Bicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7308 times:
San Diego county voters showed great wisdom and insight by rejecting yesterday Miramar as the site for a new airport. The vote wasn't even close. If people and businesses want a new airport, no one is forcing them to stay in San Diego. Move! It's too crowded here in San Diego anyway.
San747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4934 posts, RR: 13 Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7176 times:
Wow... I can't believe the vote all of us San Diegans were waiting for since the 2002 (or so) has actually happened... and of course, the ignorant masses vote it down. I hope my grandfather voted pro-Miramar at least, I explained the advantages of it to him several times.
I couldn't vote because I'm not a resident of San Diego county, BTW. But at any rate, I don't know what's going to happen to my SAN now. This whole process is beginning to sadden me. All this political bullshit is preventing a real solution to be made for Lindbergh...
And no, we can't expand Lindbergh beyond a few more gates, and no, we can't send San Diegans to LA anymore once their 75 million pax cap goes into effect... Eventually, people have to realize that they must do something and look beyond their bullshit excuses...
Gunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3460 posts, RR: 11 Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7155 times:
Quoting Bicoastal (Thread starter): San Diego county voters showed great wisdom and insight by rejecting yesterday Miramar as the site for a new airport. The vote wasn't even close. If people and businesses want a new airport, no one is forcing them to stay in San Diego. Move! It's too crowded here in San Diego anyway.
It's called democracy, deal with it. If the vote wasn't even close, I think it's pretty safe to say that Miramar isn't the answer San Diego voters are looking for.
Tom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 40 Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7122 times:
Congratulations, San Diego voter, you just mortgaged your air transportation future with your politicians at the leinholder. The only worthwhile and immediately workable solution to SAN's issues was a move to Miramar. Land and access are both issues that were easily addressed there.
Btw, if and when your new airport gets built, and assuming the Camp Pendleton alternative will go away, when we come visit my brother and his family in northern San Diego County (San Marcos), we'll use ONT.
Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
Prop. A - a regional airport or regional gridlock. 10/24/06
by Pat Flannery
Look at this picture. What do you see? San Diego's new Regional Airport?
Wrong - it will never happen. Because the Marines will never leave? Wrong again.
Take a look at two huge new residential projects already in play, colored blue opposite. Read what the San Diego City Planning Department has to say about:
Rancho Encantada and East Elliott.
Do you think maybe somebody is not telling us the whole truth here? The developers, City Planning and Development Services have a government/client relationship that is more privileged than attorney/client privilege.
Do you thing that maybe "somebody" has already colored in that area between the two blues? Encantada and Elliott? Personally I believe they have colored in the entire MCAS Miramar area and that that is what their opposition to Prop. A is really all about.
McMillin already owns Rancho Encantada. Read their Winter 2006 Newsletter. It tells a little about what is going on out there. Also the Catholic Bishop of San Diego must know something the rest of us do not. He is building a Catholic School out there.
The one thing we all know for certain is that as sure as the Navy left Miramar, the Marines will leave too. Located right in the heart of a busy metropolitan area it is totally unsuited to their mission. The next training accident will take care of that.
Pardee owns East Elliott. Do you think these two huge developers, McMillin and Pardee are not salivating over all that sweet MCAS land? They want the Marines to leave more than anybody. The last thing they want is a stupid regional airport eating up their precious developable land. That is why Jerry Sanders is not backing Prop. A. McMillin and Pardee made their preference clear to him - with their check books.
So, the North City voters do have a choice: a civilian airport or wall-to-wall housing and bumper-to-bumper traffic. The greater Miramar area could accommodate up to 250,000 people. It will be the last great urbanizing project for San Diego City.
On the other hand what would happen if Prop A. passes? It would be a giant pain in the rear for Sanders' and his developer friends. It would create this conditional land use restriction hanging over the whole North City area. The City Fathers would be constrained by a stupid promise to build a regional airport where thousands of McMillin and Pardee houses properly belong. Look what happened at Brown Field. Pardee took care of Ralph Inzunza and Ralph (with a little last minute help from Dick Murphy) took care of Pardee. Result: FedEx still flies out of Lindberg.
As far as McMillin, Pardee and Sanders are concerned, we already have a perfectly fine one-runway airport located in a convenient soup bowl between Mission Hills and Point Loma. The Lindberg acreage is tiny compared to Miramar. You couldn't even fit a decent shopping center on there let alone a few thousand houses. Lindberg is on tidelands. Between the Port Authority and the Coastal Commission any decent developer would move to Las Vegas rather than go through all that hassle.
So there you have it. That's my take on the airport issue. Vote for Prop A, it may give us some small bargaining chip against the developers and the 500,000 people they will cram in there. Maybe more. Have you seen the way they build these days? How many "city of villages" do you think they could cram into Miramar's 23,000 acres?
In the unlikely chance that Prop A would actually give us a civilian airport at Miramar, when (not if) the Marines leave, a civilian airport would be a lot less noisy than the present MCAS. But it would be a hell of a lot better than what McMillan and Pardee (aided and abetted by our developer-financed Development Services Department) would give us - 500,000 people and total gridlock. That's the real issue, not an airport.
As I said at the top of this blog: the airport will never happen. The developers will never allow an airport to interfere with their carpet development of North City. If you've got any better ideas for fighting density in North City I'd love to hear them.
Boeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6996 times:
Got this in an e-mail:
Sanders was on KPBS this morning. His comment was he felt that timing was premature given the current military focus on Iraq. He wanted to approach the military first to get some acceptance before attempting another run at Miramar. He did indicate that he felt Lindbergh was not capable of sustaining us into the future, at least. Still, I'm not too impressed with his performance . . .
Lindy Field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3072 posts, RR: 15 Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6965 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
I have to admit I would not be too surprised if Pat Flannery's theory that large-scale developers have their eyes on Miramar proved to be true. These guys have had the city's politicians in their pockets for a long time.
Time to dust off the plans to expand the facilities at Lindbergh. How long do you suppose it will be until work can get underway?
Even the normally conservative San Diego newspaper bemoans the defeat.
Back in the 1970's, I remember traffic was showing signs of getting REALLY bad in Southern California. Morning and afternoon rush hours were getting very crowded, yet only minor additions and tweaks were being made to the region's road capacity. Thirty years later, we are approaching a state of insanity on our roads. The same is now happening with our airport capacity - no increase on capacity, ever. Let somebody else do it.
The voters have spoken. Now we will live with the consequences.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
ConjureMe From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 36 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6827 times:
All of you keep talking like you can just take away MCAS Miramar. WTF guys? This is the military we are talking about! If they don't want to leave, they ain't gonna. Civilians have absolutely no say in Miramar. It is beyond their control. Too big, too important to be left in the hands of local politicians.
Never let the plane take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes ago.
Koruman From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 2979 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6824 times:
Pesonally, as a frequent overseas visitor, I must say that one of the best things about San Diego as a place to do business is just how close the airport is to the city. Similarly, SNA is far more convenient much of the time than LAX.
San Diego doesn't actually NEED to duplicate what LAX and SFO can offer long-haul. It's a far more attractive place to fly to and from BECAUSE the airport is a manageable size and an easy commute to the city.
Laxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22024 posts, RR: 51 Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6792 times:
Quoting Koruman (Reply 13): San Diego doesn't actually NEED to duplicate what LAX and SFO can offer long-haul. It's a far more attractive place to fly to and from BECAUSE the airport is a manageable size and an easy commute to the city.
True SAN might not need to duplicate SFO & LAX in the area of international services, however the limited airport capacity simply cannot sustain continued growth of the city.
As is over 20% of greater San Diego traveller either drive to other regional airports, or fly up the coast to LAX initially to make beyond connections due lack of air service options and fare competitiveness.
San Diego's economic development will over time choke due to the lack of accessibility.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Oakjam From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 182 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6740 times:
Well if SD voters did not want a new Airport, for other alternatives like flying to Asia, now AM offers NRT from TIJ. Soon MX will fly to China from TIJ, San Diegans can commute to TIJ for other flight options. Yes the border crossing is horrendous, but deal with it.
Here in the Bay Area we have the Bay Bridge which is just as bad as the border crossing, as well as other congested corridors. When you have congested corridors, use more time for your options wether it be by car or air. Allow for more time during your travels, this is what big city pains are like, if not not move somewhere else.
Tootallsd From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 542 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6621 times:
Quoting ConjureMe (Reply 12): This is the military we are talking about! If they don't want to leave, they ain't gonna.
Are you kidding ME? When did the US become a military dictatorship? The military will do as it is told when the right consensus is built. When the Navy moved to Fallon, the Marines should have never moved to Miramar. What did they spend to bring the base up to minimum standards, I recall $800 million or so.
2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6583 times:
IMHO Some Mexican investors should try to buy a piece of land on the US side of TIJ so to build a U.S. Airport Terminal for TIJ airport, with its satellite and jetways on the Mexican side. Maybe such a solution would work best for San Diego international (but non-Mexican) flights and any U.S. LCC refusing to serve SAN.
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6779 posts, RR: 25 Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6552 times:
Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 5): Congratulations, San Diego voter, you just mortgaged your air transportation future with your politicians at the leinholder. The only worthwhile and immediately workable solution to SAN's issues was a move to Miramar. Land and access are both issues that were easily addressed there.
I think alot of people on A.net who are upset at the outcome of the vote are acting like everyone thinks like us and should think like us. If the majority of the people in San Diego dont want a to adress the airport situation then they dont have to. That doesnt make it wrong. Thats the beauty of democracy. This is what San Diego wants as a whole. In certain circumstances we avaition nerds can be a minority.
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
Judging by past events in SD and the incredible power of the mega-developers, I would not be the least bit surprised if Pat Flannery is 100% correct. Just look 80 miles north at what's happening with (former) El Toro USMCAS...
Another very sad day, another giant step backward, for the future of commercial aviation in So Cal.
Laxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22024 posts, RR: 51 Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6436 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 20): Just look 80 miles north at what's happening with (former) El Toro USMCAS...
Indeed, drove by the El Toro area a few weeks back.
The near 4000 acre area was purchased by developers and will see 20,000 (yes 20,000) new homes, apartments and condo units built over the next 3 years making it the largest redevelopment project in OC history. Along with residential units plans call for golf courses, several shopping centers, high-tech office park, and a large park area already known as the "Great Park".
This follows the current redevelopment of the former Tustin MCAS which itself has sprouted some 2,000 residences.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Boeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6383 times:
Quoting ConjureMe (Reply 12): All of you keep talking like you can just take away MCAS Miramar. WTF guys? This is the military we are talking about! If they don't want to leave, they ain't gonna. Civilians have absolutely no say in Miramar. It is beyond their control. Too big, too important to be left in the hands of local politicians.
Miramar is a gas station. And no, I'm not kidding.
Miramar got so played up on this issue, you'd think it was the only base left in the United States.
Sorry to be harsh, but the Marines flat out lied to people, and they will pay the price in the next couple of years for it. You think people aren't going to keep tabs on their assertions? Ha!
I can hear the lines now:
"Well, we thought we'd be able to base 50 Joint Strike Fighters here, but in the end we couldn't and Yuma was a better option (reality check here peeps. There are 40 Harriers at Yuma today and 50 JSF's headed to the west. If you think they're going to base just 10 of them at Miramar and 40 at Yuma, you're smoking the same crack San Diego voters were yesterday)"
"We wanted to be able to base 70 Ospreys there, but ultimately we couldn't. Now we have a cost problem making Miramar less economically viable then it was in 2006. You guys want to do joint use? If not we have to close Miramar"
What should San Diego's answer be when this occurs: