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How Is Jet Airways' LHR-ATQ Service Doing?  
User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7304 times:

Jet Airways began its three weekly service from London Heathrow to Amritsar (ATQ) in August this year. The flight is operated by the following A332 with a configuration of 30C/196Y.

I was wondering if anyone knew how well this service is doing for Jet. Considering Jet is the only carrier on the direct route between LHR and ATQ, one could assume they are doing very well. London, indeed Britain has a very large Punjabi/Sikh population (the largest outside India) and for many years these passengers have used one-stop flights only offered by HY and T5 to get to ATQ - this can clearly be seen by the many flights HY and T5 have to LHR and BHX. AI began a direct flight to BHX (and YYZ) from ATQ in 2004 and recently upgraded the flight to six weekly due to high demand. If we consider the fact that London has a larger Punjabi/Sikh population than Birmingham, then again we could assume that 9W are doing well on this route.

Whilst browsing through the net's many online travel agencies, I found an interesting India flight sale advert from 9W on Opodo.co.uk (a large online travel site jointly owned by BA, AF, AZ, IB, KL, LH, EI, OS, AY and Amadeus).

Click HERE to view

I thought it was interesting to see cheap flights to many Indian cities, but none to Amritsar (ATQ)! Could this mean the Amritsar flight does not require advertising to maintain high loads/profit because it is performing well?

I know Jet have recently announced a loss on their combined international operations and so we can't tell how ATQ is going, but I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on loads. I know loads do not = profit, but nevertheless it would be interesting to see this information. Also, have 9W executives made an statements to the media or Indian press regarding ATQ. I know they have made some statements regarding BOM/DEL regarding competition, but I haven't heard anything regarding ATQ. Also, Jet were planning to operate the route six times a week, but had to reduce this due to the failure of the merger with S2 - has this/can this hurt/help the profitability of the route?

If you don't have any info, you can post your own comments as to whether you think the flight is or isn't profitable - I would interested to hear your views.

Thank you very much  Wink
Concorde001

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3262 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 7240 times:

Seat availability on LHR-ATQ sector for the next few days:

03/Nov: C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4 N4 L4 Q4 S0 K0 H0 V4 O4
04/Nov: C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4 N4 L4 Q0 S0 K0 H0 V0 O4
05/Nov: C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4 N4 L4 Q4 S0 K0 H0 V0 O4
10/Nov: C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4 N4 L4 Q4 S0 K0 H0 V0 O4
11/Nov: C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4 N4 L4 Q4 S4 K0 H0 V0 O4
12/Nov: C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4 N4 L4 Q4 S4 K0 H0 V0 O4

I don't know about 9W's fare codes, but assuming that Q, S are the mid-level fares (earn 50% miles), K is lower still (earns 25% miles), H, V are the cheapest buckets (no miles earned), it seems like the cheapest fares are sold out on most flights, and only Q and S level fares available for the next weekend flights.

Hence does seem like the flight's not doing too badly, else we'd definitely see the cheapest fares available for sale.

Does anyone know if O is the fare code for redemption or is this the cheapest ticket class on 9W?

Disclaimer: These stats are not from the 9W system, they're yanked out of ITN. I'm not sure how accurate 9W's availability is on ITN.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offline15A From India, joined Jan 2006, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7098 times:

ITN should be reliable since 9W uses the ITN system for its ebookings as well

User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7065 times:

I have just looked at some business class fares for LHR-ATQ rtn on the internet for March '07 and I have some very cheap fares from Jet Airways.

While the cheapest economy class fare to Amritsar starts around the £450+ mark (significantly higher than BA, VS, AI, 9W's cheapest fares to DEL/BOM), the business class fares are significantly cheaper!

Jet Airways are charging only £876 for a return BUSINESS CLASS ticket from London to Amritsar! To DEL and BOM the cheapest business class fare starts around £1100 with VS/AI etc.!

Can this be right? Are 9W regularly selling business fares for a mere £900 on this route? If they are, I am concerned about the profitability of the route! Economy fares seem to be relatively high in comparison to other Indian routes, whereas business fares are low.


User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7014 times:

On balance I would also expect that 9W has a much better shot at LHR-ATQ than DEL or BOM in particular. Also looks like it judging by the available fares. However, I would expect that there would have to be some sort of fare-parity between LHR-DEL and LHR-ATQ; after all, if you're going to southern Punjab or Haryana, it's probably as easy to go to DEL. But competition on DEL is not as fierce (yet anyway) as on BOM, so I guess it does make sense if 9W made money on the route.

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 3):
Jet Airways are charging only £876 for a return BUSINESS CLASS ticket from London to Amritsar! To DEL and BOM the cheapest business class fare starts around £1100 with VS/AI etc.!

Can this be right? Are 9W regularly selling business fares for a mere £900 on this route? If they are, I am concerned about the profitability of the route! Economy fares seem to be relatively high in comparison to other Indian routes, whereas business fares are low.

Lately I've seen some CRAZY F/J fares on LHR-BOM. For instance: BOM-LHR-BOM, travelling in October (booking the day before departure!) VS Y+ : 38.000 Rupees (around 450 pounds!!). VS J-Class (Y-like fare basis, but still) same trip: 70.000 Rupees, or 850 pounds!!! (FOR FREAKING UPPER CLASS!!!!). However, maybe things have cooled down a bit after BD has pulled out and the busy season has set in. Also, the fare gap between Y and J is generally more narrow than on Transatlantic routes for instance. But MAN if I wasn't a student I'd be doing BOM-LHR-BOM just for the bar and massage on VS' J!

Kevin777



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6914 times:

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 4):
But competition on DEL is not as fierce (yet anyway) as on BOM, so I guess it does make sense if 9W made money on the route.

Thanks for your comments Kevin777. With regards to LHR-DEL, even though there are only 1/2 less flights a day than LHR-BOM, I think you are right that DEL is less competitive. For example, from all the promotional activity for Indian flights that I have seen, flights to BOM are invariably cheaper than DEL. But I'm not sure DEL is profitable for 9W - before they even began ATQ, they were making losses on DEL and BOM.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 4):
Lately I've seen some CRAZY F/J fares on LHR-BOM. For instance: BOM-LHR-BOM, travelling in October (booking the day before departure!) VS Y+ : 38.000 Rupees (around 450 pounds!!). VS J-Class (Y-like fare basis, but still) same trip: 70.000 Rupees, or 850 pounds!!! (FOR FREAKING UPPER CLASS!!!!).

That is amazing! But for such a competitive route, it is perhaps understandable that fares may drop to these levels. However, 9W is the only carrier on the direct LHR-ATQ route. Surely £900 for business class is too low when you have a monopoly?

Incidentally, I have just checked jetairways.com and they are promoting their LHR-ATQ route...but not on price interestingly!


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4802 posts, RR: 44
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6833 times:

9W also has a good chunk of USA and Canada originating traffic on board its LHR-ATQ flight as it markets its ATQ route as ONE STOP via LHR due to the many nonstop options offered by AC, UA and VS (their trans-atlantic interline partners) from North America's key Punjabi/Sikh cities such as YVR, YYZ, NYC, IAD, ORD, LAX and SFO.

User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6735 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6):
9W also has a good chunk of USA and Canada originating traffic on board its LHR-ATQ flight as it markets its ATQ route as ONE STOP via LHR due to the many nonstop options offered by AC, UA and VS (their trans-atlantic interline partners) from North America's key Punjabi/Sikh cities such as YVR, YYZ, NYC, IAD, ORD, LAX and SFO.

Really?
I had thought considering the timing of 9W's ATQ flight, connection opportunities to the US and Canada would not be possible, or severely limited.

9W's ATQ-LHR has the following schedule:

9W 124 Amritsar 1425 London 1905 Friday, Saturday & Sunday

9W's LHR-ATQ has the following schedule:

9W 123 London 2235 Amritsar 1135 Friday, Saturday & Sunday

If we suggest that passengers do not prefer connection times longer than four hours, then only the following connections are possible:

New York

Outbound BA0183 LHR JFK 20:15 22:50
Inbound BA0178 JFK LHR 09:00 20:40

Outbound AA0141 LHR JFK 20:05 22:45
Inbound AA0142 JFK LHR 08:30 20:25

Outbound VS0017 LHR EWR 20:15 22:50
Inbound VS0018 EWR LHR 08:20 20:00


Toronto

Outbound AC0859 LHR YYZ 21:05 00:20
Inbound AC0868 YYZ LHR 09:00 21:15

It seems connections are limited..severely.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4802 posts, RR: 44
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6688 times:

Actually the flight timings on sabre are different to yours :

9W 124 C7 J7 Z7 I7 Y7 M7*ATQLHR 1350 1740 332 LS 0 FJS /E
T7 U7 N7 L7 Q7 S0 K0 H0 V0

19W 123 C7 J7 Z7 I7 Y7*LHRATQ 2135 1130‡1 332 DB 0 567 DC /E
M7 T7 U7 N7 L7 Q7 S0 K0 H0

So connections both ways to YYZ are good...yes on the return sector with a 540pm arrival into LHR, connections to USA are limited but most travel agents do a open jaw routing the pax to ATQ and return from DEL. Also many Punjabis dont mind also spending the night in LON as they have a friend/relative who they can stay with and then take the next day flight from LHR to USA/CANADA.


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6671 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
Actually the flight timings on sabre are different to yours :

It seems for the winter season, 9W have changed their schedule - the flight now leaves an hour earlier from LHR. But then this means...

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
So connections both ways to YYZ are good

The YYZ connection is not good. In fact it becomes become impossible as the connection time is reduced from 1 hour 20m to just 20m!

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
...yes on the return sector with a 540pm arrival into LHR, connections to USA are limited but most travel agents do a open jaw routing the pax to ATQ and return from DEL. Also many Punjabis dont mind also spending the night in LON as they have a friend/relative who they can stay with and then take the next day flight from LHR to USA/CANADA.

That is interesting, thank you for pointing this out to me. However, do you think passengers prefer open jaw routing or one night layovers in London? I would have thought it would be an inconvenience for passengers.


User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6649 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 5):
That is amazing! But for such a competitive route, it is perhaps understandable that fares may drop to these levels. However, 9W is the only carrier on the direct LHR-ATQ route. Surely £900 for business class is too low when you have a monopoly?

Well, since LHR-ATQ isn't exactly the busiest business corridor, you would in general expect the business fares to be lower - unlike, for instance, the transatlantic market, where business fares often go for 4-5 times the economy fare. So yes, 900 pounds is cheap, but again, it should probably be compared to, say, leisure airlines' premium cabins etc., rather than business fares in general. Also, what is the fare basis for the 900 pound fare? Surely it can't be "real" J, or??? But yes, 900 punds is dead cheap!

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 9):
That is interesting, thank you for pointing this out to me. However, do you think passengers prefer open jaw routing or one night layovers in London? I would have thought it would be an inconvenience for passengers.

I would think the open-jaw alternative is better, at least when compared to a one-day stop in London. But since you're there, why not spend a few more days? In that sense the ATQ-LHR-US alternative is fine.

Btw, does anyone know how it works with the ATQ-flights operationally. I guess (hope!) that they fly some open-jaw like operation, say DEL-LHR-ATQ-LHR-DEL, but does anyone know? They don't position in a 340 right???

Kevin777



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6628 times:

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 10):
Well, since LHR-ATQ isn't exactly the busiest business corridor, you would in general expect the business fares to be lower - unlike, for instance, the transatlantic market, where business fares often go for 4-5 times the economy fare.

I agree, but I still find £900 a bargain price for business class. For example, AI price their lowest business class fare for BHX-ATQ around the £1100 mark - this is on a par with the lowest business class fares on LHR-DEL!

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 10):
So yes, 900 pounds is cheap, but again, it should probably be compared to, say, leisure airlines' premium cabins etc., rather than business fares in general. Also, what is the fare basis for the 900 pound fare? Surely it can't be "real" J, or???

£900 is not the full fare, but heavily discounted fare - probably D/Z. As for comparing it to leisure airlines' premium cabins...I'm not too sure. 9W are offering Bulgari amenity kits, lie flat seats pitched at 82 inches, great food, great wine and lounge access - all of this for the bargain price of £900. It seems they are providing an exclellent service at a price cheaper than AI!


User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6603 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 11):
As for comparing it to leisure airlines' premium cabins...I'm not too sure. 9W are offering Bulgari amenity kits, lie flat seats pitched at 82 inches, great food, great wine and lounge access - all of this for the bargain price of £900. It seems they are providing an exclellent service at a price cheaper than AI!

Right; you won't find any charter airline with a premium service featuring lie-flat seats etc. I was more referring to it as a principle, since travellers in J on LHR-ATQ more often than not would be upscale leisure travellers. And again, no matter what 900 pounds is dead cheap! Btw you know what the rules are for those 900 pound ATQ-LHR fares (D/Z?).

As for Air India I guess they aren't much competition service-wise!!.. They have lie-flat in F now, but not in J. I'm flying them on a short hop BOM-AMD in a few weeks with an A310, trying out their J-class - 3.800 rupees one-way (real J-fare, I don't think they have discounted J fares on that route at least). What's that? 40-45 pounds for a business class trip??? NICE!!  Smile And AirIndia and the 310 will be off my list o things to do in life!

Kevin777



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6444 times:

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 12):
Right; you won't find any charter airline with a premium service featuring lie-flat seats etc. I was more referring to it as a principle, since travellers in J on LHR-ATQ more often than not would be upscale leisure travellers. And again, no matter what 900 pounds is dead cheap!

Thanks for explaining!  Wink

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 12):
Btw you know what the rules are for those 900 pound ATQ-LHR fares (D/Z?)

Here you are:

Stay at Destination
Minimum: 0 days
Maximum: 360 days
Applicable seasons
Start: 01. October 2006
End: 07. December 2006

Changing costs/fees
Cancellation (before ticketing): £ 35
Cancellation (after ticketing): £ 135
No show: 100%
Rebooking (before ticketing): 100%
Rebooking (after ticketing): £ 65
Rebooking (after departure): 100%

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 12):
40-45 pounds for a business class trip??? NICE!!

Couldn't agree more!  Wink

I wonder how 9W are doing on LHR-ATQ, in terms of bookings for the coming busy period for travel to India?


User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6426 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 13):
Here you are:

Stay at Destination
Minimum: 0 days
Maximum: 360 days
Applicable seasons
Start: 01. October 2006
End: 07. December 2006

Changing costs/fees
Cancellation (before ticketing): £ 35
Cancellation (after ticketing): £ 135
No show: 100%
Rebooking (before ticketing): 100%
Rebooking (after ticketing): £ 65
Rebooking (after departure): 100%

Thanks! Apart from no min stay it looks a lot like a Y-fare basis.. but still, I doubt they sell more than a few real J seats on each flight, so the 900 pound fares must fill up a lot in the cabin.. Must be a tough one economically in the long run

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 13):
I wonder how 9W are doing on LHR-ATQ, in terms of bookings for the coming busy period for travel to India?

I really don't know; but I guess most routes to India do fine during the winter season - the trick is to survive year-round. The same as for European LCCs: It takes little brain to run a leisure-focused LCC profitably during the summer holiday season, but the trick is to survive through low-yielding winter months..

One of my friends is flying BOM-LHR tomorrow though on 9W, he'll be back in 5 days or so, I'll ask him to keep an eye on the load-factor!..

Kevin777



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6414 times:

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 10):
I guess (hope!) that they fly some open-jaw like operation, say DEL-LHR-ATQ-LHR-DEL, but does anyone know? They don't position in a 340 right???

They fly a DEL-ATQ positioning leg on Friday mornings and back on Monday afternoons.


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6409 times:

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 14):
Thanks!

No problem!

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 14):
I doubt they sell more than a few real J seats on each flight, so the 900 pound fares must fill up a lot in the cabin.

I think you may be right there - but I think there are only a few of these £900 fares - I have just checked some business fares for Dec and they seem to be averaging £1100!

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 14):
One of my friends is flying BOM-LHR tomorrow though on 9W, he'll be back in 5 days or so, I'll ask him to keep an eye on the load-factor!..

Thank you for that - it is very kind of you. The trick is now to find someone with real figures on LHR-ATQ! Where are all the India based a.netters gone?

By the way Kevin777, welcome to my Respected Users list - you have been very helpful!  Wink

Concorde001


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6398 times:

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 15):
They fly a DEL-ATQ positioning leg on Friday mornings and back on Monday afternoons.

Is that so the A330 can be used on DEL-LHR for the remainder of the week? If so, what does 9W do with the A343?

Thanks
Concorde001


User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6391 times:

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 15):
They fly a DEL-ATQ positioning leg on Friday mornings and back on Monday afternoons.

Thanks..!.. A bit surprised there I must admit, it is expensive to get a 343 in the air for what, 45 mins(?), just to start its route. But okay, it is spread over three return flights, so it could be worse. However, if they did do some open-jaw stuff via LHR they could also offer higher frequencies; but I guess the ATQ market isn't really sensitive to frequencies any way. Is it a 100 % nonrev positioning flight or do they take up pax in DEL maybe?

Kevin777



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6391 times:

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 18):
Is it a 100 % nonrev positioning flight or do they take up pax in DEL maybe?

It is sold as a standalone DEL-ATQ leg, with connections at ATQ onward to London.


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6383 times:

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 18):
A bit surprised there I must admit, it is expensive to get a 343 in the air for what, 45 mins

They use an A332 on LHR-ATQ, not A343!

Also, Jet fly DEL-ATQ-DEL daily with an ATR.


User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6295 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 16):
I think you may be right there - but I think there are only a few of these £900 fares - I have just checked some business fares for Dec and they seem to be averaging £1100!

But still, 1.100 punds in the high season is not too good for J-class.. even if it is "cheap" J-class, that is, the airline has no expenses to rebooking, cancellation, lower LF's to offer flexibility etc.

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 16):
By the way Kevin777, welcome to my Respected Users list - you have been very helpful!

Thanks!!  Smile

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 19):
It is sold as a standalone DEL-ATQ leg, with connections at ATQ onward to London.



Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 20):
They use an A332 on LHR-ATQ, not A343!

Now that's more like it! That means they don't fly empty DEL-ATQ, and with a 332 short hops are hardly a problem economically. Nice done, 9W! Just looked at the DEL-ATQ hop, 1 hour flying time, but the price in J: 8.000 Rupees, almost 100 pounds..  eek  .. and you get a "snack" in J but a lunch in Y!!

Kevin777



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
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