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747-8I May Go On Diet First  
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14037 times:

So, a lighter 747-8I to please people and a solution to maintain 467-seat with 8300nm range....

Boeing looks at boosting composites to lighten 747-8I (13NOV06, ATWOnline)

Excerpt:
Emirates President Tim Clark indicated that the airline preferred the 747-8I's 8,300-nm. range over the longer fuselage and extra capacity that other carriers requested........

Those economics (the 467-seater opposed to 450-seater)are believed to have swayed Air New Zealand and Korean Air to opt for the 777-300ER rather than the 747-8I....


69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5150 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13951 times:

Of course, the good news ignored here is that it looks like two more carriers will soon be placing orders for the 777-300ER, which should be fine by Boeing.

User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2212 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13930 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
So, a lighter 747-8I to please people and a solution to maintain 467-seat with 8300nm range

This appears consistent with 'half' of Boeing's recent $1B increase in R&D spending going to the 748 program. I wondered why and how that magnitude of resources would be spent, and this may be the answer  scratchchin 


User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13911 times:

@Wjcandee
"Of course, the good news ignored here is that it looks like two more carriers will soon be placing orders for the 777-300ER, which should be fine by Boeing.
"

I did not ignore that point, but that is just another hurdle to see some customers for the B748I. More and more airlines are ordering the B777-300ER as the B744-replacement.


User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13882 times:

Well sure, Boeing, build the best plane you can.

The 748 compares well against its competitor, the A380. Yes, they are direct competitors. Not equals, but the 748 can handle any mission the A380 can. Nobody is going to say, "if only the tiny 748 were a bit larger..."


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8219 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13702 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
I did not ignore that point, but that is just another hurdle to see some customers for the B748I. More and more airlines are ordering the B777-300ER as the B744-replacement.

As long as it's not the XWB then Boeing is doing OK. What's the difference in price between the B777-300ER today and the launch price of the 748i? Just as important, what is the profit margins of the two planes.

Since the stretch was at the airlines requests (except for EK) and the extra range was what EK wanted the research into adding composites is a good move on Boeing's part. It they hit, or exceed, the 8,300 NM then they are making everyone happy. EK will order and the other airlines will get a plane that is even cheaper to fly than the one they wanted. Everybody wins.

Well, except for Airbus. It will be interesting to see how the Stretched 748i Lite compares with the 380 in the area of flight economics.


User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 13446 times:

Would it be possible to build the B748i "entirely" out of composites, like the B787?
Or is there a limit in in size to the composite technology now?

If possible it should take care of any weight issues and performance I think.


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3385 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13191 times:

Quoting Chiad (Reply 11):
Would it be possible to build the B748i "entirely" out of composites

In a word no, it's very possible to replace small sections of the frame with carbon fibre parts to save waste but the 787 fuse isn't just a 767 tube made out of CF it's a whole new design. So a fully carbon fuse for the 748 would mean essentially a new plane.

I'm not sure they should go chasing pax sales for this plane when it's selling just great as a frieghter.


User currently offlineJustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1045 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13193 times:

I would think Boeing has some 748I customers in the bag to justify the additional expense.

If they don't, then just stay with the 748F as is, and spend the R&D on lightening the 773ER and make it even better.


User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13148 times:

So basically Boeing is only concentrating on EK and forgetting about the rest of the airlines like LH?
or are they building 2 variants like the B748I (a) and the B748I (b)

one longer and shorther range or one shorter with longer range?


User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13059 times:

Justloveplanes
"If they don't, then just stay with the 748F as is, and spend the R&D on lightening the 773ER and make it even better"

-Exactly !!!!

 Smile


User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12997 times:

Johnny,

several points:

(1) the 748I is still not fully defined. Changes can be made until the cinfiguration is firmed some time next year.

(2) no matter what EK wants, there will only be one fuselage length of the 748I

For EK to get the required range, the plane has to be lightened. How much lightening is required to get the 300nm range is not clear to me.
Boeing and the airlines may be of the opinion the 467 seat version of the 748I with 8,300nm range may be the best compromise.
Let's wait and see, but I'm very confident the 748I will see some good sales in the coming months.


User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12755 times:

They want to increase the range from 8000nm to 8300nm by reducing the weight. That's a 3.75% increase. For this, you need an estimated 5 tons OEW reduction, or about 2%. Not easy, but doable.

SailorOrion


User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12517 times:

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 21):
For this, you need an estimated 5 tons OEW reduction, or about 2%. Not easy, but doable.

Thats interesting !! Maybe some of the sollutions from the 787 can be used on the 747-8 aswell as it is Basically taking the non-composite parts and making them lighter through use of lighter materials (such as titanium ) etc.

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 16):
If they don't, then just stay with the 748F as is, and spend the R&D on lightening the 773ER and make it even better

Why cant the do both ? replacing weight of some " noncritical structures " shouldnt be all that expensive as to leave boeing cash strapped so that they cant invest into a very profitable family of aircraft such as the T7. The T7 future roadmap is probably still under consideration (the 350-900,1000 are still 7-9 years into the future) and most likely involves weight savings aswell as cost savings through a moving line , shorter production cycle , higher rate of production and greater discounts !! What will be interesting is to observe the type of changes boeing brings about to the 747-8I interms of weight savings ! The 600 million dollars (over 2 years) that boeing is spending will easily pay off if the 747-8I alone can meet emirate's requirments ( and close to half of that has gone into the 787 program) .

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 20):
the 748I is still not fully defined. Changes can be made until the cinfiguration is firmed some time next year.

True ! The design is not firmed up and fully defined , Boeing made changes to the 787 aswell before the design was frozen so this isnt really out of line .

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 20):
no matter what EK wants, there will only be one fuselage length of the 748I

But emirate's main concern wasnt with PAX no. but with the fact that they wanted 8300 nm with a representative load which without the weight savings could only be met if boeing proposed the previous design .


User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12450 times:

@Revelation
"You see, Johnny, you are missing the point. The 747-8i is a decoy, created merely to demonstrate how good an airplane the 777-300ER is! As soon as one customer begins to like the 747-8i, Boeing changes the configuration so the 777-300ER is more attractive!"


I think you are missing the point here!

MY point is that more and more airlines (also potential B748I-customers) are finding the B777-300ER more attractive than the B748I.


User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12399 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 24):
MY point is that more and more airlines (also potential B748I-customers) are finding the B777-300ER more attractive than the B748I.

Although I agree with you but I think that There will be enough takers for the 747-8I to eventually make boeing decent money given the Development costs over and above those for the F version .


User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 12324 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 24):
I think you are missing the point here!

MY point is that more and more airlines (also potential B748I-customers) are finding the B777-300ER more attractive than the B748I.

Doesn't look like airlines are finding the A380 attractive either ! Which backs up Boeing's predictions , not Airbus's . The Airline Industry are opting for smaller , more flexible a/c ! Not VLAs' !


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 12079 times:

I´m sure when the 748I is out flying finally it´ll put the 773ER in the shade (where it belongs). Boeings credibility is at stake and they won´t risk it, especially not on their long-time flagship.

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5744 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11961 times:

Look if Boeing can lighten the 748I and give airlines 8,300 mile range with 479 passengers (using the crown area for the galley space) the nthe airlines win and Boeing wins. They are still developing the product and trying to meet customer demands.

I see nothing wrong with that and it will orders from customers who are looking for both capacity and range.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11973 times:

If Boeing can pull off a weight reduction on this scale, it would completely undermine the operating economics of the WhaleJet. Just speculating, I wonder if this might be a bluff by Boeing to keep anyone from ordering more WhaleJets for the next few years. I have some doubt that Boeing are willing to invest the resources needed for such a massive weight reduction.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 10):
Singapore,ANA,JAL,Air France, Cathay and possibly Korean, Air New Zealand, BA and LH all come in my mind.

Did you read the article? Geoff Thomas says that KE and NZ will order B777-300ERs rather than B747-8I SuperJumbos. JL and (especially) NH don't need an aircraft that large, so probably would never have ordered the SuperJumbo anyway -- though, if this plan comes to fruition, it might become attractive to JL due to the dramticallly superior CASM. SQ are not a plausible SuperJumbo customer because their new seats fit much better in the A350/B787/B777 and in the WhaleJet.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 11):
Would it be possible to build the B748i "entirely" out of composites, like the B787?

It would be possible to build an airliner this size of CFRP (just like the B787 but larger) though it would present engineering challenges (e.g. the largest autoclaves in the world). However, it would not be a B747. Boeing call this concept Y3.

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 18):
So basically Boeing is only concentrating on EK and forgetting about the rest of the airlines like LH?
or are they building 2 variants like the B748I (a) and the B748I (b)

one longer and shorther range or one shorter with longer range?

Did you read this article? It says that Boeing are rejecting the idea of two lengths for the B747-8I SuperJumbo.


User currently offlineMptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11726 times:

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 5):
Well sure, Boeing, build the best plane you can.

I think it is a great strategy to get the weight down, and get the range up another 300nm to satisfy EK all the while keeping the same fuselage length common with F model. This is a good compromise which will be win-win, if they can win the order from EK!

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 18):
So basically Boeing is only concentrating on EK and forgetting about the rest of the airlines like LH?
or are they building 2 variants like the B748I (a) and the B748I (b)

I do have a feeling they have some orders in the bag contingent on getting the numbers straight. Remember Boeing is not Airbus and if they say they can build and deliver the numbers promised, they will, and on time. Atleast we hope.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30865 posts, RR: 86
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11490 times:
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One advantage of lightening the structure is it improves the 748F's advantage over the A388F and 744BCF even more, which should help keep those orders coming.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 10):
Indeed i made my statement due to some mistakes done by Airbus with the A350 AND by Boeing with the B747-500x/-600x or B767-400ERx.

I'm not sure what mistakes Boeing did with the 745, 746 and 764 programs. The 745 and 746 were done in by the "Asian Financial Flu" which hammered the earnings of the Asian carriers who could not afford a $250 million plane.

And the 764 was designed to perform missions more efficiently then a 777-100A could. Yes, it had it's hat handed to it by the A332, but there was not much Boeing could do about that. Just as there was not much Airbus could do about the A342 getting it's hat handed to it by the 772ER. Both models were just outclassed by their competition.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
Good for the 773ER program, not so good for the 747-8 and possible Y3 program.

The longer Boeing can keep the 773 program going, the better for them, as Y3 is going to be a large drain on resources. So it is to Boeing's benefit to be able to push Y3 back as long as possible. Frankly, it's much the same for the 747-8I, as well, since Boeing probably needs to discount heavier on that model to match the A388's discounts more then they need to discount the 773ER to match the A346. And the 747-8F isn't under any pricing pressure at the moment, so Boeing is just cashing checks on that program.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 24):
MY point is that more and more airlines (also potential B748I-customers) are finding the B777-300ER more attractive than the B748I.

Which makes sense. Just as more and more airlines are finding it more attractive then the A388 and will especially find it so (for both the 748 and the A388) when the A35010 enters service.


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 11000 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 1):
Oh Boeing...

Another change to the B748I to find some customers.

It's called listening to potential customers.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 1):
Boeing ,pls go back to the drawing board and develop something really new! Delay your EIS by another 2 years, invest some more money and come back with a really advanced composite airplane!

You got the extra billions to pass on to them so they can do this in a care free manner which you think they seemed to have on this? Nevermind the extra costs that would have to be passed on to the airlines. You really should think about what you are saying before saying it.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 11):
Would it be possible to build the B748i "entirely" out of composites, like the B787?

Of course it's possible, but the R&D costs would explode making the aircraft even more expensive.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
It says that Boeing are rejecting the idea of two lengths for the B747-8I SuperJumbo.

From what I hear, Boeing hasn't flat out rejected the idea, they just aren't too "keen" on it.


User currently offlineCharger From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 273 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10959 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 24):
MY point is that more and more airlines (also potential B748I-customers) are finding the B777-300ER more attractive than the B748I.

But as stated in several other posts airlines are finding the 777-300ER more attractive than the A388 also.

I have a dumb question. When Boeing "lightens" the 748I can they also use the weight saving parts on the F model, thus making it also a better plane?
If so, it seems like it would definetly be worth it.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10794 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 24):
MY point is that more and more airlines (also potential B748I-customers) are finding the B777-300ER more attractive than the B748I.

As they should. The economics of the twin jet are much better than the quad.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
25 Alitalia744 : Johnny, your constant anti-Boeing comments are getting boring. Surely you can come up with better arguments. Interesting about the latest AF/KL rumor
26 CM767 : We have got used to the idea of different lengths of the same model, but Boeing is doing the right thing here, remember that the market for it is quit
27 Johnny : @ Charger "But as stated in several other posts airlines are finding the 777-300ER more attractive than the A388 also" Yes, for sure the B777-300ER se
28 FlyLKU : Johnny: Could well be: "Oh Airbus, another change to the A350 to find customers." Let's face it, this is what ALL airframers do.
29 Johnny : @FlyLKU You are right.The A350-program really comes in my mind every single time when i read some news about another improvement or adjustment to the
30 Post contains images Stitch : Because Boeing doesn't feel that the VLA passenger market is large enough to justify spending $15 billion on a brand-new plane. Instead, they spent t
31 Post contains images Boeing Nut : Probably because Boeing knows, along with everyone else, that this will be the last variant of the 747 line. If they spent to much time and money on
32 LMP737 : The market for that sized aircraft is to small to have two new build designs. Boeing would end up spending billions on a plane that they might never
33 Post contains links BoomBoom : There is an article in Aviation Week that speaks to this issue: http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/new...t_story.jsp?id=news/aw111306p2.xml
34 Bringiton : It isnt really about short term sollution or long term sollution . The 747-8I is a option that boeing has for its existing 747-400 customers who migh
35 Post contains images Glideslope : Agreed. Could be something very big around the corner.
36 YULWinterSkies : Aren't airliners designed to satisfy the greatest possible number of customers? If one develops a "random" design and size and tries to sell it after
37 Adria : So now I'm confused. Not long ago you bashed me when I divided the 748pax and the 748F...you said it doesn't matter to Boeing which version is sellin
38 Lemurs : Where did you get that $6 billion number from? I've never seen a number stated, but that one sounds outrageously large...almost like you made it up t
39 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : Three engines would be ideal The structure of the plane gets more complicated with 3 engines though, but I hope we don't see engines as thick as the
40 Stitch : Yes, I am on record as saying I believe the $4 billion figure tossed around for the 747-8's development, but only if that figure includes the develop
41 Iwok : Well, I hope they don't futz around too much with the 748 and waste too much money and time on it. There are other fish to fry, noteably Y3 and the 7
42 Adria : it's rumours from a.net and it was discussed a while ago. The development costs for the 787 are much higher. It's interesting that we don't have the
43 Stitch : Probably a thorough scouring of Boeing's financial statements will return the information. I imagine Boeing didn't launch it if they didn't have pret
44 RIX : - it's selling good without quotes. - doesn't look so. Neither hundreds of A380s are sold, nor would I expect hundreds of 748I sold - rather dozens,
45 Adria : The same goes for Airbus and the A380, so this argument makes no sense... Well new freighters are expensive, that's why we see A310/300, B767/757 and
46 Adria : Well no pax version has been sold so... Boeing never really believed that there is no VLA market. They have been throwing out new offers since the A3
47 Post contains images Bringiton : the 747-8 allready has 40+ orders and counting , for the modest developmental cost (3-5 billion at most) they dont need huge sales to break even spea
48 Bringiton : because they are trying to cash in on whatever is left of the VLA market particularly in the Freighter sector . Remember that boeing's view was that
49 Adria : yes and a lot of that will be conversions so... Well the A330/A340 family still outsells the 777 so Airbus also has done a great job here and the dec
50 Post contains images Adria : I meant opportunity costs... Well they sure have been able to keep some customers for the pax 748...or keep away Well the 777 also has a about a 20%
51 Dank : But these aren't the numbers we really need to do. The question of whether the investment was worth it isn't entirely dependant on how much you make
52 Bringiton : Conversions will occur however there will still be enough new orders to keep the program at a healthy state given that the A380F isnt looking all tha
53 Post contains images Stitch : First off, my argument didn't comment on the A380, so why bring it up? Second, why doesn't it make sense? It seems that by saying that you are arguin
54 Post contains images Bringiton : Thats the classical definition of IRR !! Thats a big speculation !! Although I can rest assured that boeing would know a lot more (about companies go
55 Post contains images RIX : - you said, The 748F is sold "good"... - they never said it either. They said, there is no enough room for 2 all-new designs. Which is more than abso
56 Post contains images Stitch : The 744BCF has 37 orders for 2006 vs. 44 orders for the 748F, plus a few score 744Fs waiting to be delivered. So the trend so far is roughly 50:50. Y
57 Dank : I don't doubt investments in the 748F, but you wonder what they could do with the money for the -i. Would they gain more by investing in lightening t
58 LMP737 : Well of course, the A330/340 has been around longer. What Boeing was right about was not coming out with a new build double decker to compete directl
59 Adria : hehe, many of a.netters here believed the 787 is going to have a shark tail fine and so on...so this is only one of the many reasons why not to belie
60 Dakota123 : How are they losing time and money with the 748? It is a relatively tangential project for Boeing, and sure doesn't seem to be diverting resources fr
61 Bringiton : If EK gets 8300nm performance with the added economies of a 465PAX then they will for it IMO !! Only about 16-17% bigger interms of PAX ( Even bigger
62 Glacote : Both OEM knew that the market did not justify competing aircrafts. They even started by developing a commong successor to the B747 (or at least B pre
63 Ken777 : The assumption that Boeing will not sell a single 748i to the airlines is a rather bold one - it's like assuming that Airbus will give up on the 380
64 Post contains images RIX : - you don't have to separate them, you should make it clear what you are talking about. Yes, 747 outsold 380 - again, without quotes. No, passenger 7
65 Adria : No it was a desperate attempt (once again!) to bash the A380 and some a.netters are going on a lower level with every post they write...So if I use t
66 Dank : I never said that I assumed they wouldn't sell any. What I did do was say why I believe that it is wrong to say that it doesn't matter whether Boeing
67 Post contains images RIX : - it might be, but it has nothing to do with our discussion. - beware, you may be accused in a desperate attempt to bash 777 (once again!) . - it's n
68 PVG : WHY?
69 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Just a nitpick, but Airbus was not directly involved in the Very Large Commercial Transport project. Only the most important members of the consortiu
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