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Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?  
User currently offlineCurious From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 236 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4016 times:

Do you believe that the market is fully taken or could others on a major or niche level start and competite?

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19186 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3980 times:

Lots of room - there's considerable potential left - but not as airlines like FR and U2. Instead, I believe there's a lot of opportunities by taking advantage of niche markets; for example, you could have a Lyon-based, DH4 operator, from where it could fly domestically to, amongst others, Nantes, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Biarritz, Lille, Ajaccio (greatly increased frequencies during the summer) and other Corsican destinations, and, internationally, to, for example, Milan, Venice, Pisa, Rome, Barcelona, Madrid, Amsterdam and Prague. Then create a second base in Bordeaux, then a third in Toulouse, etc., from where they could fly to virtually the same destinations, etc.

Airfares from Vienna to key Eastern European destinations, for example Sofia, Bucharest, Kiev and Moscow, are normally absurdly expensive, at £250-300 for normal-priced return, despite short flights. Hence, there could be the potential there based on the obvious demand - there's a number of flights - and the very high airfares. But then Vienna's charges are very high and permission might be hard to receive on those routes (except Bulgaria and Romania which join the EU next year)...



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 826 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3962 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 1):
Airfares from Vienna to key Eastern European destinations, for example Sofia, Bucharest, Kiev and Moscow, are normally absurdly expensive, at £250-300 for normal-priced return, despite short flights. Hence, there could be the potential there based on the obvious demand - there's a number of flights - and the very high airfares.

And that's SkyEurope's chance from BTS/BUD/PRG to compete with lower fares and lower cost.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

Hmmm.......probably not. Other than niche markets in France and Eastern Europe, Europe has tons of LCCs already.


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

I believe that there is certainly a market to MOW - if you look, most scheduled flights (there are of course some exceptions!) cost £250+ return. For example the Istanbul to London is of a similar flight duration with flight starting from the £100 mark, and EZY are offering flights there. There is word of a Moscow based LCC starting up, but flights to the EU are not expected for several years. Perhaps an oppertunity for an LCC to MOW is there - bar Gexx.com.

User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3861 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 1):
Lots of room - there's considerable potential left - but not as airlines like FR and U2. Instead, I believe there's a lot of opportunities by taking advantage of niche markets; for example, you could have a Lyon-based, DH4 operator, from where it could fly domestically to, amongst others, Nantes, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Biarritz, Lille, Ajaccio (greatly increased frequencies during the summer) and other Corsican destinations, and, internationally, to, for example, Milan, Venice, Pisa, Rome, Barcelona, Madrid, Amsterdam and Prague. Then create a second base in Bordeaux, then a third in Toulouse, etc., from where they could fly to virtually the same destinations, etc

I think the European LCC-market is generally saturated and growth will follow normal economic growth rates in the future. However, this growth I can see coming from FR, U2, AB etc. A DH4 operator will have fundamental problems being an LCC; most notably lack of scale. Selling tickets at fares from 29 Euros and above you need some volume, and a DH4 doesn't have this. FlyI tried it in the US with regional jets instead of DH4's - okay, also a somewhat different setting, but still - didn't work. Small a/c and an pure LCC-model don't go hand in hand. As for the DH4, it's very efficient on short routes, but on for instance LYS-PRG it would be too slow and fuel-inefficient.

Quoting Jano (Reply 2):
And that's SkyEurope's chance from BTS/BUD/PRG to compete with lower fares and lower cost.

Eh.... maybe... but SkyEurope is loosing money by the truckloads... and are currently paying people to fly with them..

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 4):
I believe that there is certainly a market to MOW - if you look, most scheduled flights (there are of course some exceptions!) cost £250+ return. For example the Istanbul to London is of a similar flight duration with flight starting from the £100 mark, and EZY are offering flights there. There is word of a Moscow based LCC starting up, but flights to the EU are not expected for several years. Perhaps an oppertunity for an LCC to MOW is there - bar Gexx.com.

Problem with MOW is that it doesn't come under the common European sky; that is, you can't just open a route to MOW. There are restrictions in the bilateral, and many LCC's simply stay away from these markets because it's too much of a hassle. However, dba has started on DME from three German cities.

Kevin777



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

A Paris based LCC could make a killing. Air France isn't exactly cheap and the Ile-de-France market alone is humugous.

User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3799 times:

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 5):
Problem with MOW is that it doesn't come under the common European sky; that is, you can't just open a route to MOW.

This is true, but if there is most definately a market out there for more LCCs operating into an out of Europe from Russia.


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4294 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 5):
Problem with MOW is that it doesn't come under the common European sky; that is, you can't just open a route to MOW.

Also it's still hard to get a visa for Russia as EU citizen. You have to be invited and show hotel bookings. A LCC won't like the extra hassle to check if everyone has a proper visa and the obligation to take pax back when they are refused entry, which will lengthen downtime in Russia.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3784 times:

Serbia can benefit a lot from LCCs. Ryanair is interested in this market, Germanwings already started service to Belgrade while the first Serbian LCC Centavia is having legal problems to get traffic rights for its flight to Zagreb and Podgorica.


R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2171 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3721 times:
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What about Ukraine? Does Kiev and other big cities have a lot of LCC flights from domestic carriers and/or the big West European LCCs? Does Ukraine have open-skies with the rest of Europe?


Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2232 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3714 times:

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 9):
Serbia can benefit a lot from LCCs. Ryanair is interested in this market, Germanwings already started service to Belgrade while the first Serbian LCC Centavia is having legal problems to get traffic rights for its flight to Zagreb and Podgorica.

Well over 9 million people, and as it looks right now, will be without a single home-based airline as of April next year... how sad  Sad



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 32
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 11):
Well over 9 million people, and as it looks right now, will be without a single home-based airline as of April next year... how sad

Now, I'm confused. Are you saying that JAT will go out of business?



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineCurious From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3638 times:

I believe that no LCC can start in Europe and grow to a evena medium level. If their is a attractive route surely the other major LCC's will move in on it once it has been discovered.

I think the remaining oppourtunity for new LCC airlines is in Mideast, Africa and possibly South America?


User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

Quoting Curious (Reply 13):
I think the remaining oppourtunity for new LCC airlines is in Mideast, Africa and possibly South America?

Africa????? Except for South Africa and maybe a bit in Morocco and Egypt (don't even think that will happen too soon), this ain't gonna happen for a looooong time, if ever. Virgin Nigeria is an exception, I wouldn't exactly call it an LCC, but "just" a "normal" airline.

Kevin777



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3568 times:

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 14):
Africa????? Except for South Africa and maybe a bit in Morocco and Egypt (don't even think that will happen too soon), this ain't gonna happen for a looooong time, if ever. Virgin Nigeria is an exception, I wouldn't exactly call it an LCC, but "just" a "normal" airline.

China is currently putting in tremendous effords to control manufacturing,construction ,consumer goods and Infrastructure opportunities in Africa.They move very quickly.There are identified shortcommings in terms of airtransport in Western-central Africa (Cameron,Gabon,Congo,Mali,Liberia etc..)Nigeria is a market by itself.
I think we will see developpements in Africa next year.LCC's do have an Internet-sale based model,which does not work in Afrca et this moment for lack of access to internet and unavailability of credit-card based aconomy.
But the need for increased air-travel is identified and will be addressed.
RAM (Royal Air Maroc )have a clear strategy to move more agressively into parts of the region.
There would be a market for an algerian domestic LCC!

[Edited 2006-11-05 08:48:13]


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