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FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II  
User currently offlineGarri767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12664 times:

Old version was getting wayy too long and taking forever to load. please continue here.



and like someone said in the older thread, i bet FX ends up taking old/used A380s and converting them into A380F's.



Garri767

[Edited 2006-11-08 04:03:51]

91 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12671 times:

It may have been said in the other discussion but who wants to read through 200+ posts? But it was a bold move by FX considering the changes they made in MEM including the huge hangar for the A380. But they really had no choice in making the move. Who knows if Airbus ever delivers the first A380. FX can't wait forever.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineGarri767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12649 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 1):
FX can't wait forever

With a few major cargo companies in the slew for a380 (formerly FX) i wonder how much longer any other airlines can wait!




Garri767


User currently onlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12633 times:

I think this will force UPS to dump Airbus as well. If they don't it could give FX a huge advantage. Unless they are going with the 747 freighter versus the Airbus as it is.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12558 times:

FedEx delivers Boeing a major win
Cargo company cancels order with Airbus

By JAMES WALLACE
P-I AEROSPACE REPORTER

...Ned Laird, managing director of the Air Cargo Management Group, an aviation consulting and research firm in Seattle, said the FedEx decision represents a "major breakthrough" for Boeing. This is the first time since 1983 that FedEx has ordered new production freighters from Boeing, he said. FedEx is the world's largest operator of Airbus freighters, he noted...

...Richard Aboulafia, vice president of analysis for the Teal Group, an industry consulting firm in Fairfax, Va., said the FedEx cancellation is not as catastrophic for the A380 program as a cancellation from Emirates would be.

But it does raise questions about the viability of the A380 freighter program, he said...


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/291479_fedexairbus08.html


User currently onlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12537 times:

It is a bit of a shame because I was hoping to catch a FX 380 coming to IND. But guess that won't happen. Maybe I'll see a 777 which is impressive itself here.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12462 times:

Quoted from First thread:

Member: N31029 said:

Hi Everyone.

As an ardent aviation enthusiast first and foremost, I am saddened at this cancellation news. Whether we hold allegiance to Boeing or Airbus, a beautiful new aircraft type - gracing the skies - is something to be excited about. A terminated order is not.

We are all here to celebrate our shared passion for the commercial aviation industry. And whether our preference is for Manufacturer A or Manufacturer B, the potential demise of an inherently well-designed and innovative aircraft type can never be seen as a positive.

Obviously, the real world has interceded - finally - into the A380 program. And that is unfortunate because as a young company Airbus has many successes to its credit. And, further frustrating is the fact that the type itself appears to have been successfully engineered and destined to fill a unique void in the commercial aircraft marketplace.

The A380F - while not indicative of the future success or failure of the A380 passenger model - does generate cause for concern as FedEx's business model demanded capacity at a finite point in time. Airlines, at some point, must be true to their business models.

Several airlines, ordering the passenger version, have demonstrated great patience and vision, knowing that the ultimate success and need for the A380 will not be manifested in the short-term, but, in the long run. They will hold out, and secure this long range planning, until it is no longer feasible.

While it is entirely possible that the A380 may carve its place in history as a limited-run aircraft, it is also possible that the changing nature of the industry - and the world - may provide some unexpected opportunities and thus propel the A380 to a more robust long-term sales stature. Airbus' forecasts may yet be proved correct. The future can often hold unplanned surprises.

Airbus will continue to move forward with its marquee program and do the best it can to learn from its mistakes, and, build a better business plan for the future.

We must not forget an oft-repeated lesson of history: it is darkest just before dawn. I do not know how bright the light will shine for the A380 program over time, however, I do not know that it is much, much too early to know with any certainty what the long-term outcome will be.

Yes, today's news is indeed a setback but strength, perseverance, and a higher level of excellence can come out of adversity.

Blessings, N31029

**************************************

SSTsomeday here:

I just thought this post was worthy of being transfered to the new thread. Amazing how taking the high road brings with it a sense of truth and balance, doesn't it?



I come in peace
User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 907 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12336 times:

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 6):
SSTsomeday here:

I just thought this post was worthy of being transfered to the new thread. Amazing how taking the high road brings with it a sense of truth and balance, doesn't it?

Thanks for the repost.

cheers.


User currently offlineElvis777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 12131 times:

Howdy all,

Well, before we are all asked to join in one big group hug let me be the first and perhaps only one to post an opposing point of view to N31029 post:

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 6):
Hi Everyone.

As an ardent aviation enthusiast first and foremost, I am saddened at this cancellation news. Whether we hold allegiance to Boeing or Airbus, a beautiful new aircraft type - gracing the skies - is something to be excited about. A terminated order is not.

I am often amazed that we must categorize one's level of enthusiasm for aviation. as if to say that if one is a true blue aviation enthusiast (AE) then one must accept the N3s first premise. In other words, what he is innocently promulgating can actually be construed as a loyalty letter. "If you don’t sign it then you must be disloyal" which is to say that if I don’t feel that the 380 is then I must not be a true AE! Just like there are all shades of liberal democrats or conservative republicans (I am watching cnn) then there must be many shades of AE! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and although I must admit that in certain poses the 380 looked pretty nice, other people (at times myself) found the thing ugly.

And as an ardent AE I can be exited about anything under the skies that involves aviation -including but not limited to an order cancellation.

I think that there are AE, even ardent ones, that see this not just as an aesthetics contest but as an industrial competition that defines the , in some ways, political power throughout the world.

I guess I don’t like to be chided, even gently, for discussing the cancellation of a 10+ plane order. And I don’t much like anyone telling me what to be exited about or What not to be exited about.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 6):
We are all here to celebrate our shared passion for the commercial aviation industry. And whether our preference is for Manufacturer A or Manufacturer B, the potential demise of an inherently well-designed and innovative aircraft type can never be seen as a positive

I really don’t know why some of us are here. I can only speak for myself, I like aviation stuff. ever since I was a kid. Some people call that a passion, I don’t know. I sure do enjoy reading peoples comments on a variety of subjects dealing with aviation, kind of like a window on the community. I often hear things before the media has reported it. Often these rumors are false but they are still interesting. In any case, this is an aviation forum and so anything is fair game. EVEN talking about the cancellation of an order. If one is to frankly and openly discuss an issue , there should not be any limits to the joy or sadness that one feels about a topic. Kind of like saying that if one is a true blue American one should not feel joy that x (where x can be republican or democrat) lost a particular seat!

Also, why are we to agree that this aircraft is well designed? As a courtesy I am going to say it is, but doesn’t the design of an aircraft encompass integration of electrical systems? So why don’t we wait till the thing is flying and at least meeting its stated engineering goals (verified by non LH pilot sources) before we call this bird well designed.

As far as innovative, well lots of opinions on this....I personally don’t see this as an innovative bird but hey I am sure Keesje , EBBUK et all will disagree. Nothing inherently wrong with that. As a matter of fact I think highly of these two members- that is the way life should be, different drummers and all.

As far as the demise of the 380 a good or bad thing let me put forth this scenario:

Suppose that the 380 was a mistake (just suppose) and that it is really hurting eads right now and in the future as well. what if the 380 were to die tomorrow but in return eads were to become a much stronger plane company. So much so that the 350 v7 would rule the world and they would make tons of money and by this make new birds that would be truly innovative and well engineered and that would grace our skies with the eagle like looks (keesje!). Would not that be a great thing? and all because the 380 became history. Is this not what happened with the concorde? eads precursor moved on after they realized the C was not a viable business platform and look at what they did (300,320,330, 340).

Just a simple scenario...

Ok., cant type more and the election results are coming in but you guys can see where I was heading with the rest of N3s post.

Peace Brothers

Elvis777

Any grammatical, editorial errors as well as inherent flaws to my arguments may be intentional or unintentional. Reference: Baroque, A.net post, 3rd quarter 2006.



Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 12035 times:

The spectre of a programme cancellation for the A380F is now real, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread. I am wondering if Airbus and UPS are playing at brinkmanship on the other ten orders? UPS has, as you recall, converted previous orders to the A380 and most likely faces losses for cancelling now. Airbus would have penalties or refunds if they cancel, so there is ample reason to delay any decision at this point for both parties. I am not sure where Airbus is in their spending on the F model, but obviously the FedEx cancellation changes the already weak* case for the F dramatically.

(*"already weak" in the sense that they had only won 25 orders, and this is now amplified by the loss of what should have been their sure thing)

Airbus may be closer to the tipping point for the whole programme than any of us realise. This cancellation could spell the end of the freighter, which in turn invalidates the already optimistic business case for the aeroplane. A very sad state of affairs for everybody, not just in Europe.

The recent QF option conversions will not offset this cancellation, by the way. The additional eight frames contribute little to the A380 programme costs, according to the Sydney rumour mill. (In house crowing has the A380 purchase price as "below cost", whatever the hell that means)



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 12010 times:

I think Airbus maybe closer to the cancellation of the A380 program than you think. I think they realize that Airbus should cut its losses and concentrate on the A350XWB, which will be better-suited for more airlines than the A380.

User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 907 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11968 times:

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 9):
This cancellation could spell the end of the freighter, which in turn invalidates the already optimistic business case for the aeroplane. A very sad state of affairs for everybody, not just in Europe.

I honestly don't see how the business case of the pax 380 has anything to do with freighter sales. It isn't like airlines bought both, most of the freighters were from freight only carriers and the rest were from a leasing firm. That said, I do think that we could see the death of the freighter which I don't think is the worst thing to happen to program at this point.

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 9):
The recent QF option conversions will not offset this cancellation, by the way. The additional eight frames contribute little to the A380 programme costs, according to the Sydney rumour mill.

This is likely due to the fact that Airbus is simply going to apply payments that would be due to QF because of the delays to the 380 program to the cost of the new planes. This is a win-win scenario for both parties, so long as QF actually want the plane (and it seems that QF does, otherwise they would have just asked for the cash or some other deal). Essentially, Airbus doesn't have to pay out directly to QF in cash and secures additional orders for the program and QF gets a plane they can use at a better deal. Clearly this isn't the best deal for Airubs, as they would prefer not to have to pay anything, but that isn't a choice they have. There is no way that I believe that Airbus is giving QF the new 380s/330s at a price below the cost of the 380 minus the concession payments (i.e., if you added the payments to the cost of the deal for QF, you will get some value above the manufacturing cost of the 380).

cheers.


User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11946 times:

Sorry if this is a stupid question but, why should UPS cancel their order of A380Fs just because of FedEx's cancellation like many of you members are suggesting? UPS is a worldwide leader in synchronized commerce and is very proactive, not reactive. I don't see anything that would push or influence UPS to make such a move.

Regards,

E-M-B



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13138 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11934 times:
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From the old thread on range of freighters:

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 285):

So I have got this wrong?

No, but Fedex needs trans-Pacific hauling to Asia. I am guestimating that they want a non-stop OAK-SHA (skipping ANC). MEM-SHA at 6457nm is just too far as is IND-SHA. Of course, I'm going from memory that FedEx is opening a hub at SHA in 2008... There has to be some value to getting a certain fraction of the freight moving faster and bypassing ANC to the OAK distribution center. Thus why the 748F's range isn't enough. As I noted, Cest la vie. FedEx has their priorities and should purchase the best fleet to make the most money per their business plan.  Smile

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11924 times:

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 12):
why should UPS cancel their order of A380Fs

UPS has already been making noises about cancelling.. it's not that they would cancel because Fedex cancelled, but rather that they wouldn't cancel if Fedex didn't (public perception, etc.)



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently onlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11855 times:

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 12):
Sorry if this is a stupid question but, why should UPS cancel their order of A380Fs just because of FedEx's cancellation like many of you members are suggesting? UPS is a worldwide leader in synchronized commerce and is very proactive, not reactive. I don't see anything that would push or influence UPS to make such a move.

Look at how fast FX can get the 777's delivered. When is UPS going to get their A380's? Can they wait what could be many years to get deliveries? What if Airbus scraps the program completely because they simply cannot get it done? The UPS has to place orders for other jets and be all the way at the end of the line and will have to wait many more years for deliveries. This could put them far behind FX.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11822 times:

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 8):
Also, why are we to agree that this aircraft is well designed? As a courtesy I am going to say it is, but doesn’t the design of an aircraft encompass integration of electrical systems?

Sure it does. But it's like an American football team that is of championship caliber in every way except for one cornerback who keeps giving up touchdowns. Everyone else is doing a fine, fine job, but their efforts are sabotaged by that one weak spot. People here are just trying to give recognition to the majority of the players who are competent, even if the team loses.


User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11777 times:

Quoting Dank (Reply 11):
This is likely due to the fact that Airbus is simply going to apply payments that would be due to QF because of the delays to the 380 program to the cost of the new planes. This is a win-win scenario for both parties, so long as QF actually want the plane (and it seems that QF does, otherwise they would have just asked for the cash or some other deal). Essentially, Airbus doesn't have to pay out directly to QF in cash and secures additional orders for the program and QF gets a plane they can use at a better deal. Clearly this isn't the best deal for Airbus, as they would prefer not to have to pay anything, but that isn't a choice they have. There is no way that I believe that Airbus is giving QF the new 380s/330s at a price below the cost of the 380 minus the concession payments (i.e., if you added the payments to the cost of the deal for QF, you will get some value above the manufacturing cost of the 380).

The first $A104 million liquidated damages has already been booked by QF as related in mandatory market advice. (This was pre Delay3). Additional damages for the third delay were estimated at $A30-40 million, but have not been disclosed probably due to, as you surmised, being folded into the option conversion price. Whatever the final number is, it has been (strongly) rumoured to be slightly less than the net price paid for the original frames including penalties. This suggests a price somewhere near $145-155 u.s. mark.

I think that QF is quite happy to extract maximum benefit from any supplier, Airbus included. They are not really disadvantaged in the near term, because nobody has A380's. When the aeroplane is available, especially at fire sale prices, then they'll have to have them. It should be telling, however, that right now, when there is blood in the water and the best deals are to be had, that QF is converting only EIGHT options. QF is one of the A380's few natural customers, and they have measured the market and decided on twenty*. This does not bode well for the sale of 263 more frames in a timely fashion.

Speaking of 'timely fashion', aren't some of QF's conversions for 2015 delivery? If so, they do nothing for the 2011-2015 period which Airbus needs to be robust.

*compared to a stated need for 'up to 115' B787 frames.

Happy trails...



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13138 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11769 times:
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Quoting Indy (Reply 15):
This could put them far behind FX.

One nitpick: UPS has a much higher bond rating than FX. Thus, if they decided to buy more aircraft, it would be far easier for them to borrow money than FedEx who only has a BBB bond rating (a mere 2 notches above junk). UPS sits on a AAA bond rating. Big differnce in the ease of borrowing cash....


Thus UPS could supliment the A380's with 747F's or 777F's. FedEx really had a choice of one or the other as it isn't very viable to have a fleet of only 5 A380's for them (not enough commonality).

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2214 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11710 times:

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 9):
The spectre of a programme cancellation for the A380F is now real, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread. I am wondering if Airbus and UPS are playing at brinkmanship on the other ten orders? UPS has, as you recall, converted previous orders to the A380 and most likely faces losses for cancelling now.

Or, UPS could quite coincidentally become a launch customer for the A330F? While UPS has a strong incentive to cancel, Airbus has a growing incentive to put the A380F on ice for a while. Sounds like a win-win if the A330F (sporting Trent 1000 / GEnx derivatives, of course!) has a place in UPS's network.


User currently offlineFXfan From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11674 times:

Is this due primarily to success on FDX's part, or on the failures of Airbus?

User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11665 times:

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 19):
Or, UPS could quite coincidentally become a launch customer for the A330F? While UPS has a strong incentive to cancel, Airbus has a growing incentive to put the A380F on ice for a while.

Now there is a good idea. Remember that the UPS order was in exchange for 37 cancelled A36s. They might do the same with an airplane that may better suit their needs.


User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11639 times:
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Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
It is a bit of a shame because I was hoping to catch a FX 380 coming to IND. But guess that won't happen. Maybe I'll see a 777 which is impressive itself here.

Your getting at least 1x daily 777F, IND-CAN.

Might get more once we accept the 15 other options!

 airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane  airplane 


User currently onlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11640 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
One nitpick: UPS has a much higher bond rating than FX. Thus, if they decided to buy more aircraft, it would be far easier for them to borrow money than FedEx who only has a BBB bond rating (a mere 2 notches above junk). UPS sits on a AAA bond rating. Big differnce in the ease of borrowing cash....

Getting cash will be a non factor in my opinion. The problem will be UPS' place in queue when it comes to getting jet deliveries. If they don't move soon how long will they have to wait for deliveries of Boeing products?



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineElvis777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11616 times:

Hi Aeropagus,

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 16):
Sure it does. But it's like an American football team that is of championship caliber in every way except for one cornerback who keeps giving up touchdowns. Everyone else is doing a fine, fine job, but their efforts are sabotaged by that one weak spot. People here are just trying to give recognition to the majority of the players who are competent, even if the team loses.

To use your analogy (example?): A team wins and loses together. No one is singled out. I think that is a mantra of our beloved NFL (save T. Owens and a couple of others). So, although I am sure that they (eads) have engineering talent, this does not translate to a well engineered bird. If we want to give credit to the wing designers (for example) they can be recognized without mentioning the whole aircraft, if that is what they want. Although, if the team loses, I don’t think they would seek the recognition.

Would the Apollo program be called a well engineered program if it had failed? What about the Concorde? On the latter, I think we can agree that it was an adventurous and innovative (although the SST and Tu 144 were right there as well)design. And after several years we can now say that it indeed was well engineered (the wing tank aside, right?) bird. It earned that distinction. The 380 whalejet may one day earn that distinction. But right now I think it is premature to say that it is well engineered when there is a paucity of performance data (aside from those LH pilots).
So, although it has a lower landing speed than predicted this alone does not make it a 'well' engineered bird. Questions still remain(Wake issues, wing issues, weight issues, integration issues, manufacturingn issues,....).

So yes, as a courtesy I will say that it looks like it is well engineered. But lets wait for it to earn its wings if you would before we lay prostrate before this grandeur of engineering.

Peace

Elvis777



Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
25 Curmudgeon : Because the business case for the entire program depended on selling some freighters. It doesn't matter who ordered, it matters that they get deliver
26 Post contains images Ikramerica : That Hanger will be just as useful for 748Fs and 777Fs and other planes. They were the last customer for the 727, though they didn't ORDER the 727 in
27 Woosie : Acutally, I just did. I've seen all 195 MD-11's being built, as well as each DC-10 to MD-10 conversion. I'm a bit biased... I tried to comment on a n
28 Post contains images Curmudgeon : I can't recall the thread right now, but I remember a post a few weeks ago that claimed that UPS wasn't able to get great cancellation terms in their
29 Joni : A regrettable setback for the A380F program, but not unexpected as even Airbus said that some airlines may cancel due to the delivery delays. Airbus l
30 Dougbr2006 : No penalty clause for cancellation !!!! We all know that th A380 programme is off course but surely Airbus got deposits on these frames, it would unus
31 Halls120 : In addition, as another poster noted earlier, the price of specialized cargo handling equipment for the A380F will go up if there are fewer units bui
32 AA1818 : Of course there were penalities in teh contract. However airlines, at this point in time can probably cancel without penalty, which is probably also
33 Post contains links Curmudgeon : Check out this news story about the EADS Q3 results. In it, the Airbus CFO is quoted as saying all the freighter orders were "in the cancellation zone
34 Revelation : An airplane launched with a flawed business case right from the start is not something to celebrate. In the long term, all it does is damage the indu
35 Post contains links Leelaw : FOCUS: Future Of Airbus' A380 Freighter Looks In Doubt LONDON (Dow Jones)--Airbus could be forced into an embarrassing cancellation or mothballing of
36 Adria : It looks like FX has a strategy change. They obviously don't need a VLA freighter otherwise the 747F would be their choice. The 777 is much smaller t
37 Revelation : I'm sorry if one of my posts gave you that impression. What I was trying to say is that we now know have a very strong clue as to how FX will be repl
38 Katekebo : The reason for FedEx selection is timing - they will start receiving first B777Fs in late 2008. The B748F is sold-out for the next 4 years. FedEx nee
39 N328KF : This is an important point that didn't escape my notice, either. I was just about to post it in. This means that UPS can now do what they wanted to d
40 Flaps : At last!!!! I have been waiting for my former employer to finally come to their senses. The A380 is too large for all but a tiny fraction of FedEx mar
41 Post contains images Dank : Timing, timing, timing. It looks to me more like Fed Ex has a change in public strategy because the plane available to them at the right time is diff
42 Adria : So a 4 year waiting list is one reason more to order the 748F if they needed a VLA freighter. They also could buy some used 747s and convert them to
43 Dank : Hunh? They can get the 777 earlier and it has better range than the 748. THe 777F is available in the exact time frame that they expected their 380Fs
44 Ikramerica : Also, the 777F is a long distance package freighter option while the 748F is a medium range heavy lift aircraft. The problem I saw with the A380F was
45 Adria : So why don't convert some 744s, or get MD-11s or something like that. The 777F is a long term investment for FX and since no additional 748Fs have be
46 Jacobin777 : They have bond rating problems, but cancelling the entire order might mean they might have to start from scratch in terms of negotiations...... Given
47 SSTsomeday : Absolutely. I see nothing I can argue with in terms of the manner of your post as you respectfully and intelligently express your point of view. What
48 Post contains links N328KF : Here are two interesting and contrasting articles, both from within the last five days. Brief fair use excerpts from The Chicago Tribune and Bloomberg
49 Dallasnewark : If one would take a closer look at the history of these 2 companies, FEDEX is the innovator and UPS is the follower. In the shipping business, there
50 53Sqdn : The A380 may appear to be dying at this moment in time. Some say hurrah! A true supporter of aviation would see this as a (longer than expected) glich
51 Post contains links and images MrComet : While I have been a vocal critic of the economics of the A380 as a passenger plane, it makes sense as a package carrier - long range, large physical
52 FCKC : I do not see this T7F order as a replacement for the A380 order.Sooner or later they will need a larger plane such as the A380F or 747-8F. Hope when t
53 N328KF : If Boeing goes nuts on the concept of a BWB for military and freighter usage, this could be ideal for FX. Mind you, we're talking at least a decade a
54 SSTsomeday : The way I see it is: The 777 offers more range than the 380, does it not?. FedEx says they want to fly more point-to-point to satisfy customers with
55 Post contains images Stitch : I see it as an interim replacement order. I don't expect it to be a permanent one, however. If they could pressurize and heat it, the 747LCF would pr
56 Slider : I've read this about a dozen or more times in just this continuation of the original thread and totally disagree. Europride is on the line. There's n
57 Browntailwhale : You heard it HERE first! Look for UPS to cancel their A-380F order and instead become the launch customer for the A-330F. Fact is that Airbus has rece
58 Osiris30 : Even Airbus has said it's possible.. why do you doubt it?
59 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Of note...here are some Airbus figures,etc....below are Boeings numbers.. "The A380F’s freighter variant grew out of consideration of future stretc
60 Ikramerica : Zvezda changed his name and moved to Canada! Seriously, this has been Boeing's argument for years now, and it was not just the rationale for the 787,
61 SSTsomeday : I agree Europe will not allow Airbus or the 380 program to fail, but I don't think it's about pride. I suggest that Europe simply cannot alow their p
62 Post contains images Glideslope : It's also of great interest to Russia.
63 Lumberton : I thought that Aercap was in line to be the first? Does anyone have any data on characteristics of an A330-200F? I have read that it can carry 64-65
64 Post contains images Curmudgeon : Read it again, I was talking about the freighter only. Even the Airbus CFO has cast doubt on the remaining freighter orders. I doubt that even Airbus
65 F4N : Begs the question then, why did they order it?
66 Browntailwhale : Two reasons. 1. FedEx ordered it 2. To get out of the A-300 order without paying a penalty
67 Browntailwhale : CHICAGO, Nov 8 (Reuters) - Package delivery company United Parcel Service Inc. (UPS.N: Quote, Profile, Research) is in no rush to cancel its order of
68 F4N : Browntailwhale: I suppose that I already guessed that, but I was curious to see if there was anything else. I have to wonder though, if A330F's are w
69 Katekebo : Read: We'll let Airbus do the next move and "milk the cow" - if the A380 gets delayed even further. we press for more compensation, if it gets cancel
70 Osiris30 : Pretty much.. not statements like 'firmly committed to' or 'eager to get our hands on', just: we're not pressed for time. You summed it up pretty wel
71 Post contains images Dank : Umm, because they can get new 777Fs soon. They can't get new 744s or MD-11s. And conversions aren't going to give them the same capacity/range that t
72 Pygmalion : The 777F is a good long term investment. The 777 family has always had a high resale value, the 777F is no different. If, not when, FX decides to cha
73 Adria : Well you cannot speculate on the A380s resale value and especially why BA didn't (yet!) choose the A380. I don't know where you got the impression th
74 Zvezda : Payload and range are secondary. The main question is tonne-mile costs.
75 N31029 : Hi Elvis777. A pleasure to make your acquaintance, as I have been reading your posts with interest for a long time prior to becoming a formal member
76 Post contains links WingedMigrator : (about the A330F idea) Hey, great minds think alike, right? Or maybe it's just patently obvious low-hanging fruit for Airbus. An A330F based on the cu
77 Post contains images Ikramerica : Just combine it. Great minds can recognize the obvious answer while others are busy denying the question even exists.
78 SSTsomeday : Well thanks. I will strive to make the content of my posts of as much value to the discussion as the manner in which I post them.
79 OldAeroGuy : But coordination and integration is also part of engineering. To say the design of a system that cannot be build is an excellent design misses the es
80 Post contains images Astuteman : And HOW! My day job is stopping designers designing "excellent" systems that cannot be built - and I'm a BUSY guy Regards
81 Lumberton : But wouldn't that bring it closer in capacity to the 777F, or is that the idea? Wouldn't an "almost straight" replacement (capacity wise) for the A30
82 Post contains images F4N : Astuteman: Absolutely superb response. I wish you could bottle that attitude and send it over here so I could give it to my boss. It would make my li
83 Revelation : Also, in this context, one has to be able to buld as many exact copies of the original as one wants. When I see the photo of the four A380s flying in
84 NoWorries : I'm wondering if the 5.5 tonne overweight problem cited by EK also affects the freighter? If so, that could really harm the UPS case for 380F as well
85 Zvezda : There is no reason to believe the weight problem wouldn't affect the freighter. Relatively few parts (by weight) are specific to the passenger versio
86 Lightsaber : Astuteman let me add my voice to that choir. With modern solid modeling software there are fewer excuses than before for bad designs. But many excell
87 Post contains links Leelaw : ...During the A380 rollout last year, FedEx executives told The DAILY that the A380's two floors perfectly fit the international cargo configuration
88 Elvis777 : Howdy N31029, No aplogogies were necessary. Different points of view. You are a gentleman. Thanks and Peace Elvis777
89 Ikramerica : Sounds like building a house. The architect has all these great ideas, with beautiful angles and proportions and "openness" and all that fun, artsy/e
90 Post contains images Astuteman : "sense of humour essential"...... We've actually got some great engineers, but I fell out with our senior hydraulics guy when he said he'd satisfied
91 Post contains links ChiGB1973 : I do not think I have ever seen a 777 that I thought was ugly, but FedEx colors look aweful in this picture. Don't know what it is? http://www.boeing.
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