Bicoastal From , joined today!, posts, RR: Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5509 times:
San Diego county voters showed great wisdom and insight by rejecting yesterday Miramar as the site for a new airport. The vote wasn't even close. If people and businesses want a new airport, no one is forcing them to stay in San Diego. Move! It's too crowded here in San Diego anyway.
Laxintl From United States, joined May 2000, 8372 posts, RR: 11 Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5469 times:
Not supsrising to see the 63 to 37 percent results considering wide local and even national political opposition to the proposal.
If there is anything good out of this, it will require government to pursue an all new facility option instead of the band-aid partial approach which the Miramar proposal was.
San747 From United States, joined Dec 2004, 3065 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5377 times:
Wow... I can't believe the vote all of us San Diegans were waiting for since the 2002 (or so) has actually happened... and of course, the ignorant masses vote it down. I hope my grandfather voted pro-Miramar at least, I explained the advantages of it to him several times.
I couldn't vote because I'm not a resident of San Diego county, BTW. But at any rate, I don't know what's going to happen to my SAN now. This whole process is beginning to sadden me. All this political bullshit is preventing a real solution to be made for Lindbergh...
And no, we can't expand Lindbergh beyond a few more gates, and no, we can't send San Diegans to LA anymore once their 75 million pax cap goes into effect... Eventually, people have to realize that they must do something and look beyond their bullshit excuses...
Gunsontheroof From United States, joined Jan 2006, 2910 posts, RR: 11 Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5356 times:
Quoting Bicoastal (Thread starter): San Diego county voters showed great wisdom and insight by rejecting yesterday Miramar as the site for a new airport. The vote wasn't even close. If people and businesses want a new airport, no one is forcing them to stay in San Diego. Move! It's too crowded here in San Diego anyway.
It's called democracy, deal with it. If the vote wasn't even close, I think it's pretty safe to say that Miramar isn't the answer San Diego voters are looking for.
Tom in NO From United States, joined Nov 1999, 7193 posts, RR: 54 Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5323 times:
Congratulations, San Diego voter, you just mortgaged your air transportation future with your politicians at the leinholder. The only worthwhile and immediately workable solution to SAN's issues was a move to Miramar. Land and access are both issues that were easily addressed there.
Btw, if and when your new airport gets built, and assuming the Camp Pendleton alternative will go away, when we come visit my brother and his family in northern San Diego County (San Marcos), we'll use ONT.
Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
Slider From United States, joined Feb 2004, 4536 posts, RR: 32 Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5309 times:
I'm not terribly familiar with the issue, but from reading just that article, it sounds as if the issue wasn't fully explored, vetted, and planned out before launching as a ballot measure.
Prop. A - a regional airport or regional gridlock. 10/24/06
by Pat Flannery
Look at this picture. What do you see? San Diego's new Regional Airport?
Wrong - it will never happen. Because the Marines will never leave? Wrong again.
Take a look at two huge new residential projects already in play, colored blue opposite. Read what the San Diego City Planning Department has to say about:
Rancho Encantada and East Elliott.
Do you think maybe somebody is not telling us the whole truth here? The developers, City Planning and Development Services have a government/client relationship that is more privileged than attorney/client privilege.
Do you thing that maybe "somebody" has already colored in that area between the two blues? Encantada and Elliott? Personally I believe they have colored in the entire MCAS Miramar area and that that is what their opposition to Prop. A is really all about.
McMillin already owns Rancho Encantada. Read their Winter 2006 Newsletter. It tells a little about what is going on out there. Also the Catholic Bishop of San Diego must know something the rest of us do not. He is building a Catholic School out there.
The one thing we all know for certain is that as sure as the Navy left Miramar, the Marines will leave too. Located right in the heart of a busy metropolitan area it is totally unsuited to their mission. The next training accident will take care of that.
Pardee owns East Elliott. Do you think these two huge developers, McMillin and Pardee are not salivating over all that sweet MCAS land? They want the Marines to leave more than anybody. The last thing they want is a stupid regional airport eating up their precious developable land. That is why Jerry Sanders is not backing Prop. A. McMillin and Pardee made their preference clear to him - with their check books.
So, the North City voters do have a choice: a civilian airport or wall-to-wall housing and bumper-to-bumper traffic. The greater Miramar area could accommodate up to 250,000 people. It will be the last great urbanizing project for San Diego City.
On the other hand what would happen if Prop A. passes? It would be a giant pain in the rear for Sanders' and his developer friends. It would create this conditional land use restriction hanging over the whole North City area. The City Fathers would be constrained by a stupid promise to build a regional airport where thousands of McMillin and Pardee houses properly belong. Look what happened at Brown Field. Pardee took care of Ralph Inzunza and Ralph (with a little last minute help from Dick Murphy) took care of Pardee. Result: FedEx still flies out of Lindberg.
As far as McMillin, Pardee and Sanders are concerned, we already have a perfectly fine one-runway airport located in a convenient soup bowl between Mission Hills and Point Loma. The Lindberg acreage is tiny compared to Miramar. You couldn't even fit a decent shopping center on there let alone a few thousand houses. Lindberg is on tidelands. Between the Port Authority and the Coastal Commission any decent developer would move to Las Vegas rather than go through all that hassle.
So there you have it. That's my take on the airport issue. Vote for Prop A, it may give us some small bargaining chip against the developers and the 500,000 people they will cram in there. Maybe more. Have you seen the way they build these days? How many "city of villages" do you think they could cram into Miramar's 23,000 acres?
In the unlikely chance that Prop A would actually give us a civilian airport at Miramar, when (not if) the Marines leave, a civilian airport would be a lot less noisy than the present MCAS. But it would be a hell of a lot better than what McMillan and Pardee (aided and abetted by our developer-financed Development Services Department) would give us - 500,000 people and total gridlock. That's the real issue, not an airport.
As I said at the top of this blog: the airport will never happen. The developers will never allow an airport to interfere with their carpet development of North City. If you've got any better ideas for fighting density in North City I'd love to hear them.
Boeing7E7 From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5197 times:
Got this in an e-mail:
Sanders was on KPBS this morning. His comment was he felt that timing was premature given the current military focus on Iraq. He wanted to approach the military first to get some acceptance before attempting another run at Miramar. He did indicate that he felt Lindbergh was not capable of sustaining us into the future, at least. Still, I'm not too impressed with his performance . . .
Lindy Field From United States, joined Mar 2001, 2863 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5166 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
I have to admit I would not be too surprised if Pat Flannery's theory that large-scale developers have their eyes on Miramar proved to be true. These guys have had the city's politicians in their pockets for a long time.
Time to dust off the plans to expand the facilities at Lindbergh. How long do you suppose it will be until work can get underway?
PanAm747 From United States, joined Feb 2004, 3716 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5145 times:
Expand Lindbergh?
Not going to happen.
The land at the end of runway 27 was rebuilt into "Liberty Station". New houses and shops.
Expand it to the north? No. The Marine Corps Recruiting Depot is there. Even if the marines left, it is a historical site and can't be touched.
Lindbergh has no possibility of being expanded.
Neither does CLD, nor SNA, nor LGB, nor LAX (other than to its agreed upon capacity limit), nor BUR. In southern California, that leaves only ONT and PSP as being able to expand.
Even the normally conservative San Diego newspaper bemoans the defeat.
Back in the 1970's, I remember traffic was showing signs of getting REALLY bad in Southern California. Morning and afternoon rush hours were getting very crowded, yet only minor additions and tweaks were being made to the region's road capacity. Thirty years later, we are approaching a state of insanity on our roads. The same is now happening with our airport capacity - no increase on capacity, ever. Let somebody else do it.
The voters have spoken. Now we will live with the consequences.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
ConjureMe From United States, joined Oct 2006, 36 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5028 times:
All of you keep talking like you can just take away MCAS Miramar. WTF guys? This is the military we are talking about! If they don't want to leave, they ain't gonna. Civilians have absolutely no say in Miramar. It is beyond their control. Too big, too important to be left in the hands of local politicians.
Never let the plane take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes ago.
Koruman From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 1051 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5025 times:
Pesonally, as a frequent overseas visitor, I must say that one of the best things about San Diego as a place to do business is just how close the airport is to the city. Similarly, SNA is far more convenient much of the time than LAX.
San Diego doesn't actually NEED to duplicate what LAX and SFO can offer long-haul. It's a far more attractive place to fly to and from BECAUSE the airport is a manageable size and an easy commute to the city.
Laxintl From United States, joined May 2000, 8372 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4993 times:
Quoting Koruman (Reply 13): San Diego doesn't actually NEED to duplicate what LAX and SFO can offer long-haul. It's a far more attractive place to fly to and from BECAUSE the airport is a manageable size and an easy commute to the city.
True SAN might not need to duplicate SFO & LAX in the area of international services, however the limited airport capacity simply cannot sustain continued growth of the city.
As is over 20% of greater San Diego traveller either drive to other regional airports, or fly up the coast to LAX initially to make beyond connections due lack of air service options and fare competitiveness.
San Diego's economic development will over time choke due to the lack of accessibility.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Oakjam From United States, joined Jun 2005, 182 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4941 times:
Well if SD voters did not want a new Airport, for other alternatives like flying to Asia, now AM offers NRT from TIJ. Soon MX will fly to China from TIJ, San Diegans can commute to TIJ for other flight options. Yes the border crossing is horrendous, but deal with it.
Here in the Bay Area we have the Bay Bridge which is just as bad as the border crossing, as well as other congested corridors. When you have congested corridors, use more time for your options wether it be by car or air. Allow for more time during your travels, this is what big city pains are like, if not not move somewhere else.
Tootallsd From United States, joined Apr 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4822 times:
Quoting ConjureMe (Reply 12): This is the military we are talking about! If they don't want to leave, they ain't gonna.
Are you kidding ME? When did the US become a military dictatorship? The military will do as it is told when the right consensus is built. When the Navy moved to Fallon, the Marines should have never moved to Miramar. What did they spend to bring the base up to minimum standards, I recall $800 million or so.
2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 2665 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4784 times:
IMHO Some Mexican investors should try to buy a piece of land on the US side of TIJ so to build a U.S. Airport Terminal for TIJ airport, with its satellite and jetways on the Mexican side. Maybe such a solution would work best for San Diego international (but non-Mexican) flights and any U.S. LCC refusing to serve SAN.
LAXdude1023 From United States, joined Sep 2006, 2926 posts, RR: 10 Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4753 times:
Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 5): Congratulations, San Diego voter, you just mortgaged your air transportation future with your politicians at the leinholder. The only worthwhile and immediately workable solution to SAN's issues was a move to Miramar. Land and access are both issues that were easily addressed there.
I think alot of people on A.net who are upset at the outcome of the vote are acting like everyone thinks like us and should think like us. If the majority of the people in San Diego dont want a to adress the airport situation then they dont have to. That doesnt make it wrong. Thats the beauty of democracy. This is what San Diego wants as a whole. In certain circumstances we avaition nerds can be a minority.
Judging by past events in SD and the incredible power of the mega-developers, I would not be the least bit surprised if Pat Flannery is 100% correct. Just look 80 miles north at what's happening with (former) El Toro USMCAS...
Another very sad day, another giant step backward, for the future of commercial aviation in So Cal.
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