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Converting 777 From Pax To Cargo  
User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1124 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

Now with the new program from boeing that convert the 747 from passenger configuration to a cargo. I was wondering is it possible to convert a passenger 777-200(ER) or 777-300 to a cargo aircraft? The 777 is in the market for more than a decade now, is it still new to be converted to a cargo?

If yes why it didn't happen yet? which airline would do it first?

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5040 times:

Any aircraft with enough engineering can be converted to cargo. It may well happen one day but not in the near term. Boeing can't push out enough 777 passenger aircraft to meet demand. The majority of the owners are very happy with the 777. I've recently flown on older UA 777s. They are a bit tatty but the rebranding will take care of that. That's just about the only age related issue out there yet.

User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1729 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4826 times:

The value of existing 777 is too high to make a good business model for pax to freighter conversion. As soon as that changes a number of reconfig comanies will be all over it.

Tod


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4804 times:

You won't see see pax to cargo conversions until they have actually started producing 777F's. Once that is in place and they are delivering them i bet we will start seeing some of the origional 772's being converted within a few years. My guess is on 2010-2012 (15-17 years old for the oldest 772's).

Additionally... when the 767 line finally closes (3-10 years from now depending on USAF tanker order is my guess) we will see about the same time the 787F program will also be launched.



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User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1729 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4719 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 3):
You won't see see pax to cargo conversions until they have actually started producing 777F's

Why?

Tod


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4676 times:

Quoting Tod (Reply 4):

Because i said so...  Wink j/k

They would be potentially squashing early 777F orders by offering a 777BCF so quickly. They never have offered a BCF prior to a factory Freighter, why would they start now? Until they have completely got the bugs worked out of a 777F and are producing them you wouldn't want to put the extra energy into a BCF when you are already doing it for the real thing.

There WILL be a 777BCF, there will be a 787BCF and there will be a 748BCF... its just a matter of time, not if but when.
It will probably be only a matter of time after the 737-700C is out in the market before they start offereing 737BCF's.



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User currently offlineLotsamiles From United States of America, joined May 2005, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4639 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 3):
You won't see see pax to cargo conversions until they have actually started producing 777F's

Keep in mind that only Boeing makes the "BCF" (likely with the 777F door and systems). Others can enter this market to product 777SF's with their own designs.

The timing is driven by market forces of supply / demand / aircraft values and supplier interest as Tod points out.

Regards,
Lotsamiles


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 989 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4629 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 5):
They would be potentially squashing early 777F orders by offering a 777BCF so quickly.

Keep in mind that the 777F will carry much more cargo than any converted 777.

Consider the following max structural payloads:
772ER - 126,000 lbs (57,000 kg)
772LR - 141,000 lbs (64,000 kg)
777F - 229,000 lbs (104,000 kg)  weightlifter   wideeyed 

If your business is general cargo, the 777F has significantly more value than a converted 772ER. The primary market for 772ER conversion will be parcel carriers who don't need the incredible payload density of the 777F.

Cargo density has been on an upward trend for some time, so I doubt availability of conversion will greatly mitigate the 777F.

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
I was wondering is it possible to convert a passenger 777-200(ER) or 777-300 to a cargo aircraft? The 777 is in the market for more than a decade now, is it still new to be converted to a cargo?

The 772ER is the most likely candidate for freighter conversion. The 772ER should be an excellent MD-11 replacement, as well as a complement to the 777F.

The 772A and 773A would have a fairly low payload density (ratio between aircraft volume and the mass the aircraft can lift), but might find a market in the parcel sector. More likely, these fringe variants will either end up in desert or flying charters like todays DC-10 and L-1011.

The only problem I know of with a 777 conversion are the floor beams of the passenger 777. IIRC, the CFRP floor beams aren't strong enough to support a roller floor and container cargo, so any conversion would need to include floor reinforcement of some kind.


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4619 times:

I was told that the 777 passenger main deck floor is not designed to take cargo loads -- so the main deck floor would have to be completely redesigned and retrofitted for a 777 passenger to cargo conversion.

[EDIT: DfwRevolution made the same comment while I was typing  Smile ]

[Edited 2006-11-09 22:36:19]


The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4609 times:

Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 6):
Keep in mind that only Boeing makes the "BCF"

Yes... hence why i was specifically talking about a BCF.

Regarding the 737 freighters there is lots of 734's being converted to SF's, which is obviously not a BCF, but i beleive that in time will come.

Here at KPAE, Goodrich does a lot of aircraft conversions. Most recently they converted a Ethiopian 752 to a 752PF.

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Photo © Nick Goodwin




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User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
Consider the following max structural payloads:
772ER - 126,000 lbs (57,000 kg)
772LR - 141,000 lbs (64,000 kg)
777F - 229,000 lbs (104,000 kg)

If your business is general cargo, the 777F has significantly more value than a converted 772ER. The primary market for 772ER conversion will be parcel carriers who don't need the incredible payload density of the 777F.

What determines those max structural payloads, Dfw? I find it hard to grasp why the gap between the LR and the F is so immense. Is it based on interior equipment, the floor loading for the pax floor, etc? That is truly an astonishing difference for what is essentially the same airplane. The gap between the 744BCF and and 744F aren't that big, are they?



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineLotsamiles From United States of America, joined May 2005, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4540 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
The only problem I know of with a 777 conversion are the floor beams of the passenger 777. IIRC, the CFRP floor beams aren't strong enough to support a roller floor and container cargo, so any conversion would need to include floor reinforcement of some kind.

This really is not any different than most other widebody conversions as they typically involve replacing all of the floorbeams (747, A300). I know that many MD11's were built with freighter beams so that aircraft is an exception.

Regards,
Lotsamiles


User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1729 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4533 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
The only problem I know of with a 777 conversion are the floor beams of the passenger 777. IIRC, the CFRP floor beams aren't strong enough to support a roller floor and container cargo, so any conversion would need to include floor reinforcement of some kind.

With Boeing holding the stress data very closely and the other problems relating to modifying the CFRP floor beams, this may prove to be the biggest challenge for the aftermarket companies.

Hey Beech19, how many of those 757 have been completed? Is Bill Wagner still involved?

Tod

[Edited 2006-11-09 23:22:42]

User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4508 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
Keep in mind that the 777F will carry much more cargo than any converted 777

Good point... and the floor beams would be an issue.



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