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KLM Announces Major Expanding/improvement  
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15086 times:

According to serveral dutch news papers/sites KLM will invest billions of euro's in overhauling the whole fleet, improving meals/lounges/cabin and it will order additional aircraft:

Order will be:

5 A330's
6 777's
7 737's

Further more they are looking at a 747 replacement which will suprisingly be 787 or 747-8I , according to KLM

Also the whole fleet will get a make-over:

Fokker fleet: new seats , carpet, luggage buckets, and air conditioning
737's: 800/900 will get newer seats, while the classics will receive the current 800/900 seats
MD-11: new WBC , which will be the same as 777/A330, and while previously they didn't want to put in PTV's, they now decided that also the economy class will get PTV's in a 3-3-3 configuration instead of the current 2-4-3
747: new WBC seats, and new flat screens in economy, but no PTV's

77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15056 times:

I wonder is this will be a new A330 order as IIRC they ordered some in the summer.

User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15005 times:

Quote:
I wonder is this will be a new A330 order as IIRC they ordered some in the summer.

New order, they already have 5, 3/4 more to go, so definitly a new one.


User currently offlineACVitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14957 times:

They need to improve food service the WBC flight last night shows how low it has gone. They even cut deserts and cheese trays on the overnight flight...

The FA was very appologetic but it is a sign of how low things have gone especially with WBC.

The old video tape system on the MD11 showed age with only 5 channels of the 12 viewable and one was airshow.


User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14969 times:

"5 A330's"
- Makes sense!


"6 777's"
-Makes sense!


"7 737's"
-Makes no sense!


Further more they are looking at a 747 replacement which will suprisingly be 787 or 747-8I , according to KLM

- I think all this decisions will happen in Paris and not in Amsterdam...So more B777-300ER are more likely as well like the first A32x instead of new B737NGs!


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14948 times:

Interesting news, any potential list of new destinations?

Tks,


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4516 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14949 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
MD-11: new WBC , which will be the same as 777/A330, and while previously they didn't want to put in PTV's, they now decided that also the economy class will get PTV's in a 3-3-3 configuration instead of the current 2-4-3
747: new WBC seats, and new flat screens in economy, but no PTV's

The first MD11 and B744 frames with the new WBC are already operational now, and it seems as if the entire MD11 fleet will get the new cabins by the onset of the summer schedule. I guess that the PTV installation in Y will be completed in a seperate phase.

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
I wonder is this will be a new A330 order as IIRC they ordered some in the summer.

Three more A332s will join the fleet during the current winter season, the first of which is due to arrive next month, and together with one extra B772ER, these aircraft will replace the remaining B763ERs in the fleet. I don't think that KLM has any outstanding A332 orders after these three, although I could be wrong. There are, however, a number of B773ERs in the pipeline, which were ordered last year. None of these frames are destined as a B744/74E replacement though.


User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14952 times:

Surely the 773ER/748I will be the 744 replacement and KL are committed already to the 773ER. 787 could never be construed as a 748I replacement. Sure, KL, like most major carriers will get 787/350, but they won't replace 744s with them.

User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14896 times:

Quote:
Surely the 773ER/748I will be the 744 replacement and KL are committed already to the 773ER. 787 could never be construed as a 748I replacement.

Well normally the 787 won't be a 747 replacement, true, but note that KLM only has a couple of full-pax 747's, and the others are all combi's. With combi's not being allowed to be built annymore, KLM needs to replace with 2 different types: 400+ pax , and 300- pax. So in this case a combination of 747-8I and 787 seems te be perfect, maybe even 787-10?

In the long run it can even replace the MD-11/A330/777... (with the MD-11 replacement starting 2012)


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14856 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
Order will be:

5 A330's
6 777's
7 737's

Great news about the a330's and 777's!! Are those 772's or also 77W's?
Also as I understand it, the 77W's will have 3-4-3 seating in economy, giving a total seating of about 420 pax!!!

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
Further more they are looking at a 747 replacement which will surprisingly be 787 or 747-8I , according to KLM

This is very odd. Those two are quite different in capacity!!! Or do you mean the 787 to replace the combi's and the 748I to replace the all-pax versions? I would think they would pick the 748, giving commonality with possible future 748F's, which they will no doubt need after the combi's are retired.

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
747: new WBC seats, and new flat screens in economy, but no PTV's

Will economy also receive the new seats (without PTV's  Sad )? To be honest, I find the old seats more comfortable.

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
MD-11: new WBC , which will be the same as 777/A330, and while previously they didn't want to put in PTV's, they now decided that also the economy class will get PTV's in a 3-3-3 configuration instead of the current 2-4-3

Great news about the PTV's on the MD11. A birdy told me that the 744's will not receive the PTV's due to weight restrictions, I didn't realize KLM's 744's were flying that close to MTOW.

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
Fokker fleet: new seats , carpet, luggage buckets, and air conditioning

SO I guess the Fokkers are here to stay a while. I guess that's no surprise, given that Van Wijk said he was not that impressed with the current generation of small jets (E-jets and CRJ's) They don't improve enough on the Fokkers to replace them.

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
737's: 800/900 will get newer seats, while the classics will receive the current 800/900 seats

So that means some classics are staying? I'm guessing mostly -400's?

Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
7 737's"
-Makes no sense!

Yes it does, some classics are over 20 years old and need replacing. This order was a long time coming. Last year Van Wijk already said they were planning to replace the classics with -800's and 900's. I wonder if that's still the plan, or will we be seeing some -700's?



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14834 times:

Sounds like quite a bit of investment in some pretty old aircraft (Fokkers, MD11, Boeing 737CL).

User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4516 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14837 times:

There seems to be a press release just out on the wires right now that announces a 6-frame B737 order worth USD 423 million replacing 6 older B737s in the KLM fleet.

User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14793 times:

Quote:
Sounds like quite a bit of investment in some pretty old aircraft (Fokkers, MD11, Boeing 737CL).

well there is a fokker programm for a mid-life update, lots of improvements in the cockpit, performance etc. Making it cheaper, maintenance friendly, and give them more cycles than they were designed for.



About the MD-11, they will not leave before 2012, and KLM is happy with them, as it fits theire needs in South-Amerika, Afrika and middle east, they found 6 years long enough to overhaul them, to compete with other airlines such as ArkeFly, Martinair etc, which fly's on the routes the MD-11 fly's.

[Edited 2006-11-13 12:19:31]

User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14761 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 11):
There seems to be a press release just out on the wires right now that announces a 6-frame B737 order worth USD 423 million replacing 6 older B737s in the KLM fleet.

Indeed, the order was a UFO on Boeing's order page, it will be 6 738'a with blended winglets.

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=17009



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4516 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14703 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 12):
About the MD-11, they will not leave before 2012, and KLM is happy with them, as it fits theire needs in South-Amerika, Afrika and middle east, they found 6 years long enough to overhaul them, to compete with other airlines such as ArkeFly, Martinair etc, which fly's on the routes the MD-11 fly's.

The reconfigured MD11s will serve a very specific purpose in the KLM longhaul fleet: with their very low amount of premium seats (just 24 WBC seats) they will serve holiday markets (Caribbean, East Africa) as well as markets with a traditionally lower demand for premium seats. Typical MD11 markets will include CUR, AUA, SXM, BON, UIO, GYE, DAR, JRO, and YVR.

I think that to say that KLM is very happy with its MD11 fleet is stretching things a bit far. The MD11s have been somewhat of a pain in terms of dispatch reliability as they had/have their share of technical issues. I guess that KLM has figured out that the MD11s are at this point the most cost effective option available to serve the lower yielding markets in the airline's longhaul network.


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 41
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14593 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 9):
SO I guess the Fokkers are here to stay a while. I guess that's no surprise, given that Van Wijk said he was not that impressed with the current generation of small jets (E-jets and CRJ's) They don't improve enough on the Fokkers to replace them.

As I posted earlier some time ago a new contract was signed with Fokker Services which runs till 2017.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 12):
well there is a fokker programm for a mid-life update, lots of improvements in the cockpit, performance etc. Making it cheaper, maintenance friendly, and give them more cycles than they were designed for.

There is no "midlife" update program but more a commonality program because KL scraped frames from all over the globe which are due to different customer demands not identical.
Also there is no need to increase cycle life, they are certified for 110.000 cycles which is more then enough for another 15 to 20 years.

A avionics update is needed from 2010 onwards due to new regulations.

Further their isn't much new here, replacing seats and carpets is done every 5 years or so.



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineMauriceb From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14492 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 15):
Further their isn't much new here, replacing seats and carpets is done every 5 years or so.

¿ no airline invests Billions of euro's each 5 years....¿

it isn't just new carpet or new seats on just one type, the whole fleet is being overhauled... New meals (finally) etc etc

And the new plane order is much new... + the fact they are looking at an 747 replacement, which is earlier then lots of us had expected.

And about the fokker update, without the special maintenance they wouldn't be able to fly much more longer with them ( regulations etc)


Don't know about you, but i find this much new news... And since its all over the newspapers, and it was announced in a press release, i guess youre the only one who thinks that way.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4516 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14445 times:

Quoting Mauriceb (Reply 16):
New meals (finally)

I wouldn't hold my breath for that one. According to the press release, they are spending in the region of 5 million Euro on inflight meals with the purpose of bringing the Cityhopper meals in line with what is served on KLM mainline. No new meals on longhaul flights, as I understand, although a revamp of the longhaul catering would be more than welcome.

Here is the entire press release in Dutch:

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=17006

Not billions of Euro's but an investment of about 100 million. Maybe a very big deal for KLM but really peanuts compared to the kind of innovative products other airlines are rolling out.


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14399 times:

Quote:
Not billions of Euro's but an investment of about 100 million. Maybe a very big deal for KLM but really peanuts compared to the kind of innovative products other airlines are rolling out.

Yeah, but that was the first press-release, after that several other dutch news-papers also posted the news, and they are talking about ''billions'' of Euro's, and they also mention the 777 and A330 orders+ lounge revamp and other things etc etc  Smile


User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14311 times:

I've never flown Longhaul with KLM - do they not have PTV's on ANY 744's??
 gasp 


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12594 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14312 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 8):
Well normally the 787 won't be a 747 replacement, true, but note that KLM only has a couple of full-pax 747's, and the others are all combi's. With combi's not being allowed to be built annymore, KLM needs to replace with 2 different types: 400+ pax , and 300- pax. So in this case a combination of 747-8I and 787 seems te be perfect, maybe even 787-10?

Just wondering whether the 777F would be considered for all cargo operations, to supplement the 744F fleet?


User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14268 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 9):
Last year Van Wijk already said they were planning to replace the classics with -800's and 900's

and they'll all get winglets installed, new -800 will be delivered with winglets in place, PH-BXV will be the first to sport them  Cool



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineCY319 From Cyprus, joined Apr 2006, 396 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14269 times:

I d really like to them to bring back the fine meal service on their European Flights. Even their C class meals on European flights are crap nowadays, limited portions, cheaply presented....
At least, they can do something with their European Flights exceeding 2.5.hours. A hot meal,even in Y class, is a must!!!
And for heaven's sake, to leave middle seat ALWAYS empty on C class!!!!



wanna be travel buddies ,sex buddies .. or both ?
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14249 times:

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 19):
I've never flown Longhaul with KLM - do they not have PTV's on ANY 744's??

Not in economy, no. Currently only the 777's and a330's and in the near future the MD11's will feature PTV's with AVOD in economy.
On a side note, KLM is not the only airline that has no PTV's on (some) long-haul aircraft, IB and LH also do not and IIRC UA does not have those on their 744's and DL does not have them at all, as well as AA (or am I wrong?) There are plenty of other airlines that only have the aisle mounted CRT's.

But I'm glad that the MD11's at least are receiving the PTV's as do all their new long haul aircraft.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4516 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14159 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 23):
But I'm glad that the MD11's at least are receiving the PTV's as do all their new long haul aircraft.

Well, again, I wouldn't hold my breath for the PTVs in Y on the MD11 in the short term. The MD11s are getting the new WBC seats and corresponding entertainment system during this winter season, but the PTVs in Y are likely to be installed during upcoming heavy maintenance checks, and this bound to take a year or two.

Quoting CY319 (Reply 22):
And for heaven's sake, to leave middle seat ALWAYS empty on C class!!!!

KLM will probably respond to your remark that they are not really operating a Business Class product on the European network, but rather a business oriented product called Europe Select that is designed to offer higher end travelers with optimal flexibility. They prices KLM is charging for this non-business class product are, however, identical to business class fares.


25 MauriceB : Guy's another media report, thought it was worth a new topic, its about the fokkers.
26 Hardiwv : Agree with the above statement. You forgot to place the link. I still think it is suicide to keep the Fokker in KL fleet after 2010.... Rgs,
27 Post contains links MauriceB : Totally agree with you, seems the right time to replace them. Link: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70 (by MauriceB Nov 13 2006 in Civil Aviation) Note: thi
28 Mptpa : Why would not they move the cargo to AF Cargo with all their lift? I would have thought if would be better harmonized fleet by using A32X series whic
29 Kappel : KL and AF are still kept as separate entities as far as fleet planning is concerned. And KL has always been a big user of the 737 (and boeing aircraf
30 Alitalia744 : perhaps a 787 interest/order for KLM will ultimately turn into Air France going for Boeing's plastic jet...
31 Post contains images N1786b : Well, Paris decided on 6 737NGs According to AFX, Spinetta just told a group of reporters that AF and KLM will issue a joint RFP for new long-range w
32 Hardiwv : Indeed, I also read the article on todays newspaper. Rgs,
33 MEACEDAR : Yes they do. They are equipped on the 777 and the 763, as well as the 764.
34 AA777 : AA has them on their 777s- every class, and I believe (not 100% sure) they have upgraded many 767s to having IFE in economy class as well. -AA777
35 Alitalia744 : For clarity: 777: All classes have PTVs 764 International: All classes will have PTVs 763: BizE has PTVs. Economy still does not.
36 MEACEDAR : On some aircrafts they do. I flew MCO-ATL and ATL-MCO on DL 763 and Economy did have PTVs.
37 DLKAPA : So where's all these new airplanes gonna be flying?
38 MEACEDAR : I hope they resume flying to airports that they dropped like BEY. I think they should also start flying to MCO instead of MP. They should also use on
39 Lamedianaranja : It was in today Telegraaf newspaper which does make it suspect but I have to say that Arnold Burlage does seem to get his facts right usually. He's p
40 N328KF : This may be true on the surface, but I would put money on the fact that the 777-300ER decision was made a ton easier by the fact that AF operated the
41 Post contains links Mymorningsong : Just announced.... http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061113/sfm101.html?.v=61 - KLM Exercises Model Substitution Rights on 777s SEATTLE, Nov. 13 /PRNewswire
42 Jfk777 : Great for KLM, A330's and 777 are two great airplanes. I hope KLM does find a bigger plane to replace the 744.
43 Kaitak : I think that's doubtful; the 773 is about as big as KLM will be going; it has ruled out the A380 and I believe (without being 100% sure) that the 747
44 Boysteve : Do KLM have a 764 Domestic? On a more serious note I think that it is a bad idea not to have some kind of commonailty across the fleet when it comes
45 Kappel : I know about the 777's, should've been clearer on that. Didn't know about the 764's though. Thanks for clarifying. He was talking about DL.
46 MEACEDAR : No KLM does not. KLM does fly the 763 though. I think that Boysteve was talking about Delta and not KLM.
47 Jycarlisle : I'm all game for A320s and more T73s! Cheers, Jeremy
48 Post contains images Haggis79 : must have been a non-ER then.... any DL-maniac who can enlighten us on this?
49 Post contains images F4N : Talk about wild-eyed optimism rooted in wishful thinking. It seems as though Paris thought better and ordered more 737NG's. Hope you're not holding y
50 DC10extender : Thank God they aren't planning on getting rid of their MD-11's. Still hoping to see some at MSP if KLM ever continues service here again.
51 Haggis79 : troll...
52 MauriceB : Guess it wouldn't suprise you guy's, but here is the 8th announcement. Jacobsen, CEO KLM cittyhopper, announced that the F50's will be replaced by eit
53 Post contains images A388 : I don't see the 787 as an aircraft type in KL's fleet, at least not for the coming years. The 773ER will make much more sense especially as a 744 repl
54 EBJ1248650 : Why are combi's not allowed to be built any more? That's news to me.
55 DeltaJet757 : That's nice to hear that KLM will be doing updates on their planes. By the way, what's WBC? -DeltaJet757
56 Post contains images A388 : WBC = World Business Class. A388
57 Post contains images A388 : Sukhoi??????? Do you really see AF/KL ordering Russian built regional jets? A388
58 N328KF : The Sukhoi Superjet has substantial Western content, especially in the powerplant (which is 50% French.) Boeing and Alenia are major partners.
59 HB-IWC : Please note that only 6 B738s have been announced so far as well as a conversion of 3 existing T7 orders to B773ER. I have yet to hear anything offic
60 AMSSFO : Would you be so kind to support your statements with a source including a link? I can't find anything on a recent A330 order
61 ReverseThrust : Do What? KLM have never owned any narrow body Airbus A32x generation aircraft. They have a large fleet of classic and NG 737's, although some of the
62 Post contains images Johnny : The new 737NG are a stop-gap measure as all longterm fleet-planning will be done for both AF and KLM. So the replacement for the B737 and the A320 cou
63 MEA-707 : The USA and other countries aviation authorities are reluctant to certificate new combi types any more as they consider the risk of on board fires si
64 N328KF : The same can be said for any carrier currently ordering narrowbodies in this category. Your comment is superfluous.
65 Post contains links Lamedianaranja : It's all news from www.telegraaf.nl and www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl What's that?
66 Hardiwv : The decision makes sense and is long overdue. This was long expected and again makes all the sense. I think Embraer has the contract ready for signat
67 LarSPL : there is, i say again and again, no benefit in buying only one type of european fleet aircraft. the scale of air france and klm's european ops is so
68 Kappel : The 70 seat Bombardier Dash8-Q400 turboprop. Perhaps the Q400's greater speed gives it a slight advantage here then, because it will also replace the
69 Post contains links and images LarSPL : who is Jacobsen?? isnt he the CEO of REKKOF? at cityhopper the ceo is Coumans please read again http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=17022 and dont
70 Post contains images A388 : Well said A388
71 Post contains images Mauriceb : sorry i mixed them up indeed! Lol , running an airline isn't only about buying planes and deplow them the MD-11/737/F100 cabin renewall was also bit
72 Post contains images Fokker70NG : According to the Cityhopper CEO, both F70/F100 will stay in the fleet for another 7 years. Makes more sense because I doubt they would be able to get
73 UpperDeck79 : It's -8i, not -800i...
74 HB-IWC : You are so right about this. I don't know what all this hype is about, because there is actually very little real news in the story: * 3 remaining B7
75 Hardiwv : Agree 100% with your point of view. I also consider the catering changes an actual downgrade. Cityhopper consistently have better onboard catering th
76 Post contains images KaiGywer : Why would they replace a 50 seat plane with a 70 seater? Do the F50s go out full that often? What would be nice to see would be Q300 to replace the F
77 Post contains links AMSSFO : A link in English: http://www.asiatraveltips.com/news06/1411-KLMUpgradesFleet.shtml it's a direct translation of the article on luchtvaartnieuws "Duri
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