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Emirates Tim Clark On EK A380 Order..  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15890 times:

Today Tim Clark is speaking out on the large EK A380 order also, after sending auditors, complaining on overweight and announcing he cancelled A340 orders a few weeks back..

http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aviation/10080756.html

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYVRtoYYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 668 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 15808 times:

From the article:

"Compensation is not our target, what we really seek is to give a chance for Airbus to deliver what they promised so that we can assess, because we need that aircraft," Tim Clark, president of Emirates told Gulf News at the World Travel Market in London yesterday.

"We do not seek to strike a balance between aircraft manufacturers, we only need to get what we want, and when we place an order we seek that the manufacturer succeeds because at the end of the day this comes in our interest."

"What induces us to wait for the A380 is that we want it to be a top-rated aircraft, and two years is not a long time in this industry," he said.


Interesting comments as Clark has been alleged to be seeking further compensation, to be threatening to cancel their order, to be moving towards an all-Airbus or all-Boeing fleet, etc. etc. etc.

What stood out was the comment regarding 2 years delay and that timeframe being relatively insignificant in the aviation industry.

I wonder if we shall hear more news from EK that could contradict this latest statement as it seems like new news emerges from EK on a weekly basis.

-YVRtoYYZ


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 15619 times:

"What we really seek is to give a chance for Airbus to deliver what they promised so that we can assess..."

Assess? Sounds to me he's saying he wants to wait until Airbus actually delivers the aircraft before determining what the overall compensation is. That doesn't sound right.

"We do not seek to strike a balance between aircraft manufacturers, we only need to get what we want, and when we place an order we seek that the manufacturer succeeds because at the end of the day this comes in our interest."

Eh? I get what he means, but it's an odd way to say it.

"Clark declared that Emirates won't bid for a stake in any carrier, citing names such as Alitalia, Olympus, and others."

Olympus???

I'm sorry if my comments are out of line. I don't know a whole lot about Mr. Clark or whether this is how he usually comes across, but to me it just seems very oddly worded for what's supposed to be direct quotes.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 15601 times:

EK has 45 WhaleJets on order. That is around 24,000 seats. What exactly is their alternative if they decide to cancel? If they swap the order for 748i's, they are going to have to wait just as long, if not longer.

They really don't have much choice at this juncture except to hold on to the WhaleJet's star, even if that star is falling. As the old adage goes, they made their bed; now they're going to have to sleep in it.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 915 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 15494 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
EK has 45 WhaleJets on order. That is around 24,000 seats. What exactly is their alternative if they decide to cancel? If they swap the order for 748i's, they are going to have to wait just as long, if not longer.

 checkmark  and it won't give them the seats that they want if they are truly interested in loading up some of these 380s. This also jives with why EK wants a shorter 748i (and why I don't get the LH interest in the longer one). EK isn't interested in a plane closing in on the size of the 380. If anything they want something that can carry more people than the 773ER, but with great range.

cheers.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31395 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 15466 times:
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Quoting YVRtoYYZ (Reply 1):
What stood out was the comment regarding 2 years delay and that timeframe being relatively insignificant in the aviation industry.

While EK's traffic continues to grow significantly (something like 20% a year), and certainly the A388 will be a welcome addition to the fleet to help carry that, they do seem to be doing fine with their current fleet of Boeing and Airbus widebodies and are able to get additional Boeing widebodies (773ERs) quickly enough. So it seems reasonable to me that while the A388 delays are annoying, they are not having a dramatically negative effect on EK's current financials.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 2):
Assess? Sounds to me he's saying he wants to wait until Airbus actually delivers the aircraft before determining what the overall compensation is. That doesn't sound right.

It does to me, since until the plane has an EK configuration and is flying EK routes, they don't really know what it can or cannot do vis-a-vis the guarantees. If the result is good, it is in Airbus' interests to wait as the compensation will be lower. If the result is poor, it is in EK's interests to wait as the compensation will be higher.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 15373 times:

Quoting YVRtoYYZ (Reply 1):
I wonder if we shall hear more news from EK that could contradict this latest statement as it seems like new news emerges from EK on a weekly basis.

I agree. After an uncharacteristic four-month hiatus over the summer, Tim Clark's often contradictory verbal diarrhea has resumed with a vengeance. Sometime you have to sift through a lot of ore to mine a diamond.  Smile


User currently offlineAdria From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 15177 times:

Quoting YVRtoYYZ (Reply 1):
What stood out was the comment regarding 2 years delay and that timeframe being relatively insignificant in the aviation industry.

Nothing surprising there...EK is not buying 45 A380s for a couple of years...

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
EK has 45 WhaleJets on order. That is around 24,000 seats. What exactly is their alternative if they decide to cancel? If they swap the order for 748i's, they are going to have to wait just as long, if not longer.

To get an 40 years old design instead of a totally new one? This would be a bad deal...


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 15139 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
It does to me, since until the plane has an EK configuration and is flying EK routes, they don't really know what it can or cannot do vis-a-vis the guarantees. If the result is good, it is in Airbus' interests to wait as the compensation will be lower. If the result is poor, it is in EK's interests to wait as the compensation will be higher.

I was thinking in terms of what he prefaced the comment with: "Compensation is not our target." Your response does make good sense and provides a different perspective on the comments.

Last week, however, EK was commenting on how much the A380 was over weight and how EK was sending its own audit team to enter "talks" with Airbus to address the A380 two-year delay and weight issue. At that time Clark commented that the delays were costing the airline "hundreds of millions of dollars" in lost revenue.

Just is interesting how his tune seems to have changed in just a week.


User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15072 times:

Old Timmy is prone to a few rants isn't he? It seems after he's shot his mouth off and realised he's shot himself in the foot at the same time, he comes out with another comment to try and shore up his position once again.

This rather conciliatory tone tells you that he is aware that he'd previously played his hand to Boeing by trashing airbus. Now he needs to show Boeing that he is happpy with Airbus to keep them hungry. Every other shrewd business man would keep all cards close to their chest till the last minute.

Is it the sun that is cooking his head or something else?

One is dying to take what he says as gospel but it just isn't worth it. Bless him


User currently offlineAdria From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15052 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 8):
Just is interesting how his tune seems to have changed in just a week.

Or this is typical politics to force the competition for a better deal?


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 14949 times:

Quoting Adria (Reply 10):
Or this is typical politics to force the competition for a better deal?

To me it sounded like Singapore Air right after they and Airbus reached agreement for more A380's, some A350's, and interim A330's.


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3597 posts, RR: 66
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 14715 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 2):
Sounds to me he's saying he wants to wait until Airbus actually delivers the aircraft before determining what the overall compensation is. That doesn't sound right.

It does sound right. That's the way guarantees normally work. You evaluate the product you get vs was what was promised and then total up the compensation required. EK doesn't even have a firm A380 delivery date yet. How can they determine the compensation due?



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 14702 times:

Quoting Adria (Reply 7):
To get an 40 years old design instead of a totally new one? This would be a bad deal...

So why is the "40 year design" crushing the "new" design in the freighter department (egarding the pax department we'll see what happens)

Why is the "40 year design" 737 beating the newer A32X model this year and is basically even over the past 10 years?



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21582 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 14683 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 9):
Old Timmy is prone to a few rants isn't he?

In every industry, there are certain CEOs who like to be in the news everyday, out of hubris or just to keep their company in the headlines.

Clark is one of those guys. And because he made that giant order for A380s, he won himself the right to be listened to every time he speaks.

It doesn't mean he always has something worthwhile to say, however...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 14524 times:

Quoting Adria (Reply 7):
To get an 40 years old design instead of a totally new one?

I think, Adria, that it will become clear in later years that the choice is actually between a good design and a mediocre one.

Lots of designs last. There are still numbers of DC3 Dakotas (a 70-year-old design) still flying and still earning their keep. The 737 has been flying (and succeeding commercially) since 1967. The basic design of the Rolls-Royce Trent engine was finalised in 1970...........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1628 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13934 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 2):
Assess? Sounds to me he's saying he wants to wait until Airbus actually delivers the aircraft before determining what the overall compensation is. That doesn't sound right.

What he is saying is, IMO, If we could trust Airbus even remotely, we would be ok.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineTrent900 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11954 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
So why is the "40 year design" crushing the "new" design in the freighter department (egarding the pax department we'll see what happens)

Why is the "40 year design" 737 beating the newer A32X model this year and is basically even over the past 10 years?

I undertstand what your saying here but everyone has to remember Airbus is still a young company compared with Boeing. Even if your more on B's side you've got to admit A have done very well considering their age and the competition.

Is the 748 actually a new design though? And as Mr. Clark has been saying airlines do need the 380. Boeing would not be able to extend the 748 to carry as many punters, so they are different aircraft for different missions.

D.


User currently offlineAdria From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11351 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
So why is the "40 year design" crushing the "new" design in the freighter department (egarding the pax department we'll see what happens)

Why is the "40 year design" 737 beating the newer A32X model this year and is basically even over the past 10 years?

There are going to be more 747Fs than A380Fs but since there are many 744 pax I think we will see more conversions instead of new orders for the 747-8F. But in the pax market the A380 at this stage is clearly ahead...

Don't forget that the A320 has survived two generations of 737s so Boeing didn't manage to "crush" the A320 even with the "new" NG. Since the production rate for the A320 is higher than for the 737 and since it outsold the 737 in 2005 (we don't know what will happen this year) the 737 is slowly losing ground...


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10963 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
Why is the "40 year design" 737 beating the newer A32X model this year and is basically even over the past 10 years?

There is nothing to support this claim. Classic 737 were well beaten by A320, then Boeing came up with NG and only managed to achieve balance on that market.


User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10851 times:

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 17):
Is the 748 actually a new design though? And as Mr. Clark has been saying airlines do need the 380.

Premium airlines like EK and SQ need the 380. Massive space for king size premium products.

For more normal airlines like LH, the 748i has enough space for the same mission. All while burning less fuel.

It's all a big battle of 400-500 seaters. 747 on the economy end and A380 on the luxury end. So the A380 operators thirst for its luxury, not its larger-than-747 seat count. JMO.


User currently offlineJasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10745 times:

Not totally unsurprising, afterall airlines make money by (believe it or not) having aircraft in the air earning revenue, it is their core business. Emirates believe they can make money on certain routes from the A380 in the long term so they will stick with it, there is no interpretation required in Mr Clark's comments.

User currently offlinePEK18R36L From China, joined Dec 2005, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10374 times:

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 17):
I undertstand what your saying here but everyone has to remember Airbus is still a young company compared with Boeing.

You could say Airbus is a young company. You could also say - with equal accuracy - that Airbus in one form or another has been manufacturing aircraft almost continuously since before World War I.

In France, IIRC, Airbus' heiritage can be traced back to a dozen hallowed names in Aviation history, including Louis Bleriot and his eponymous firm, all the way through the mergers of 1936-1937 that gave us SFECMAS, SNCAN, Sud-Est and Sud-Oest, then the creation of Nord Aviation in 1954 from the first two and Sud Aviation from the latter, then Aerospatiale.

In Germany, despite the postwar restrictions, the heiritage reaches back to Bavarian Aircraft Works (BFW), which became Messerschmitt AG, and after a 2 decade hiatus became MBB and then Daimler Benz Aerospace. And let us not forget the Dutchman, Mr. Anthony Fokker, begun in 1912, who was instrumental not only with his company but in the growth of Junkers, two of the most important names in European airliner manufacturing from the early days of passenger travel. Fokker joined up with the Focke-Wulf team (in the airframe business since 1923). The civilian airframe operations of all of the above became Deutsche Airbus.

These two groups became Airbus, whom with the contracted assistance of Hawker Siddeley (later part of BAe) and CASA (building planes since 1930)designed, built, and brought to market the Airbus A300 in the space of 62 months.

And lest we suggest such a mash-up of companies hardly reflects the Boeing situation, it would do us well to remember that the Boeing we know is actually Boeing, Chance-Vought, Piasecki, Rockwell, Douglas, McDonnell, and North American.

All of this is to simply point out that in one form or another both companies have been making airplanes for over 80 years.

So pity Airbus for the meddling of European technocrats, but not for a lack of a distinguished heritage and longevity in the aviation business.

David



In China, everything is possible - but nothing is easy.
User currently offlineBirdbrainz From United States of America, joined May 2005, 480 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 9540 times:

Quoting Dank (Reply 4):
This also jives with...

A small correction: It's "jibe" not "jive," as in "This also jibes with..."

OK, I'll stop playing English teacher.  Smile

Also, I agree with what's said about the 748i not being compelling, as it won't be flying any sooner. There's no reason for EK to switch horses now.



A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9200 times:

Quoting PEK18R36L (Reply 22):
And lest we suggest such a mash-up of companies hardly reflects the Boeing situation, it would do us well to remember that the Boeing we know is actually Boeing, Chance-Vought, Piasecki, Rockwell, Douglas, McDonnell, and North American.

Actually, most of Chance Vought wound up being split between Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, and the modern-day Vought Aircraft. Much of the civil North American/Rockwell operations wound up with Spirit Aerospace (along with the civil Stearman operations).

[Edited 2006-11-08 16:20:46]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
25 Revelation : Well, at least the 40 year old design has the bugs worked out of it.
26 Post contains images Adria : Well being almost 4 decades on the market this is the least you could expect from it
27 Post contains images NW727251ADV : While I like Airbus and you do have to admit they have done well, its only so much credit I can give them. They really haven't done anything "revolut
28 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Not only that, Airbus has been in the "game" long enough where like-versus-like comparisons can be made.. I already stated that the 748I is behind, b
29 Post contains images Adria : hehe, considering the A320 family outsold the 737 last year it doesn't mean anything if the 737 had it's best year ever. It's like racing in a race c
30 Post contains images Dank : wee bit sleepy when i replied. cheers.
31 Stitch : It means something to Boeing's bottom line. It also means something to Boeing's future products since it's more revenue to apply to developing and la
32 Post contains images Zvezda : ... and with lower CASM. Just look at the comparative sales for the last 12 months. Or the last 5 years. Or the last 10 years. There is no basis for
33 Pygmalion : Okay, come on. The 747-8 is not 40 years old, neither is the 747-400, nor is the 737NG series. All of the airplanes have gone through a redesign in th
34 Danny : Don't turn it upside down. The assertion was that 737 is beating 320 hands down (reply 13). I said that it is a balanced market. Rude but wrong. Obvo
35 Post contains images Jacobin777 : no there wasn't any "assertions"..why don't you stop lying?
36 Khobar : Actually the assertion was that the "40 year design" 737 is beating the newer A32X model this year and is basically even over the past 10 years, as p
37 Flysherwood : Okay, let's see. They are going to be losing $6 billion over the next couple of years because of the delays to A380 program. They need to come up wit
38 Flysherwood : Clearly ahead in what? Losing money for their respective company? When you get to break even point (420 aircraft as of now... more if more delays) th
39 ChiGB1973 : Remind you of certain things like: assigned seats, IFE, smaller and bigger aircraft, international routes? A big mouth can get you a lot of places. P
40 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I was only comparing pax sales....
41 Post contains images Beech19 : Um... but Boeing has been producing aircraft as Boeing since May 9, 1917 (it was "Pacific Aero Products Co" before that) Airbus has been Airbus for h
42 Nirvarma : Did you even read reply 13? Because if you did you would notice it says...
43 777MechSys : Incorrect. There is tooling still being used on the 747 line that has been around since the very first 747.
44 Justloveplanes : I think one can think of the 747 the same way one thinks of rear engine Porsche Carrerras, which are upgraded/renamed 911's. That is a classic and ti
45 NYC777 : I for one believes he's going to go through with the airplane. He said after the second delay that any further delays wold be unacceptable. Well we've
46 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Thanks for the support..I'm glad most understood what I was saying....and not try to spin things....
47 Adria : Did I say that you said something about the 737 crushing the A320?? I suggest you read my posts... But back to topic...Boeing had a chance to make a
48 PlaneHunter : I wouldn't call it "number 1" with having about 50% of the market, just like its rival... PH
49 Khobar : Based on...what exactly?
50 Post contains images Jacobin777 : You absolutely did Adria.... ...Both series of planes are great planes and are doing very well for the carriers using them.....if CO chose the A32X s
51 Dank : Of course. The key being that they would gladly pay for more range (or total uplift; I don't actually know what EK's cargo business is like) with sli
52 Post contains images PEK18R36L : Airbus has been Airbus since September 26, 1967. But we digress... Your point is well taken, Beech, but not germane to my argument: it is not the nam
53 Flysherwood : I have said this before and will say so again. Many pilots say that Boeing airplanes are built by engineers and Airbus airplanes are built by salesme
54 Adria : Where did I say that YOU said something about crushing the A320 (I cannot believe I'm having this conversation)...learn to read first!
55 Threepoint : Anecdotal and/or nationalist nonsense. "Many pilots" say many things. Both companies employ outstanding employees who design outstanding airplanes in
56 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ... ....
57 Flysherwood : A two year delay to EIS caused by two factories using different software on an item that is meant for passenger entertainment would suggest that the
58 N328KF : Again, the wiring was general wiring, not that specific to IFE.
59 Post contains images Beech19 : Thats gotta burn...
60 TristarSteve : Well I must admit I usually work on the A320 (and B757 B767 B777), but I haven't been near a B737 for 5 years. I used to work on B732/3/4/5. Yesterda
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