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Airbus: A380F Program May Be Cancelled  
User currently offlineShortSquat From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 25 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20888 times:

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/...D=/20061108/BUSINESS/61108032/1003

77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20865 times:

Your article title is misleading; It does not state that the program as a whole will be cancelled. It merely states that the program may suffer cancellations at the hands of the customers.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31436 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20791 times:
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And even if all those freighters are cancelled, my money is on a "program stop" (like Boeing did with the 777-200LR in 2002) more then an outright program termination.

That way, when interest returns, Airbus can complete the work and sell the product.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21589 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20583 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
That way, when interest returns, Airbus can complete the work and sell the product.

Revision:

That way, IF AND when interest returns, Airbus can complete the work and sell the product.

There is no indication that any cargo operator is interested in the A380F for now or for the future. Those who can use it best are bailing or soon will, and other carriers have voted for the 777F and 748F with their dollars since both were launched.

Airbus would be smartest to shift resources to the A330F program ASAP.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5803 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20491 times:

The thing is since Boeign introduced the 748F, there hasn't been any takers for the A380F. Even KE which will use the A388 has ruled them out in favor of the 777F or the 748F.

I think Airbus is slowly starting to realize that the A380F might be too heavy structurally (like Boeing said) to be moving all the freight around. A lot of airlines have come to that conclusion too.

[Edited 2006-11-08 21:23:20]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20457 times:

Looks like there is more change going on at Airbus than in Washington DC.

Long term FedEx has probably done Airbus a favor and UPS will probably be following.

The 380F program seems to me to have a far lower priority on resources at Airbus than any of their other current and future programs. Time for it to be put on hold for a while.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5803 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20369 times:

Actually Airbus wouldbe wise to reallocate resources from the A380F to the A388 so they can get that pup out the door.

They are trully on the edge with this program as far as the airline customers are concerned. They can weather small cancellations like TG and MAS but they can't afford to lose EK or any others. That would destroy the program.

Given what has been happening with the A380 program I doubt you'll see another all new VLA program for at least a decade or more andthat is after the A380 has been thourghly been analyzed and discussed as a case study (as both an engineering case study as well as a managment-operations case study).



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 20000 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
Airbus would be smartest to shift resources to the A330F program ASAP.

Indeed. This increases the pressure to base the A330F on an A330E with B787 engines.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 19953 times:

Quote:
The 20-year market forecast by ACMG projects a need for more than 500 new wide-body production freighters — a lot of business to leave on the table for Boeing.

The crisis with the A380 also appears to be having an impact on Airbus' ability to launch its A350 plane against the 787.

McVitie said that a decision on whether to launch the A350, rumored for this week, has been pushed out indefinitely in the face of disagreements within Airbus on how to finance that airplane, where to build it and how much of it should be made from plastic.

"They're trying to keep the A380 program from collapsing. It's 'all hands on deck,' " said ACMG's Laird. Until that's done, no other decisions can be made. "Airbus is in paralysis," he said.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...aerospace/2003364882_boeing08.html


User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 19837 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
Quote:
The 20-year market forecast by ACMG projects a need for more than 500 new wide-body production freighters --- a lot of business to leave on the table for Boeing.

The crisis with the A380 also appears to be having an impact on Airbus' ability to launch its A350 plane against the 787.

McVitie said that a decision on whether to launch the A350, rumored for this week, has been pushed out indefinitely in the face of disagreements within Airbus on how to finance that airplane, where to build it and how much of it should be made from plastic.

"They're trying to keep the A380 program from collapsing. It's 'all hands on deck,' " said ACMG's Laird. Until that's done, no other decisions can be made. "Airbus is in paralysis," he said.

Intriqueing !

It appears that the FedEx A380 cancellation has put the XWB-A350 project on hold ! Due to the adjective A380 project .


User currently offlineBrowntailwhale From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 19742 times:

CHICAGO, Nov 8 (Reuters) - Package delivery company United Parcel Service
Inc. (UPS.N: Quote, Profile, Research) is in no rush to cancel its order of
10 A380s from Airbus (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research), UPS' top executive
said on Wednesday.

"We are not pressed to make a decision," Chief Executive Officer Mike Eskew
said at a company investor conference that was Web cast.

Eskew said UPS has enough other planes scheduled for delivery over the next
two years to cover its immediate needs. "Our backs are not against the wall
on this issue," he said.

UPS has an option on another 10 A380s


User currently offlineKatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 706 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 19651 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
McVitie said that a decision on whether to launch the A350, rumored for this week, has been pushed out indefinitely in the face of disagreements within Airbus on how to finance that airplane, where to build it and how much of it should be made from plastic.

Read: France is willing to support Airbus with "launch aid" at whaterver cost (in the end, Airbus is a matter of national pride), but Germany is reluctant to "scratch the balls of a sleeping tiger", i.e. upset the USA and turn the issue into a full-front battle in the WTO. Leahy and the sales guys are pushing for a "plastic" plane to be able to present a meaningfull competitor to the B787, but the financial guys are saying that it is too expensive to develop, and the engineers are not sure if they can build one in due time given the massive workload to sort out A380 issues, get their CAD platform right, and re-design the supply chain to keep manufacturing costs competitive.


User currently offlineSwissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 19501 times:

Quoting Browntailwhale (Reply 11):
CHICAGO, Nov 8 (Reuters) - Package delivery company United Parcel Service
Inc. (UPS.N: Quote, Profile, Research) is in no rush to cancel its order of
10 A380s from Airbus (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research), UPS' top executive
said on Wednesday.

"We are not pressed to make a decision," Chief Executive Officer Mike Eskew
said at a company investor conference that was Web cast.

Eskew said UPS has enough other planes scheduled for delivery over the next
two years to cover its immediate needs. "Our backs are not against the wall
on this issue," he said.

UPS has an option on another 10 A380s

Thanks mate!!! so since I have no reason to not trust statemend above , all of us should not put UPS in the same pot with FX, UPS will do wathever it needs to do and not because FX did it ........

AB needs to push and somehow has to get out of the mud and that includs the A380F..........

Cheers,


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2188 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 19480 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
Those who can use it best are bailing or soon will

We all know about FedEx...who else do you foresee "bailing or soon will"?



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3602 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 19292 times:

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 12):
Read: France is willing to support Airbus with "launch aid" at whaterver cost (in the end, Airbus is a matter of national pride), but Germany is reluctant to "scratch the balls of a sleeping tiger", i.e. upset the USA and turn the issue into a full-front battle in the WTO. Leahy and the sales guys are pushing for a "plastic" plane to be able to present a meaningfull competitor to the B787, but the financial guys are saying that it is too expensive to develop, and the engineers are not sure if they can build one in due time given the massive workload to sort out A380 issues, get their CAD platform right, and re-design the supply chain to keep manufacturing costs competitive.

I would say that this was one of the most insightful and articulate posts on A.net that I have read in a long time.

Well done Katekebo!
 trophy 


User currently offlineUPS Pilot From United States of America, joined May 1999, 871 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 19227 times:

The Fed Ex cancelation will move up UPS' delivery slots about a year. Fred was wanting somebody to cancel so the samething would happen for Fed Ex. It came down to crunch time so he had to make a decision to keep the order or cancel. UPS ordered 744f and 744 conversions around the same time as the A380. UPS also still has outstanding MD-11 conversions so the lift is there. The A380 was needed by both companies out of China for existing slots. It would give both a buy one get one free so to speak for each landing slot we have. The cancelation will force Fed EX to aquire more flights to China.

User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 728 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 19173 times:

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 12):
(in the end, Airbus is a matter of national pride)

That's why they are in this mess! I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but they are never going to make a reasonable return on the A380. I can't understand why they don't just drop it and move on to bigger and better things.


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8198 posts, RR: 54
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 18712 times:

While I'm personally very angry and disappointed with Airbus to have got so close to building a perfect machine and seemingly fallen badly on the final hurdle, I do think that the inexorably expanding demand for air travel and air cargo almost guarantees the success of the A380. This will become even more the case with the constantly (and forever more) rising price of oil, the biggest and newest aircraft will offer the best fuel efficiency per tonne or mile. God knows what the price of a barrel of oil will be in 2010 when the A380 backlog starts to clear and aircraft deliveries can be promised on time and go from signature to delivery in a fairly short amount of time. I'd be cancelling if I was FedEx, but I can't help think they'll be back.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineAdria From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 18660 times:

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 12):
France is willing to support Airbus with "launch aid" at whaterver cost (in the end, Airbus is a matter of national pride),

Heeh, "launch aid" helped the 787 and Airbus has been a very successful and profitable airline in the past and it will be in the future. Your comment clearly shows that you are not capable of reading some financial facts about a company.

Quoting PVG (Reply 17):
That's why they are in this mess! I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but they are never going to make a reasonable return on the A380. I can't understand why they don't just drop it and move on to bigger and better things.

...and you can already tell how successful the A380 is going to be in the future?


User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1301 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 18550 times:

Didnt UPS cancel a big chunk of A300-600's and convert that into their A380 orders/options? If so that would explain them being in no rush to cancel the 380's.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31436 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 18545 times:
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Quoting Flaps (Reply 20):
Didnt UPS cancel a big chunk of A300-600's and convert that into their A380 orders/options? If so that would explain them being in no rush to cancel the 380's.

Yes, though 5X could convert those conversions to A330F orders so they are not obligated to take the A380F to protect their deposits.


User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 728 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 18342 times:

Quoting Adria (Reply 19):
and you can already tell how successful the A380 is going to be in the future?

Per their own calcs. they are going to have to sell 420 units just to break even. There are other options now that will be available to airlines that can offer the same economics as the A380 without having the pressure of trying to fill 500 seats everyday. Airbus is now having to go back to the drawing board for a product that was already supposed to have been in service, who know if they will ever be able to build it!

The nature of this business and many other capital intensive businesses is that you look at a set of facts and circumstances today while making investment decisions with huge amounts of money that may or may not pay off 5-10 years down the road. Does anyone really know what's going to happen 5 years from now? Not really. However, you do your best with the inputs you have today and make your decision and live with it. From all the inputs that we have today, I doubt that Airbus would make the same decision that they made 6 years ago.

Therefore, since they haven't started delivering the A380 and they are now having to go back and do substantial re-design just to get it to do what they promised airlines 6 years ago in addition to the fact that it's severely crimping their ability to compete on other fronts, they really need to reconsider the program.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 17999 times:

Quoting Flaps (Reply 20):
Didnt UPS cancel a big chunk of A300-600's and convert that into their A380 orders/options? If so that would explain them being in no rush to cancel the 380's.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Yes, though 5X could convert those conversions to A330F orders so they are not obligated to take the A380F to protect their deposits.

I've been trying to figure out what's going on here with the UPS A380F order as well. I can't imagine that the A380F program makes sense for Airbus with only 15 frames on order and generally slim prospects for additional orders over the next several years. One would think that they probably have better uses for the money and the engineering talent that would be needed to bring the freighter derivative to market (as well as providing earlier passenger A380 slots to existing customers).

As Stitch suggested further above, perhaps the best solution for Airbus now would be to defer the A380F program indefinitely until the market need arises. They can then devote their attention and euros to other products which are more critical to the company's future.

What I think is going on with UPS's comments is that we're seeing a bit of negotiating through the press. UPS certainly has a plan for using the A380F's if they end up actually being delivered, but I suspect that they'd be just as happy not taking them and having A330F's or 777F's instead. The 5X A380 order was tied to them being allowed to cancel a large part of their A300-600F order -- and one would expect that a customer that really, really wanted A380F's might not have needed such an inducement. I'm of a mind that UPS is trying to get Airbus to sweeten whatever sort of deal is being discussed behind the scenes which would allow 5X to "defer" or "convert" A380F orders. I'd guess that the ILFC orders would be switched to regular passenger orders just as EK did or perhaps to A330F orders.


User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2612 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 17740 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
The 380F program seems to me to have a far lower priority on resources at Airbus than any of their other current and future programs. Time for it to be put on hold for a while



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Actually Airbus wouldbe wise to reallocate resources from the A380F to the A388 so they can get that pup out the door.

 checkmark  and  checkmark 
Devoting resources to what amounts to a 15 frame derivative now is counter-productive. They need to get the pax version delivered in quantity to their customers and get a revenue stream flowing. They also need to get cracking on whatever they decide the A350 is to be before ceding that entire market to Boeing. Face it, Boeing's already cornered the large freighter market, don't throw good money and resources after bad chasing them there.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 17680 times:

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 18):
the biggest and newest aircraft will offer the best fuel efficiency per tonne or mile.

That's normally the case, but it is increasingly clear that the A350-1000 and B787-10 will have lower CASM than either the B747-8I SuperJumbo or the WhaleJet. Same would be true with an A350F/B787F at least against the A380F and perhaps even against the B747-8F. Even an A330F with B787 engines looks like it would beat the WhaleJet in tonne-mile costs.

Quoting PVG (Reply 22):
There are other options now that will be available to airlines that can offer the same economics as the A380 without having the pressure of trying to fill 500 seats everyday.

 checkmark 


25 Post contains images Ikramerica : I hope people don't translate this to mean 500 new build Freighters 33% larger than anything else on offer, because that would be silly. A300F, A330F
26 Post contains images Swissy : The return is relative considering the whole picture.... I know the majority of us including me were not around when the 747 was coming to the market
27 Zvezda : Sure it is. UPS don't handle a lot of packages that wouldn't fit in an A330F. It's all about tonne-mile costs.
28 DLPMMM : Airbus cannot afford to dump the A380 as a project financially, as they need the revenue stream, and the additional costs to be spent verses the futu
29 Curmudgeon : The early program was promising, and on balance the smart money back then was on reaching break even + 100 or so frames. The 747 was replacing relati
30 N328KF : Well, now take the A380-800F and give it the following characteristics (admittedly not easy):Uprated engines. Between 85-95Klbf of thrust. This could
31 Zvezda : No, tonne-mile costs would be even higher than now which is why it's not selling. Redesigning the WhaleJet to compete against the An-124 rather than
32 Pygmalion : Feb 2001 British Airways Fleet Planning Manager Dick Wyatt
33 Post contains images Glideslope : Speaking of capability: When did Airbus become an Airline?
34 Glideslope : For which you have NO R&D Funding. Airbus needs to build something out of the 350 mess or they are history. The 380F will be gone by the end of the y
35 A330323X : China cargo frequencies aren't nearly as in demand as you might think. This year, 15 more frequencies were made available. FedEx applied for 4, North
36 Swissy : Exactly my point....... As we all know the world is still turning.... and more and more airports will have no other choice and and will have to imply
37 Jetfixr757 : 5X needs to convert the 380's back to 300's and move on the 7478F that would be the right decision for 5x, the 74's can do a hell of a job and they kn
38 Pygmalion : not in any near future and I am talking decades not years. Thousands of airports in the world and a handful (or less) are slot restricted. For cargo
39 Carpethead : Problem is the A300/310 line is closing next year. The biggest problem with the A380F is the logistical nightmare of procuring new equipment to load/
40 N328KF : Look out below!
41 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Oversize (in height) cargo and dense cargo are very different animals, and you will almost never find cargo that fits both descriptions. A dense carg
42 Jetfixr757 : Guys, the 330F is still on paper, the 300-600f is proven, the 747-F has been proven. FX is delving into uncharted ground with the 777F, they have neve
43 N328KF : Do cargolifters give a crap about ETOPS?
44 MasseyBrown : Accounting question: Under generally accepted European accounting, if the A380F model were to be cancelled, would all identifiable "F" costs be writte
45 Areopagus : Swing-nose or swing-tail is a huge modification. It would need external aid to support the open section when it is swung open, like the 747LCF. That
46 Post contains images Longhaulheavy : Just give the pilots a couple of chutes and a raft!
47 OldAeroGuy : Please share the routes that UPS serves or plans to serve that cannot be flown by the 777 with 180 min. ETOPS or where the 777 routes would be longer
48 Post contains images Astuteman : You read that if you want. I'll pass. Now THIS is where the politics comes in, because changing from a metal to a plastic plane may well completely s
49 PEK18R36L : Sit down one day with the leadership of JL or NH and talk to them about "inexorably expanding demand for air travel and air cargo" and the importance
50 KC135TopBoom : Didn't President Bush say, just last week, that SOD Rumsfeld was going to stay around for the remainder of his admistration? In other words, things d
51 ATCGOD : I don't see why everyone here is thinking FX will be back to the A380. If they wanted the aircraft, they'd have deferred to a later date instead of l
52 Stitch : All of the freighters have/had Engine Alliance GP7200 powerplants. FX cancelling results in the loss of 40 confirmed and 40 optional engines. If 5X a
53 ATCGOD : Exactly, but why would Airbus ever offer them any kind of discount to go back to the A380 after they completely snubbed them like this? Also, at the
54 Post contains images Adria : Rumours say the A380 is performing as promised so don't know what you mean here... Well then I suggest you stick to your own advice then before makin
55 Post contains images Stitch : I would argue Airbus snubbed FX more then FX snubbed Airbus. Airbus is not able to deliver the A388F when negotiated and may still not be able to pro
56 ATCGOD : Rumors are just rumors. I'm officially starting a rumor right now saying that the A380 is grossly underperforming. See? Don't take stock in rumors. B
57 Leelaw : R & D is not capitalized, but expensed as incurred; only capitalized property, plant, and equipment (e.g. tooling, etc.) specific to this variant whi
58 Stitch : Actually it is more then rumors. Airbus has made multiple statements that the flight test birds are performing at or above guarantees and targets. Th
59 Joni : Wow, you really can read between the lines.. but I have to wonder if you're paying enough attention to the words _on_ the lines.
60 Osiris30 : Don't know if I agree with you on the 350XWB. The 330F may also be in a bit more flux as it may get new engines at this point. I do agree that the 33
61 Stitch : I guess it depends on if Airbus goes with the "A350XWB Mk. I" with Al-Li or decides to move to the "A350XWB Mk. II" with CFRP. They probably know the
62 Osiris30 : That was kind of my point. I don't think Airbus know which of those options they'll be pursuing yet.. so to say the 350XWB is much more than paper at
63 Post contains images Art : Last thing Airbus should do at the moment is to move onto bigger and better things.
64 MasseyBrown : That is certainly true in the US; is it also true in the EU? I believe under UK law R&D may or may not be capitalized.
65 Post contains links Leelaw : For the first nine months of 2006 (1/1-09/30/06), EADS expensed EU1.41B of R & D related to all Airbus programs (EADS doesn't provide a breakdown per
66 Post contains links PVG : http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15642210/ They are going to be delivering the first 100 or so units at a loss. Even they end up selling say 500 in total and
67 DLPMMM : They will have to pay off the A380 development expenses over the next 15-20 years anyway. This way they will have something to sell to recoup at leas
68 MasseyBrown : Thanks for those numbers, Leelaw. Apparently, however it gets charged off, it shouldn't be too huge.
69 PVG : Yes, I understand the argument. But what about the opportunity cost? Delaying or not competing effectively in the mid-market widebody and single aisl
70 Astuteman : Unfortunately, PVG, the opportunity cost of undertaking the A380 has already been realised. Cancelling it now would not change that. The development
71 Adria : My opinion on the A380 is that it will be a long-temr success because if Boeing says there is a demand for 1000 new VLAs than this number could be ev
72 PVG : Yes, but I think that they are compounding it. However, you make a valid point. OK, so let's say that the market is 1000 units, or 1500 units, or eve
73 Post contains images Astuteman : True. It'd be silly for me to say ALL the spending has been done. My thanks. If I post often enough, some valid points have to get through, just on a
74 Osiris30 : Wasn't there an article elsewhere that hinted at another possible 3 months of delay for the 380 program(me)? Anyone heard more?
75 Parapente : I hope everyone has enjoyed this forum as it may well be a "boeing" forum sooner than many think.3 years ago a Boeing spokesperson stated "Airbus have
76 Bringiton : Take it easy My freind !!
77 Astuteman : There were. Not me, not yet, anyway. Regards
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