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Malaysia 777 Shedding Engine Parts Question.  
User currently offlineBobbidooley From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 64 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7164 times:

Refreing to photo Here

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Photo © Fredrik Granberg



Someone in the comment of the photo suggested that it was a one and a billion shot.

At one time I saw the stats of 777 engine failure. Could anyone come up with a true statistical analysis of what exactly are the odds of witnessing a 777 engine failure on TO, assuming one was able to simultaneously watch every 777 takeoff at once- over lets say 10 years.

Just a curios question.
Thanks,
Bobbi

[Edited 2006-11-06 04:44:59]


Planes make me happy.
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTomascubero From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2005, 525 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7166 times:


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Photo © Fredrik Granberg



Please read next time you post an image in the database so that the author can get the respective views,  Wink thanks!

Tomas.


User currently offlineBobbidooley From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7132 times:

done, thanks for the tip.

However my question still stands:
Someone in the comment of the photo suggested that it was a one and a billion shot.

At one time I saw the stats of 777 engine failure. Could anyone come up with a true statistical analysis of what exactly are the odds of witnessing a 777 engine failure on TO, assuming one was able to simultaneously watch every 777 takeoff at once- over lets say 10 years.

Just a curios question.
Thanks,
Bobbi



Planes make me happy.
User currently offlineTomascubero From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2005, 525 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7101 times:

Quoting Bobbidooley (Reply 2):
done, thanks for the tip.

Anytime my friend, and I'm sorry not to be able to help you with your question!  Sad

Tomas.


User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7083 times:

Quoting Bobbidooley (Reply 2):
At one time I saw the stats of 777 engine failure. Could anyone come up with a true statistical analysis of what exactly are the odds of witnessing a 777 engine failure on TO, assuming one was able to simultaneously watch every 777 takeoff at once- over lets say 10 years.

Trying to catch one your self? Well, it is pretty rare, especially on a 777. More rare than catching tail scrapes I would think. On this data base, there is this picture of the MS 777 engine failure, there is an U.S. airways 767 with engine flame out, and a VASP MD-11 with engine flame out. That is about it.


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Photo © Ruben Hofs
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Photo © M.Oertle



User currently offlineTomascubero From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2005, 525 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7021 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 4):
Trying to catch one your self? Well, it is pretty rare, especially on a 777

Indeed extremely rare but three flame outs occured in SJO in less than a month, a Delta 757, a Continental 757 and I caught an American 737-800 in photo but I never got the flame, it was just too difficult and I was very worried when I took about 15 shots, the flame last about 0.1ms, like the flash of a camera, and this happens about 5-6 times, very scary:

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5677384

I need to submit this to A.net as soon as I get an empty slot!

Cheers!
Tomas.

BTW: My 100th post here at A.net, I am very happy I purchased a Premium Membership, this forum is AWESOME! Big grin


User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6820 times:

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 5):
BTW: My 100th post here at A.net, I am very happy I purchased a Premium Membership, this forum is AWESOME!

Being your 100th, they might not scold you for this, but you are not allowed to put Jetphotos.net links on this site.


User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6800 times:

Also, may just be me, but the photo looks a bit iffy.
What is that orange blob???


User currently offlineTomascubero From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2005, 525 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6790 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 6):
Being your 100th, they might not scold you for this, but you are not allowed to put Jetphotos.net links on this site.

I knew it but I didn't find this in any of the rules, I will never do this again  worried 


User currently offlineTomascubero From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2005, 525 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6776 times:

Quoting Trekster (Reply 7):
What is that orange blob???

That is product of the flame which probably happened a millisecond or so before this shot was taken.


User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6725 times:

Just FYI, it wasn't an "engine failure" -- from the original thread, part of the D duct (engine cowling?) delaminated. The a/c landed with the engine still operating.


I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3982 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6527 times:

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 10):
part of the D duct (engine cowling?) delaminated. The a/c landed with the engine still operating.

The D Duct is sometimes called a C duct. It is the cowling that includes the thrust reverser and covers the rear half of the engine. It is in two halves. When you change an engine, the D Duct stays on the wing. On the B777 it is a Boeing part.


User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6157 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 11):

Thanks for your explanation Steve. It's a rare treat to get a clear explanation like this that doesn't come with the "what are you doing here if you don't know this?" kind of attitude -- welcome to my RU list!

Bren



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineBobbidooley From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6093 times:

To clarify, exterior engine parts came off and burned in the hot jet blast? Can you explain in laymen terms for us non MX superusers?

Thanks,
Bobbi



Planes make me happy.
User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6023 times:

Quoting Bobbidooley (Reply 13):
Can you explain in laymen terms for us non MX superusers?

Bobbi,

I'm not an MX person at all, but I will try to explain what I understand from others' posts.

Basically, NOTHING of the engine itself came off -- when the A/C landed, the engine was complete and actually still operating. So the engine itself was relatively unaffected by this incident.

What happened is that part of the engine cowling/reverse thruster came apart and threw bits of itself into the engine exhaust. This is supposed to be a known fault with 777's. The cowling is designed and built by Boeing.

There is a pic on this site of an MH 777 having its engine replaced where you can see the cowling opened up on the wing.

Does this help? Or have I missed the boat totally?

Bren



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5969 times:

Just out of curiosity, can someone tell me if Malaysia's 777s have RR's, PW's, or GE's on the wing?


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5961 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
can someone tell me if Malaysia's 777s have RR's, PW's, or GE's on the wing

Going back to the original thread on this, I believe they're Royces.



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2684 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5929 times:

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 14):
The cowling is designed and built by Boeing. There is a pic on this site of an MH 777 having its engine replaced where you can see the cowling opened up on the wing.

G'day Brenintw / Bobbidooley   ,

These two photos are of the T - 700 installation on an A330;

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Photo © Julian Adams
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Photo © Lin Sung-Ching


On the left hand photo, you can see the engine with two sections of cowling opened. The cowling that is opened the highest is called the fan cowl, as this cowling covers the fancase area. The cowling behind it is called the "C" / "D" duct or thrust reverser (TR). The "C" / "D" duct or thrust reverser (TR) actually forms part of the bypass air duct.

The right hand photo shows that the fan cowl and "C" duct stay with the strut on engine changes. The engine comes away with two sections of cowling. The aft section is what I believe RR terms an Integrated Nozzle Assembly (INA). The forward section is the nose inlet cowling, which is usually unbolted and fitted onto the engine that will be installed. I think the INA is part of the engine   .

These two photos show the difference in the external cowlings of the T - 700 / A330 and T - 800 / B 777 installations;

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Photo © Raymond Wang
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Photo © Resocha


I have never worked on a T - 800 / B777 combination, but I would assume that the installations are broadly similar. From the photos above, the only major difference that I can see in the external cowlings is that there is no INA on the T - 800   . The TR mechanisms may also be different. The T - 700 / A330 uses a hinged petal configuration, whilst the T - 800 / B777 looks like it uses a translating cowl / blocker door / cascade configuration.

These photos give a clearer look at what happens. The left hand photo shows the raw engine removed from the aircraft (CF6-50?).

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Photo © Petr Popelar
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Photo © Jørgen Syversen


The nose inlet cowl has already been removed from the engine. There are three sections of cowling left on the pylon, from front to back, they are the fan cowl, the "C" / "D" duct or thrust reverser (TR), and the turbine cowling. This installation is on a DC10, but it is also typical of the GE and P&W installations on the B747 / B767. The right hand photo shows the CF6 strut installation on a B742

The RR installation on the 747 was slightly different. On RR RB211-524G2's and D4's the TR was a structural part of the engine, and remained with each engine when it was removed from the aircraft. There was no hinged turbine cowls either.

On the D4, the TR pretty much formed the aft end of the bypass duct. On the G2, the TR was joined with the INA to give the smooth contours of the engine. This combined TR / INA cowling came away with the engine on removal. This can be seen with the photos below, the D4 installation is on the left, the G2 on the right.

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Photo © Torin Wilson
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Photo © JumboJim747


When a G2 or D4 is removed from a 747, the fan cowls are removed manually beforehand, which takes about 10 minutes. Once the engine is removed, all that is left is the strut alone, with no cowlings hanging off it; as seen below.

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Photo © Cecily McCarthy
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Photo © Phil Vabre


Anyway, I am not too sure about this, but I think that the general rule is that anything that remains on the strut is Boeing's or Airbus' responsibility, whilst anything that comes away with the engine is RR's, P&W's or GE's responsibility.

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2006-11-08 09:11:29]


JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5908 times:

Thanks for the very comprehensive explanation JetMech -- once again, it's wonderful to have a friendly and clear answer for us non-mechanical aviation enthusiasts!

To you too, welcome to my RU list.

Bren



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineBlazingCessna From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5892 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 6):
are not allowed to put Jetphotos.net links on this site.

Just out of morbid curiosity, why is this?



Flown on:722, 731, 732, 742, 752, 763, DC8, DC9, DC10, A300, A319, A320, A330, PIC on C172, PA28R, D55, A36, DC3
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3982 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5766 times:

Here is a B777 with Trent 892 engines. The left D Duct and fan cowl are open.
This is 9M-MRI at the end of its repair at ARN.
Big version: Width: 1600 Height: 1200 File size: 421kb
9M-MRI ARN 8 Nov 2006. New D Duct fitted


User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2684 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5732 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 20):
The left D Duct and fan cowl are open.

Does the T - 800 have a separate pair of hinged turbine cowlings behind the "D" duct? Is the exhaust collector surrounding the exhaust bullet plug part of the engine?



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3982 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5588 times:

Quoting JetMech (Reply 21):
Does the T - 800 have a separate pair of hinged turbine cowlings behind the "D" duct? Is the exhaust collector surrounding the exhaust bullet plug part of the engine?

No there are no turbine cowlings. You can see the new exhaust nozzle which is bolted onto the rear of the engine, and is part of it.

Opening up a Trent 800 is simple. Open four fan latches then press one button for each half.
Then open five Duct latches and the v clamp and press one button for each half. All powered by the PDOS hyd pump.


User currently offlineWindshadow From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

What iscausing the scorch and sooting marks on the cone in that last photo? uneven combustion? how bad do marks like that have to get before they cause concern?
thanks for a most interesting thread


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