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Will The A380 Certify In 2006?  
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3473 posts, RR: 67
Posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7929 times:

The FI link below indicates that 15 Dec is the target date for A380 EASA certification. That is only 35 days from now with the end of 2006 only 51 days away.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...deadline+for+Airbus+A380+type.html

However, it appears that the A380 is still doing significant certification testing from the links below.

http://mbl.is/mm/frettir/frett.html?nid=1234046

http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fA...=3516785&fSectionId=566&fSetId=662

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/290663_airbus01.html

Certification testing still being done includes cross winds, autolands and of course route proving.

My own experience says that if this level of testing is going on only a month before planned certification, it's unlikely that you're going to make the certification date.

What do others on the forum think?

If the certification does slip into 2007, does it really matter? (Aside from an Airbus sense of accomplishment.)


Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7907 times:

With the 787's tight schedule, I would assume that B will also be doing heavy testing up until the last minute. I don't think you can assume that the A380 is not going to make it's Dec 15th "schedule" (cough, cough) based on the testing going on now.

As for Dec 15th being part of any schedule, that's the laugher. That date has been pushed back so many times, who the hell knows if it was picked out of a hat or a date that actually means something inside Airbus at this point. Considering delivery is nearly a year away, I'm not sure why Dec 15th really matters at all.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7879 times:

Oldy, A380 visited it´s 13th country today, Iceland.

User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7845 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
As for Dec 15th being part of any schedule, that's the laugher. That date has been pushed back so many times, who the hell knows if it was picked out of a hat or a date that actually means something inside Airbus at this point. Considering delivery is nearly a year away, I'm not sure why Dec 15th really matters at all.

Hi Ikramerica,

Well with this situation, the date has not been picked out of a hat. I you had read closely the FI report you would come across the following information.

According to sources close to the process, EASA is working towards Friday 15 December for the approval. European industry closes for the entire week starting 25 December for the Christian religious festival of Christmas and do not return until 2 January 2007. Many workers also take the week commencing 18 December as additional vacation, making 15 December effectively one of the last working days in 2006.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...deadline+for+Airbus+A380+type.html

I too would not be surprised if they manage to miss this date for certification. The have very little credibility when it comes to the A380 program. Who knows maybe they just may make. God knows that they need some positive PR for a change.  Smile

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7791 times:

What ever happen to the wing test? As it signed off on or not? I don't remember seeing anything about that for months.

User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1855 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7774 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Thread starter):
Certification testing still being done includes cross winds, autolands and of course route proving.

My own experience says that if this level of testing is going on only a month before planned certification, it's unlikely that you're going to make the certification date.

Route proving might not need to be completed for the type certificate. But others have to be. In fact, I recall the route proving tests were delayed last month so that they could complete other tests.

Airbus needs to reduce and analyze the data, prepare certification reports, and so forth. So, Dec 15 seems to be very tight.

FWIW, I thought Airbus had done the autoland tests very early on during the flight test. If I reall, it was around July or August of last year. They talked about how unusal for an aircraft program to do the autoland tests that early.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4312 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7759 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Considering delivery is nearly a year away, I'm not sure why Dec 15th really matters at all.

Could it be they want to free up valuable engineering resources to tackle the wiring (and other) problems? If they get the regulatory certifications out of the way they could focus all efforts on getting the delivery schedule back on track.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30393 posts, RR: 84
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7759 times:
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This is just the "general" type certificate, correct? With the "manufacturer" configuration.

Once they receive that, then they start on SQ's type certificate, followed by EK's and then QF's and then all the rest, correct?


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3473 posts, RR: 67
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7713 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
This is just the "general" type certificate, correct? With the "manufacturer" configuration.

Once they receive that, then they start on SQ's type certificate, followed by EK's and then QF's and then all the rest, correct?

Correct on all counts. Every individual airplane must show certification compliance. If an individual airplane is essentially like a previously certified version of the same model, the compliance review is generally small. If there are big changes, like a new interior, compliance can be very involved. However, very few transport category airplanes are identical. Either the OEM or the airlines always has a few changes.

It keeps the certification troops busy and drives the factory nuts.

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 6):
Route proving might not need to be completed for the type certificate.

No, the route testing needs to be completed for the basic TC. The requirement is to show that the airplane can function as a completely integrated product in the air transport system (airport compatibility, communications, etc).



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7691 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Thread starter):
If the certification does slip into 2007, does it really matter? (Aside from an Airbus sense of accomplishment.)

Type or production certification?

Type, probably yes. Production, no.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7691 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 5):
What ever happen to the wing test? As it signed off on or not? I don't remember seeing anything about that for months.

It was a nonevent, as Airbus was able to show to the authorities via their FEM's that adding some extra stringers, fasteners, etc would solve that problem.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7678 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
It was a nonevent, as Airbus was able to show to the authorities via their FEM's that adding some extra stringers, fasteners, etc would solve that problem.....

Thank you, I figured as much


User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7653 times:

I'm inclined to believe they'll make the type certificate on Dec 15th, as I#ve been told that cabin electrics is not part of it.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7645 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 4):
Well with this situation, the date has not been picked out of a hat. I you had read closely the FI report you would come across the following information.

That makes sense, but my point was that if it REALLY mattered to Airbus, they would make people stay until Dec 16th, or 17th, etc., not let them take an extra week of vacation.

I've never seen a company with such troubles operate with a complete lack of urgency. I think it shows a structural deficiency in the corporation.

But beyond that, only a few weeks ago they were still talking about November certification...

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 10):
Type, probably yes. Production, no.

I really doubt it matters in the grand scheme of things. But they decided they want to keep to "certified in 2006" so they are going to try to do it. Sort of.

I think they have a good chance of making it, anyway. The biggest hurdle is getting all the paperwork in order and certified as actually describing the aircraft in question...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7626 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
my point was that if it REALLY mattered to Airbus, they would make people stay until Dec 16th, or 17th, etc, not let them take an extra week of vacation.

Certification is done not by Airbus, but by EASA, a European government institution. The end of year is a public holiday period in Europe and even if Airbus would keep on working as normal, all government institutions are closed then. Since you can't just call civil servants in to work during public holidays, not even to certify the A380, it is either Dec 25th at the very latest or next year...

This has nothing to do with any difficiencies within Airbus' organisation, it is just the way the labour market in Europe is regulated.


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7574 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):

That makes sense, but my point was that if it REALLY mattered to Airbus, they would make people stay until Dec 16th, or 17th, etc., not let them take an extra week of vacation.

I've never seen a company with such troubles operate with a complete lack of urgency. I think it shows a structural deficiency in the corporation.

But beyond that, only a few weeks ago they were still talking about November certification...

I agree with you 100% in regards to Airbus inability to make the deadlines with the A380 program. It indeed has become pathetic to be more accurate. Lets just see if they actually make it this time.

It just saddens me to know that just a few months ago SQ was to receive their first A380 in December. How on earth did they f_ _k up the whole program, that now we will have to wait an additional 10 months for SQ to get their first frame. This is if they don't manage to out do them selves and slip again. With what we have seen from Airbus it is more than probable to happen. It's just pathetic.

On another note does any member actually believe that Airbus might actually deliver it's first frame prior to the October date?

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7499 times:

What exactly happens at Certification? Apart from legal clearance to fly the plane,
Does the weight of the plane become public knowledge?
Does any other information come to light that will help for more accurate calculations about the certified plane's performance figures?


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7461 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 12):

Thank you, I figured as much

You are welcome, as you stated there was a lot talk about it when it broke below the expected (needed) value, but virtually no talk about it when the problem was basically solved.



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3473 posts, RR: 67
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7415 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 17):
What exactly happens at Certification? Apart from legal clearance to fly the plane,
Does the weight of the plane become public knowledge?
Does any other information come to light that will help for more accurate calculations about the certified plane's performance figures?

A few things can be gleaned from the readily available certification information.

Some of the things that become public knowledge will be:

The MZFW, MTOW and MLW will displayed, but the really interesting number, MEW, will not.

Certified Noise data will be available.

For those that can get a Flight Manual, alot of certification performance data will be shown, including takeoff and landing field lengths, climb capability etc. However, there will be very little data that is part the airplane economic performance since fuel mileage is not certification data.

Flight Manuals used to be part of the public record but since they can be used for competitive analysis, AFM's are now controlled documents and you have to have the approval of the OEM to get one.

A few other facts can be gleaned from the Type Cert Data sheet, but there should not be a significant amount of new airplane information available when the TC is issued.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 785 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7391 times:

If an when the A380 travels to the U.S., will the FAA also have confirm its airworthiness. As far as EASA is concerned a British parliamentary report had some scathing words for it in a just released report, calling it "half-baked" and "an accident waiting to happen."

See link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6127508.stm


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3473 posts, RR: 67
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7367 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
That makes sense, but my point was that if it REALLY mattered to Airbus, they would make people stay until Dec 16th, or 17th, etc., not let them take an extra week of vacation.



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15):
Certification is done not by Airbus, but by EASA, a European government institution. The end of year is a public holiday period in Europe and even if Airbus would keep on working as normal, all government institutions are closed then. Since you can't just call civil servants in to work during public holidays, not even to certify the A380, it is either Dec 25th at the very latest or next year...

Yes, Airbus' part of cert timing was making sure the cert data was available early enough so EASA had time to finish their reviews prior to the desired cert date.

Extra Airbus work to speed up the cert process would have been done over the last two years as it is impossible to catch up in the last month or so.

However, it is a bummer when you schedule a cert date near a major holiday. Neither EASA or the FAA are inclined to cancel holidays or pay overtime to make sure you hit your desired cert date.

I think Airbus would have been wise to move the cert date into 2007 when the latest delivery delays were announced. Depending on EASA in Dec is a bad choice. Maybe I'll be surprised.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 966 posts, RR: 38
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7345 times:

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 20):
If an when the A380 travels to the U.S., will the FAA also have confirm its airworthiness. As far as EASA is concerned a British parliamentary report had some scathing words for it in a just released report, calling it "half-baked" and "an accident waiting to happen."

The FAA accepts a EASA TC (vice versa also) There are a few rules that are different but not many and those are usually handled on the side.


User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7293 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 19):

Thanks for the info but just so I am up to speed with the numerous "aviationisms"

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 19):
The MZFW, MTOW MLW MEW,

maximun zero fuel weight? maximum take off weight, maximum load weight? maximum empty weight?

When do the figures apply? If I have the correct terms when does the take off and load weight apply? equally the zero fuel and empty weight?


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3473 posts, RR: 67
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7287 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 23):
maximun zero fuel weight? maximum take off weight, maximum load weight? maximum empty weight?

The first two are right. The second two are Maximum Landing Weight and Manufacturer's Empty Weight.

The last is the most interesting since if this were to be known, it would provide the answer to the A380 overweight question.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 966 posts, RR: 38
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7214 times:

OEW + PAX + Baggage+ Cargo = MZFW
MZFW + Fuel = MTOW

OEW is fixed (weight of the basic airplane). MTOW is a fixed structural and power limit. All others are variables. But when you add them all up to get MTOW, they have to be less than MTOW. So, if maximum fuel and maximum payload is higher than MTOW then something has to come off either limiting your payload or your range.


25 EbbUK : Thanks to the both of you. I am learning all the time. Can't wait to start crunching through the numbers.
26 OldAeroGuy : It's not quite this simple. Both Airbus and Boeing try to do both EASA and FAA TC's at the same time to save work, but the FAA will not automatically
27 Atmx2000 : Off topic, but why does a Western aviation magazine based in the UK have to refer to Christmas as a Christian religous festival? PC gone amok or are
28 Post contains images Swissy : OAG, how true it either will prove the pros here were right or wrong The date might sound tight and yes it is very close to the EU festivity season w
29 Ikramerica : The public holiday period does not start on the 16th. That was my point. The extra week of holidays is for AIRBUS employees, and that's where the lac
30 Dougloid : Zero fuel weight (ZFW) is not a variable. That's fixed, and it's the maximum amount the aircraft and its payload can weigh without fuel. The balance,
31 Pygmalion : You are exactly correct and I should have simplified it a lot less... It was late on a Friday and I wanted to get work done and go home. Good explana
32 Glideslope : Not a chance.
33 C133 : Actually, zero fuel weight IS a variable--MAX zero fuel weight is a limiting fixed number. On any given flight, payload items added to operating weig
34 AirTranTUS : It will definantly be certified in December 2006. It may be December 47th, but it will still be December 2006.
35 Dougloid : Corrected I am....what I meant to say was maximum zero fuel weight. as in the following. Maximum ramp weight 592 tonnes 1,305 lbs. X 1000 Maximum tak
36 OldAeroGuy : No problem. Having lived in the process a few times it really is amazing how well it works given the differing interests of the parties involved. It'
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