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Embraer Lineage  
User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

I've been reading about the Embraer Lineage 1000, which is a BJ based off of the E190.
What I am wondering is who this BJ is aimed at. From first glance it appears to be larger than the Gulfstream V and the Bombardier Global Express. Is this their attempt to gain some customers who would usually go for a BBJ?

Does Embraer have anything to compete with the Gulfstream V and the Global Express, and other jets of this size? (Legacy 600?)

I found an article from May of this year and it makes ti sound like that the Lineage 1000 isn't the only larger business jet planned by Embraer.

"In the near term, the company’s growth engine will be its Phenom 100 VLJ and the derivative Phenom 300 light jet. Longer term, Embraer is considering executive versions of its 170 and 190 airliners, but Affonso revealed that his company is looking at a dedicated platform for “a large, long-range business jet.” While the manufacturer’s light and super-midsize jets have the Phenom and Legacy monikers, respectively, a spokeswoman said Embraer’s large business jets would follow suit and have another, as yet unannounced name."

An E190 derived BJ is overkill for most companies, but something based off of the E170 could be within some budgets.

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3274 times:

The Lineage 1000 is aimed at Airbus' A318 Elite. Click tab 4 of their comparative layouts and sections on their Executive Aviation webpage.

Quoting KSUpilot (Thread starter):
but something based off of the E170 could be within some budgets.

I speculated about it in this thread.....

First Embraer "Air Force One"? (by DEVILFISH Oct 3 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

But Cazito pointed out that the two E170s for government transportation on firm order in their 6/30/06 summary were for TAME, thus the government/military transport designation.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

Thanks, I'll start reading through that thread.

Though it seems that the Lineage 1000 has stirred up a little more than just Airbus, as a week or so ago Gulfstream announced it is looking into a larger business jet.

I'm thinking we will eventually see some form of a corporate version of the E170, or something to fill the gap between the Legacy 600 and the Lineage 1000.

When looking at an aircraft the size of the Gulfstream V and the Global Express, what has the advantage, a rear-mounted, T-Tail config, or Embraer's underwing config? The G5 isn't a small aircraft, so I'd assume for maintanance, something like the Lineage would be easier to work on, as the engine is right there.

I really hope we see an E170 derived Lineage, or a smaller Lineage that is derived from the E-Jets.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8961 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 2):
When looking at an aircraft the size of the Gulfstream V and the Global Express, what has the advantage, a rear-mounted, T-Tail config, or Embraer's underwing config? The G5 isn't a small aircraft, so I'd assume for maintanance, something like the Lineage would be easier to work on, as the engine is right there.

Yes, but tail mounted engines means the aircraft is lower to the ground so it's easier to climb on board.

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 2):
I really hope we see an E170 derived Lineage, or a smaller Lineage that is derived from the E-Jets.

I hope so too.

And once the P-series are flying, would be nice if EMB came up with something in between the P300 and the Legacy (maybe a couple of jets like the P-family?).

Cheers



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

Quoting KSUpilot (Thread starter):
Does Embraer have anything to compete with the Gulfstream V and the Global Express, and other jets of this size? (Legacy 600?)

To be honest No. Although the Lineage will be larger then the GV, it will not have the range. The Legacy is smaller then the GIV, but is priced nearly 50% less.. and for that price you get a complete aircraft paint and all...try and do that with a Gulfstream

[Edited 2006-11-04 03:58:38]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3198 times:

What Mister Affonso told me last May at EBACE in GVA when they presented the Linage 1000 to public, was that Embraer wants a whole family of corporate jets. He was talking about a family of "Phenoms", "Legacies", and "Linages". Numbers should eventually fill the whole range from 100 being the smallest up to the 1000 being the largest. So you can make up your picture yourself. With having a "100", a "300, a "600" and a "1000" model, we can see up to six more aircraft.

I rather think they defined the baby with the Phenom 100 and the Flagship with the Linage 1000 but we shall see more Linages coming, based probably on the 170. They were also talking about a mid-size, fitting between the Legacy 600 and the Phenom 300.

Putting the 170 cabin on a 190 wing may eventually result in an extremely capable long range aircraft. The Linage 1000 isn't offering this range a G550 or a Global Express does, as on the base of the 190 they came to a maximum weight they couldn't pass. Combined with the smaller cabin could give a good gain in fuel load.
Let's see, until yet they did extremely good, I am confident they will bring more great aircraft to the market.

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink


User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
And once the P-series are flying, would be nice if EMB came up with something in between the P300 and the Legacy (maybe a couple of jets like the P-family?).

That would work out great and deffinatly think it is likely. The P100 is a bit small for most companies. Some may go for the P300, however, if Embraer truly wants to get into the corporate jet market they need something inbetween the P300 and Legacy.


User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3185 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
The Legacy is smaller then the GIV, but is priced nearly 50% less.. and for that price you get a complete aircraft paint and all...try and do that with a Gulfstream

The Legacy 600 is indeed a very nice aircraft. It does offer a similar cabin volume as the Gulfstreams do. But still, apart from this it can't really be compared with. It does not have the performance of a Gulfstream, neither the comfort. This is mainly because of the aircrafts heritage as a regional jet. It's cabin is relatively noisy, specially in the region of the door. The Legacies wing is very stiff and it's ride in turbulence's is rather hard, about as hard as a small Citation. The Gulfstream on the other hand is smoooooooth and quite and has those wonderful large oval windows, someone sitting in the armchair at FL450+, having the drink in it's hand, can look down to the weather and enjoy the ride.
I would say, the Legacy is a "Volvo top model" while the Gulfstream is the "Mercedes".

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink


User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 3119 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
To be honest No. Although the Lineage will be larger then the GV, it will not have the range. The Legacy is smaller then the GIV, but is priced nearly 50% less.. and for that price you get a complete aircraft paint and all...try and do that with a Gulfstream

Thanks for the explanation, I was having some trouble lining up which aircraft lined up with which.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 5):
So you can make up your picture yourself. With having a "100", a "300, a "600" and a "1000" model, we can see up to six more aircraft.

Wow! That is great news. What would a "400" or a "500" be based off of, the Legacy (ERJ-135) or the Phenom? Obviously the "900" and the "800" will be based off of the E-Jets. A "700" could be based of the ERJ-145.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3058 times:

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 8):
Wow! That is great news. What would a "400" or a "500" be based off of, the Legacy (ERJ-135) or the Phenom? Obviously the "900" and the "800" will be based off of the E-Jets. A "700" could be based of the ERJ-145.

Slow down.. that is not great news, that is no news at all. There is no current plans to add anymore aircraft to the Executive side.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineAeronut From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
To be honest No. Although the Lineage will be larger then the GV, it will not have the range. The Legacy is smaller then the GIV, but is priced nearly 50% less.. and for that price you get a complete aircraft paint and all...try and do that with a Gulfstream

Most high end business jet customers aren't too concerned about price. They are more concerned about capabilities and brand. Gulfstream is the brand of choice, and to a lesser extent Global Express among the elite. The range issue is interesting, although a ultra-longe range is selling feature (6000+ nm), 90% of flights have trip times less than 3 hours. Lineage will sell, but probably to fractional jet companies and corporatations concerned more about price and less about performance. Maybe I am wrong, but it will take a while for Embraer to build up brand recognition, although this appears to be their strategy.


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 2):
I'm thinking we will eventually see some form of a corporate version of the E170, or something to fill the gap between the Legacy 600 and the Lineage 1000.

I'm hoping to see this aircraft utilizing the 190's wing mated to the 170 fuselage.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Yes, but tail mounted engines means the aircraft is lower to the ground so it's easier to climb on board.

The operator won't sweat over two more steps to get into the aircraft, and as far as cargo areas, these aircraft may have the advantage of actually being lower to the ground. "Shlumping" bags up to the Gulfstreams tail baggage door isn't exactly easy.


User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2955 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
Slow down.. that is not great news, that is no news at all. There is no current plans to add anymore aircraft to the Executive side.

When you are speculating it is good news. There may be no official announcement of this, however, there is no announcement saying they won't. And the indications are that they will be adding to their Executive Fleet.


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2930 times:

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 12):
When you are speculating it is good news.

Except when you are speculating about JetBlue @ STL.  irked 


User currently offlinePenguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2913 times:

increase range? how about a 145 frame with an extra fuel tank in the fuselage where the cargo bin is now, 135 type cabin size and a baggage area right behind it for about 20 bags, a nosewheel chock, aircraft covers, and a extra toilet service kit.

User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2869 times:

Quoting Penguinflies (Reply 14):
increase range? how about a 145 frame with an extra fuel tank in the fuselage where the cargo bin is now, 135 type cabin size and a baggage area right behind it for about 20 bags, a nosewheel chock, aircraft covers, and a extra toilet service kit.

Range and Fuel is something you never have enough. There is always a desire for more Big grin

I see the problem more on the side of the ERJ's airframe. The actual Legacy 600 is a pretty good balance between speed, range and economy. It can lift filled up to the top 8 passengers with all their bags and go for 3250 Nautical Miles which is just about the amount of people that can be carried in comfort in the actual cabin. Real good to know is, that an Embraer does normally perform as advertised or better, something that can't be said about all the competitors on the market of business jets. So with it's actual range, the Legacy 600 can fly to most points in the world with one stop, if the route is not "ultra long". But I can do for example a São Paulo - Switzerland with one stop on Cape Verde, the same counts for Bangkok with a stop in the Emirates. If you want to go without this single stop, the range (and fuel load) must be considerably more and then, I am pretty sure, the capabilities of the airframe won't support without a major redesign. Not to forget, that the Legacy 600 is already heavier than the normal E145 aircraft.

I am pretty sure, it's climb and cruise performance would suffer a lot and payload comes to be close to nothing. The only we would gain, is a little bit of "ferry - range" but still, the fuel taken along does affect economy as well.

Another aspect is also, that range is good, but flexibility is even better. The actual Legacy 600's flexibility is rather good, as the plane can land with around 5000 Kilos of fuel on board. This way an intermediate stop can be done or the crew can fill the plane where fuel prices are low. This is actually what we do.

So I think the actual design is rather good. If they would improve the Legacy 600 I would rather like to see them coming along with the mods the 145 XR has to allow a higher full flap speed then the actual 145 knots, which are a pain or the possibility to go faster than 250 KIAS (limited by autopilot even to 240 KIAS) below FL100.

Let's see what they will build for us. I am pretty sure more good stuff will come.

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

Quoting Penguinflies (Reply 14):
increase range? how about a 145 frame with an extra fuel tank in the fuselage where the cargo bin is now

Just like the Legacy....



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 2774 times:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 11):
I'm hoping to see this aircraft utilizing the 190's wing mated to the 170 fuselage.

This would be a nice alternative to the GV and the Global Express. I'm hoping we will see this aircraft become a reality in the near future. It will be really something.

If they do place the 190 wing on the 170 fuselage, thus creating a "Lineage 900", is there a posibility for a shortened 170 fuselage for a Lineage 800? Look at Bombardier, they've shortened and stretched the same basic fuselage for many of their aircraft families.

Legacy135, thanks for the interesting read. It is nice to hear from someone who has flying experience with the aircraft in question.
If you don't mind me asking, do you enjoy being a coporate pilot? I myself am considering becoming a coporate pilot someday.

[Edited 2006-11-05 07:54:21]

User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

I should also add that the Legacy has really grown on me. I had always written it off as an RJ just trying to be a corporate jet. But it really is a beautiful aircraft. Hopefully we will see some small improvements to make the Legacy 600 even better.

User currently offlinePenguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2674 times:

I stand corrected.

And what I mean was an actual 145 (98-foot) frame with the extra space used for fuel in the mid/rear area. Not just a 135 (86-foot) with that extra tank.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 18):
Hopefully we will see some small improvements to make the Legacy 600 even better.

Improvements..? What's wrong with it right now.......????



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 15):
So I think the actual design is rather good. If they would improve the Legacy 600 I would rather like to see them coming along with the mods the 145 XR has to allow a higher full flap speed then the actual 145 knots, which are a pain or the possibility to go faster than 250 KIAS (limited by autopilot even to 240 KIAS) below FL100.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8961 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2620 times:

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 21):
Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 15):
So I think the actual design is rather good. If they would improve the Legacy 600 I would rather like to see them coming along with the mods the 145 XR has to allow a higher full flap speed then the actual 145 knots, which are a pain or the possibility to go faster than 250 KIAS (limited by autopilot even to 240 KIAS) below FL100.

I wonder if EMB would consider making an ERJ/Legacy-NG. . .nothing too big, just fixing these little things that separate RJs from Biz Jets (cabin noise, more flexible wing (smoother ride), max. altitude, maybe higher cruise speed and/or more range).

At the present time, would it be realistic for EMB to switch the AE 3007 A1E for a newer, more efficient/increased performance engine? Is such an engine available? If so, would it provide significant improvements?

Cheers

[Edited 2006-11-05 23:42:48]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2580 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
I wonder if EMB would consider making an ERJ/Legacy-NG. . .nothing too big, just fixing these little things that separate RJs from Biz Jets (cabin noise, more flexible wing (smoother ride), max. altitude, maybe higher cruise speed and/or more range).

At the present time, would it be realistic for EMB to switch the AE 3007 A1E for a newer, more efficient/increased performance engine? Is such an engine available? If so, would it provide significant improvements?

Interesting idea. How about working some the advancements made with the Phenom jets into the Legacy 600. Small updates really could make thi aircraft even better.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
I wonder if EMB would consider making an ERJ/Legacy-NG. . .nothing too big, just fixing these little things that separate RJs from Biz Jets (cabin noise, more flexible wing (smoother ride), max. altitude, maybe higher cruise speed and/or more range).

They already did that...... There are actually two different generation Legacy's out there. The second generation made many inprovements to lower cabin noise and increase speed.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
25 KSUpilot : I was looking through an old thread from when the Lineage 1000 was first announced and saw some good posts regarding to the E170 with an E190 wing: "N
26 EMBQA : I doubt highly they'll use the E170. My guess would be the E175.
27 KSUpilot : Thinking about it, that does make more sense, as it is a bit larger and closer to the E190. Would they be able to fit more fuel and squeeze more rang
28 Tangowhisky : This will be an interesting concept. When get some time, I will make an estimate on the additional range this configuration can bring over the Lineage
29 Post contains images KSUpilot : Looking forward to seeing that. I would not be surprised if Embraer is crunching the same numbers. Hopefully we will hear/see something soon.
30 Post contains links PPVRA : Don't want to change the subject, but I thought I'll give you guys a heads up on a couple of current threads on the Military Forum: New VIP Aircrafts
31 Tangowhisky : I did some very very rough calculations. The E190AR wing has 38% more fuel carrying capacity than the E175LR wing. That equates to 3537 kg of extra fu
32 KSUpilot : Therefore it won't be easy for Embraer to do, however, it isn't out of their league. This is probably the reason why we saw an E190 derived Lineage f
33 Tangowhisky : Agreed. I would suspect that Embraer could still find ways to stow additional fuel in places like the large cargo holds (sized for 100 pax baggage spa
34 EMBQA : Embraer is way ahead of you. That is where the extra fuel tanks are going to be. There will be no, or very limited below floor cargo space.... much t
35 KSUpilot : So trying to squeeze more range out of the Lineage 1000 is out of the question. So if Embraer wants more range, the answer may lie with E175. I don't
36 EMBQA : The aircraft is not designed for...or intended for a ultra long range market. If you want that, go buy a GV or Global Express
37 KSUpilot : I agree. And I think this was brought up in some of the other threads. Embraer knows that the other biz jets have the battle won for range. But in te
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