Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 40 Posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3259 times:
The french Minister of Transport has witdrawn the traffic-rights for 15 airlinks from Corsair and Star-Airlines.
To those who still believe that France is not a banana -republic - what do you need more !
Air France (Cyril Spinetta) is actually running the show -nobody else!
Goldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1092 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3154 times:
Ah another one !!! It's been since yesterday since you didn't talk about a conspiracy from AF. . Beaucaire, it's your right to not like AF and criticize them all the time but this is really becoming ridiculous and please, stop to say "n'importe quoi" like your terms "judgement". Having read some of your other posts, I think you have a lot more interesting things to bring to this forum.
I'm not a specialist of that but, for Corsair, they withdrawn these routes quite a while ago. As far as I know, you may lose slots for a route when you don't use them for a while. So it may just be this. Otherwise, I don't know why they would lose these slots. If you would be "honest", you would mention that Corsair have been recently granted rights to fly from ORY and LYS to MRU. But that's probably a plot from AF which failed !
May be some A.netters from Corsair or Star can explain us what happened in our Banana Republic
Magyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2779 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter): Air France (Cyril Spinetta) is actually running the show -nobody else!
Well that's nothing really new here, it already happened when Mr White, as I call him, (Christian Blanc) was the CEO of Air France. Air Liberté CEO has written a book a few years ago (Le ciel confisqué) that I found quite intersting about that exact topic. AF is not anymore 100% owned by the French government, but when it comes to old (bad) habits.........
Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter): To those who still believe that France is not a banana -republic - what do you need more !
France is really a Banana republic and the situation is going from bad to worse. And I'm quite afraid of what may happen next year. The country is sinking, and I don't think that anybody of those (the dinosaur, the flimsy clown,...) trying to grasp the leading job will help in any good way.
ERJ170 From United States, joined Apr 2004, 5766 posts, RR: 22 Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2740 times:
Here's a dumb question.. and if it is, I apologize beforehand.. but are US airlines (or any international airline for that matter) still allowed to fly into ORY? or is it strictly CDG?
FoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 312 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2714 times:
I don't really like what Air France do to others french airlines but Beaucaire please stop to criticize all day long what's happened with Air France ! it's boring now !!!!
And if you don't like everything about France, then why are you member on a famous french aviation forum ????
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3): Looking at the routes that SS have to give up, do they even fly them? I mean, I never heard of SS ever flying to LAX, SFO, OAK or even PPT
yes Corsair flew to SFO, OAK, PPT and LAX in the past !
Goldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1092 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2703 times:
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 8): are US airlines (or any international airline for that matter) still allowed to fly into ORY? or is it strictly CDG?
forcing airlines to go to CDG was just the fact of a crazy transport minister who's far away from the govt for long. I think there would be no constraint for a US airline to fly to ORY now. But with ADP, you never know !
Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 7): France is really a Banana republic and the situation is going from bad to worse. And I'm quite afraid of what may happen next year
Don't you think you exaggerate. There ar ea lot of things that are going wrong in France, as in many countries (not to say all). Look at your own country, Hungary, unfortunately it didn't seem to be very quiet and peaceful these last weeks... That doesn't mean that your country is sinking (hopefully not)
Cheers
Thomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 1898 posts, RR: 42 Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2680 times:
Are SS or SE actually operating any of these routes? I do not think so, most probably they are just reassigning traffic rights to AF that these carriers do not use.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
PM From Japan, joined Feb 2005, 5168 posts, RR: 60 Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2622 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter): The french Minister of Transport has witdrawn the traffic-rights for 15 airlinks from Corsair and Star-Airlines.
In the long run these moves are self-defeating. Protecting national champions seldom works for ever. Au contraire... The UK has a far more liberal aviation policy and a far more vibrant industry. Where is the French Virgin Atlantic? Where's the French easyJet? Where's the French bmi? I could go on. The UK certainly employs more people and gives the customer more choice. I know where I'd rather live. (And I wouldn't then have to use the execrable CDG!)
Laxintl From United States, joined May 2000, 12129 posts, RR: 22 Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2621 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3): I never heard of SS ever flying to LAX, SFO, OAK or even PPT.
Corsair served the cities from mid 1990s till about 2002.
Primary routes were ORY-LAX-PPT and ORY-OAK/SFO-PPT utilizing 747SP, B742 and B743 equipment with as many as 3 weekly rotations on behalf of Corsair's parent Nouvelle Frontier.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18437 posts, RR: 60 Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2617 times:
Quoting Goldorak (Reply 12): the story doesn't say that these slots are reassigned to AF. AF doesn't even fly some of these routes (like Oakland, Colombo, Djerba, etc).
You'd think they would allow the airlines to keep them until another carrier wanted to fly them, and then pull them back. What good is taking the right away from one carrier if another carrier doesn't want to fly them either? Are they just putting them back into some sort of "pool" so that anyone can make a case for serving them in the future? Would that include another EU airline?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
LawnDart From United States, joined May 2005, 968 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2498 times:
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 8): Here's a dumb question.. and if it is, I apologize beforehand.. but are US airlines (or any international airline for that matter) still allowed to fly into ORY? or is it strictly CDG?
Middle Eastern and some African carriers use ORY, but all U.S. carriers serve CDG...they were told to move (more than) a few years ago. Whether they can now move back, I don't know.
Quoting PM (Reply 13): Where's the French easyJet?
EasyJet has a sizeable operation in ORY...and CDG...and NCE...and MLH...
Ryanair just opened a hub in MRS.
Quoting PM (Reply 13): I know where I'd rather live. (And I wouldn't then have to use the execrable CDG!)
Execrable? Who uses language like that?!? Why don't you just say crappy when that's what you mean.
And besides, have you ever tried to change planes at NRT?!?
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 40 Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2490 times:
(Are you happy with your countries democratic system ?
Land Prozent
Dänemark 93%
Luxemburg 83%
Finnland 78%
Irland 75%
Niederlande 75%
Österreich 75%
Schweden 74%
Spanien 71%
Belgien 68%
Zypern 63%
Großbritannien 60%
Tschechien 58%
EU-DURCHSCHNITT 56%
Deutschland 55%
Griechenland 55%
Slowenien 54%
Italien 53%
Türkei 50%
Malta 48%
Ungarn 46%
Frankreich 45%
Estland 43%
Lettland 41%
Polen 38%
Portugal 30%
Rumänien 27%
Slowakei 25%
Litauen 23%
Bulgarien 22%
Kroatien 22%
Those are the figures of a most recent inquiry in all European Countries ,requesting if citizens were happy with the democratic system run,applied and as executed in their country.
The dissapointing results for countries like France,Portugal,Croatia ,Germany is a clear indicator ,that the political system is not perceived as representing the citizens concerns.Repetetive scandals involving politicians and high-ranking economic leaders,trade unions and /or regional political "princes" wasting taxes in ridicoulous projetcs.One main-complaint is the apparent lack of punishment for those who breech their political code of conduct.
Politicians and their allies -the so called networks- are basically spending most of their time to cement the networls' power and influence rather than getting on with the citizens problems.
The inquiry ,published in the magazin "Der Spiegel",notes a dramatic drop of acceptance-level of the current political system within the last 12 months. Germany has ,following the inquiry,lost 12 % of acceptance level in one year.
My phrase calling France a banana-republic is to strong a critic-I withdraw the term - but insist there is great concern about the way things are handled in politics - and aviation politics...
[Edited 2006-11-03 07:39:36]
ElmoTheHobo From United States, joined Aug 2006, 1151 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2481 times:
Quoting Goldorak (Reply 1): I'm not a specialist of that but, for Corsair, they withdrawn these routes quite a while ago.
Not too long ago actually, I had some friends come to Los Angeles on Corsair, it was a great deal, like half the fare Air France offered.
Corsair was one of the last ways of getting to Europe for dirt cheap, now LTU and Air India are the only way of doing that from Los Angeles.
It was the French government (in PPT and Paris) that had Corsair moved off the route for that little money pit of an airline, Air Tahiti Nui (yeah they have nice planes and a cool livery, but they sure as hell aren't making money).
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3): I mean, I never heard of SS ever flying to LAX, SFO, OAK or even PPT.
That wasn't their downfall. They sold a lot of tour packages, which filled up most the plane.
Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 6): Well , I think it (France) is not far off from bening a banana republic.
You're out of your mind. I don't know how people even started calling France a banana republic on this thread. Clearly some of us here are disgruntled and misinformed.
Quoting LawnDart (Reply 16): Whether they can now move back, I don't know.
American tried to move back after the collapse of the terminal at CDG, but ADP would have nothing of it. Orly was far better for American, IMO.
PM From Japan, joined Feb 2005, 5168 posts, RR: 60 Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2461 times:
Quoting LawnDart (Reply 16): EasyJet has a sizeable operation in ORY...and CDG...and NCE...and MLH...
But it's a BRITISH company born of the liberal civil aviation market in that country. French policy seems designed to prevent any such entrepeneurial initiative in France.
Quoting LawnDart (Reply 16): And besides, have you ever tried to change planes at NRT?!?
Nope. But I landed there a week ago and it was a much nicer place than the CDG I'd left. The staff, moreover, were friendly and acted as if they cared. It was also a lot cleaner than CDG.
Kiramakora From India, joined Aug 2006, 413 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2437 times:
Quoting PM (Reply 13): In the long run these moves are self-defeating. Protecting national champions seldom works for ever. Au contraire... The UK has a far more liberal aviation policy and a far more vibrant industry. Where is the French Virgin Atlantic? Where's the French easyJet? Where's the French bmi? I could go on. The UK certainly employs more people and gives the customer more choice. I know where I'd rather live. (And I wouldn't then have to use the execrable CDG!)
France is on terminal decline. Protectionism is not only a characteristic of their aviation sector, but a general sign of a country afraid to change. In any case, it really is sad to see the French be so close-minded. Just come to a trade talk with me - I tell you I am convinced they think its 1930s. HOWEVER, we cannot ever take away their contributions in aviation - aircrafts such as the SSC, the Caravelle, the Airbus and pioneering airlines such as UTA.
Quoting PM (Reply 19): Nope. But I landed there a week ago and it was a much nicer place than the CDG I'd left. The staff, moreover, were friendly and acted as if they cared. It was also a lot cleaner than CDG.
I would rather transit in DEL than CDG - and Delhi is a dump.
Varig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1242 posts, RR: 11 Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2414 times:
Quoting PM (Reply 19): But it's a BRITISH company born of the liberal civil aviation market in that country. French policy seems designed to prevent any such entrepeneurial initiative in France.
and Airbus is the result of the will of states like France and Germany, so what's your point in giving us lessons on liberalism?
if we had been so liberal like wonderfull UK, never Airbus would have existed.
France would never have a TGV network either without state pressure and $$ (yes Beaucaire I know you'll jump on this one)
if France wants to place priorities elsewhere let them do so: Easyjet is still allowed to do a great deal of business over here, and so is Air berlin, Skyeurope,BMI....
therefore I don't understand why we should be called a closed economy, since when we don't do some things, competitors come and do it!!!
France is the number one place for foreign investments in EU ahead of the UK!!
to come back to the main post, of course AF is not behind the court rule, and AF is not about to fly to some of these destinations like CMB or Djerba
AF TW AA NW BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ RG
Toulouse From Ireland, joined Apr 2005, 2665 posts, RR: 60 Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2401 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting PM (Reply 13): The UK certainly employs more people and gives the customer more choice. I know where I'd rather live.
Do so then if that's what you want then, just avoid using their trains, or come to think of it, if you get sick while there, you can pop on a flight over to France and get what is reputed to be the best public health system in the wolrd...
Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 7): France is really a Banana republic and the situation is going from bad to worse.
Words of wisdom, so where did you get them from? I've been living in France for 4 years now, and certainly would NOT consider it anything close to a Banana Republic... what rubbish some people post! The mind boggles. Granted, France is in need of some radical changes, and thankfully the French people seem to be aare of this, just as Beaucaire's statistics in reply 17 show.
Quoting LawnDart (Reply 16): EasyJet has a sizeable operation in ORY...and CDG...and NCE...and MLH...
Yes and are expanding. Shortly will be starting TLS-MAD which is great for me as I fly it frequently and both AF and IB share the monopoly on the route (some 7 flights per day) and seem to have agreed on charging the exact same fares. EZY should change things.
And FR are huge in France also, as you stated below in mentioning the new loc-cost terminal opened at MRS:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 17): My phrase calling France a banana-republic is to strong a critic-I withdraw the term - but insist there is great concern about the way things are handled in politics - and aviation politics...
Yes it is a strong criticism, and glad tos ee you withdraw it. Agreed there needs to be a review of national politics, but all the countries I'm closely involved with all seem to be the same, and from watching the news many other countries seem to also need to review their politics. Bus as I said, for France to continue being the great country it has been, I agree some radical changes are need in government and the top managerial culture.
Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 18): You're out of your mind. I don't know how people even started calling France a banana republic on this thread. Clearly some of us here are disgruntled and misinformed.
Well said.
Quoting PM (Reply 19): But it's a BRITISH company born of the liberal civil aviation market in that country. French policy seems designed to prevent any such entrepeneurial initiative in France.
EZY is a British company, yes, FR is NOT, it's an IRISH company. Anyway, they are well implanted in France now, making it difficult for a French company to start up low cost toc ompete with the strong loco's already here.
Quoting PM (Reply 19): The staff, moreover, were friendly and acted as if they cared
I never get this, I love CDG. Terminal 2 anyway. And I usually find the people to eb just as friendly as elsewhere, but PM you seem to have a rather anti France attitude, has it not occurred to you that this may come through in how you approach people while at CDG, and thus people will respond to you as you treat them... just asking? Anyway, both CDG and LHR are full of immigrant workers. GIve me CDG over LHR any day. Actually, did you see the big international aviation survey the other day, which listed Ryanair as the world's least favourite airline (not saying people don't use it), and listed LHR as the world's least favourite airport. I always avoid LHR and much prefer CDG, nevertheless I don't mind LHR, I really think some people fuss too much about airports.
Quoting PM (Reply 19): It was also a lot cleaner than CDG.
That amazes me. Unless you were in CDG Terminal 1, which I admit is usually dirty and is pretty horrible. Terminal 2 is always spotless, is modern and pleasant.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 40 Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2384 times:
Quoting Toulouse (Reply 22): That amazes me. Unless you were in CDG Terminal 1, which I admit is usually dirty and is pretty horrible. Terminal 2 is always spotless, is modern and pleasant.
Agreed - Terminal 1 is a dump but terminal 2 normally clean ,bright and pleasant to use.ADP still needs to improve on communications and signs to make transfers more easy though.
Delhi airport is no comparison with terminal 2 in CDG - Indian airports are currently a shame for the country and specially Mumbai airport should be levelled .
OzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 1540 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2356 times:
Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 6): Well , I think it (France) is not far off from bening a banana republic.
Elvis777
Is this based on any sound thesis or just some vague, misinformed grudge? If I were living in the US right now in the middle of a seemingly endless series of political fiascos, failed foreign policy and with inconceivable foreign debt, mostly owned by China, if keep a low profile with such terms.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
have you been to CDG1 since the facelift??
not everything is perfect but it has improved a lot
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 23): Terminal 2 is always spotless, is modern and pleasant.
I agree : I know very well MIA LHR MAD LIS CPH and I don't see why CDG would be called a dump compared to these
only MUC left a wonderfull impression to me and AMS comes 2nd.
for the rest as mentioned above it all depends on how you behave when it comes to the supposed horrible ground personnel@CDG...and this applies also at MIA MAD and LHR: people working in these huge hubs don't necessarily have time to make you big smiles and to be over polite: and I speak of experience either as pax or ex-CDG worker
Quoting Toulouse (Reply 22): Do so then if that's what you want then, just avoid using their trains, or come to think of it, if you get sick while there, you can pop on a flight over to France and get what is reputed to be the best public health system in the wolrd...
well said LOL: what our friend from Japan doesn't know is that some chartered bus cross the channel every week with people coming to France for medical consultations... not to mention agreements signed between French hospitals and UK social security schemes about UK people being operated here with the £££ paid directly from UK
but we're diverting now...well at least the UK has Easyjet
AF TW AA NW BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ RG
26 Sebolino: Yes Beaucaire, we all know that France is a dictatorship, ruled by the communists working for Jean-Cyril Spinetta. You have said it numerous times, n
27 Ikarus2006: Well, I would not start a comparison here between the state of "aviation democracy" in France and in the UK when it comes to competition. Since when S
28 Varig md-11: IKARUS2006 don't you have Schiphol to privatize?? ADP is not a state group anymore and the Netherlands is far from that when it comes to Schiphol groe
29 ANother: What, we have 24 post and nobody has blamed the EU! Actually what France has done is implementing some of the guidelines set out in Regulation (EC) N
30 N1120A: Prior to TN's entrance into the market, SS was a major player on the Paris-LAX-PPT route Lots of international airlines fly to ORY and US airlines ar
31 Beaucaire: Sebolino- In my reply 17 I have withdrawn my remark... Being cynical does not change the fundmentals of the french system being deeply currupt and bia
32 Ikarus2006: Varig md-11, did I ever mentioned ADP, CDG or something? I think not. I was simply talking about free competition and airlines + AF power. I do not th
33 PM: Oh, don't get me wrong. I was referring strictly to a more enlightened aviation policy in the UK - not suggesting that things British are invariably
34 PM: BA Connect To Be Sold To Flybe (by TristarSteve Nov 3 2006 in Civil Aviation) Could you imagine this happening in France...?!
35 Teva: As said earlier, most of the traffic rights have been lost because the routes have not been operated for a long time, or are not operated according to
36 Ikarus2006: Teva, I do not think you are adding salt - just stating a fact. The amount of British people looking for a property or going for holidays in France (a
37 Toulouse: Well said PM, glad you cleared that up. I agree and disagree with you. A. what's wrong with protecting the national industry, is that what a governme
38 Varig md-11: do people speak French to us when we go to the UK? no, they do their utmost to speak english as fast as possible!!!! and this remark coming from a Fr
39 Ikarus2006: Varig md-11, Do not get hot, it is not healthy! I said nothing so bad. It is a fact as you said the British speak little French - what can we do if th
40 Varig md-11: IKARUS2006 I don't get hot my friend, geen problem, I am just a French from the south for years we had AOM, and Air Liberté with the arguable end we
41 Cricket: but that is stretching it, wouldn't you say! Have transited in CDG - even had to overnight on the (uncomfortable benches) because of a delayed AZ fli
42 Beaucaire: Being the originator of this thread, I'd like to add some comments ... My criticism is not targeting France and it's citizens or way of life -far from
43 LawnDart: Politicians corrupt? Politicians being two-faced in public and in private??? Politicians going unpunished?!?!? Say it isn't so!!! Beaucaire, you brin
44 Ikramerica: He didn't call it a dump. He only said NRT was cleaner, and the staff far friendlier. And NRT is spotless and the staff incredibly friendly and profe
45 Beaucaire: I read you 5/5 -no problem - the USA are America are the USA ! But France has always this slogan " Egalité-Libertè- Fraternitè" on their majors' h
47 Kappel: To be honest you can't really use those two as comparison. HV is 100% owned by KLM and MP 50% and they generally serve leisure markets that are not i
48 Ikarus2006: Kappel, Thanks for the info. Sounds tragic - could the conclusion be that the Netherlands suffer from the same lack of free competition that can appar
49 Kappel: You've actually answered your own question. the market is too small for a big competitor to KLM. It's a miracle really that KLM has grown so big with
50 Aircellist: Yes; the French can be terrible in that respect. Someone in a restaurant even tried to speak English to my very native French-speaking Quebecer fathe
51 Varig md-11: if you say so... I have many French friends who had the same experience you had in France but with the English language in NYC or London
52 Abrelosojos: = Oh come on. Dont exaggerate now ... -A.
53 Blast: As far as I am concerned, in France business and politics are not two different entities such as in Holland or the Anglo Saxon world is much more the
54 Ikarus2006: Blast, I have to tell you - Business is Politics in Holland too. Only that here things are done much more silently/smoothly. I agree that maybe such b
55 Blast: I must agree, you are right, Holland is not paradise, (I am Dutch myself, lived in Sweden for some time, hence the Swedish flag next to my name). But
56 OzGlobal: Hmmm.. Seems very unusual in my experience. Maybe the problem is with pronounciation, not knowledge of the language. If so, try a DVD-ROM with voice
57 Ikarus2006: We are sliding a bit off topic, but anyway, I admit I only get remarks about my bad French in Paris. I Bretagne or Cote d'Azur I found much more flexi
58 PM: No problem! I have also lived in France (close to Amiens) and continue to have great affection for the place. Indeed, it's the countries I like the m
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. Beaucaire, it's your right to not like AF and criticize them all the time but this is really becoming ridiculous and please, stop to say "n'importe quoi" like your terms "judgement". Having read some of your other posts, I think you have a lot more interesting things to bring to this forum.
From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 12206 posts, 
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well said LOL: what our friend from Japan doesn't know is that some chartered bus cross the channel every week with people coming to France for medical consultations... not to mention agreements signed between French hospitals and UK social security schemes about UK people being operated here with the £££ paid directly from UK
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