what I read in the article cited on this thread (below), they took off on the wrong runway. One only has to look to the Comair incident
59 Bisbee : I wonder if Senator Kerry will want the pilots sent to Iraq for landing on the wrong runway?
60 Bisbee : I meant taking off. lol!
61 OPNLguy : Notwithstanding that my #43 was in specific response to the #42 that was asking specifically about Alaska being in the news, etc., using the wrong ru
62 F9Animal : I knew you were. I had to get it out in the air, before someone else beat me to it. We have to consider the possibilities though!
63 F9Animal : Incidents like this remind us that humans make mistakes. I have to admit, I accidentally turned the wrong way on a one way street last night. When I r
64 Bobster2 : ATC was watching and fully aware that it was safe them to continue the takeoff. That's why I say the system worked. There was nothing to be gained by
65 BigOrange : It's common practice, once the new runway layout is in place, i.e. it would be possible for an pilot to make a mistake, then they add it to all the c
66 Bobprobert95 : Before CVG opened it's new runway 36L/18R they started calling the old 36L/18R, 36C/18C for some time. Nothing new there. JB
67 KalsinBay : I must be 80 years old instead of less than that age. When I was an air traffic controller, there were right runways and left runways when there was m
68 Clickhappy : Follow up on this thread (and the topic at hand before it became a bunch of people arguing over runways at different airports): Alaska has suspended t
69 OPNLguy : Thanks for the update; glad to hear that they were not arbitrarily canned.
70 UAL757 : At least they weren't taking off in KLEX!
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