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KLM Also To Replace F50/F70  
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6276 times:

After i posted a topic about all the big changes within KLM mainline, KLM now also announced that they are serieously looking at an F-50/F-70 replacement, while the F-100 will stay and they will even add more of them to the fleet.

KLM currently operates 18 F-50's and 21 F-70's.

They didn't announced which planes are possible candidates, but i guess the ATR and Canadiar are the most likely candidates, as it can provide a F-50 and an F-70 replacement, without having to order 2 different types.


All with all its a big day in the KLM history:

-Ordering Aditional 777's and A330's
-Ordering 7 Aditional 737 to replace older 737's
-Overhauling the MD-11/747 with an entiarly new cabin
-Announcing that they are looking for a 747 replacement, with 787 (for combis) and 747-8I (for pax) being the most likely candidates
-Overhauling lounges, meals etc
-Replacing the F50/F70

[Edited 2006-11-13 14:22:25]

[Edited 2006-11-13 14:42:00]

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6246 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
After i posted a topic about all the big chances within KLM mainline, KLM now also announced that they are serieously looking at an F-50/F-70 replacement

It makes sense for KL to get rid of the old Fokkers. This decision was long expected. I'm glad to see KL progressing on this front.

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
while the F-100 will stay and they will even add more of them to the fleet.

KL will not keep them for long either.

Rgs,


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6189 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
They didn't announced which planes are possible candidates, but i guess the ATR and Canadiar are the most likely candidates, as it can provide a F-50 and an F-70 replacement, without having to order 2 different types.

Embraer recently send an E190 down to Amsterdam.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6197 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
They didn't announced which planes are possible candidates, but i guess the ATR and Canadiar are the most likely candidates, as it can provide a F-50 and an F-70 replacement, without having to order 2 different types.

Actually, IMHO E-170 is more favored, because they can also replace the F100's with the E-190/E-195. IIRC the CRJ900 is smaller than the F100.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6157 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
Actually, IMHO E-170 is more favored, because they can also replace the F100's with the E-190/E-195. IIRC the CRJ900 is smaller than the F100.



Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
Embraer recently send an E190 down to Amsterdam.

I am aware of the above, but tks of the info. KL management is having close contact with Embraer team. KL personal was also seen in Sao Jose dos Campos, Embraer base in Brazil.

Rgs,


User currently offlineMptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6112 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 3):
Actually, IMHO E-170 is more favored, because they can also replace the F100's with the E-190/E-195. IIRC the CRJ900 is smaller than the F100.

May be, just may be, Canadair found a launch customer for their C series!!!


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6112 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
KLM now also announced that they are serieously looking at an F-50/F-70 replacement, while the F-100 will stay and they will even add more of them to the fleet.

Care to post your reference as well ?

The F50 replacement is old news but as far as I know they would like to have more F70's as well as F100's.
Which makes more sense together with the new Fokker Services contract and another announcement made by v.Wijk "I guess that's no surprise, given that Van Wijk said he was not that impressed with the current generation of small jets (E-jets and CRJ's) They don't improve enough on the Fokkers to replace them."(quoted from another thread).



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

Maybe they could replace the F50s with Q300s and the F70s with Q400s or CRJ-700s.

User currently offlineDougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6078 times:

Don't rule out a change to Ejets for the Fokker replacement.

User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6049 times:

I am afraid some are missing the point.
KL just signed(4 weeks ago) a new long term 80-100 million EU contract with Fokker Services which runs till 2017.
http://stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200610/1081207



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 9):
KL just signed(4 weeks ago) a new long term 80-100 million EU contract with Fokker Services which runs till 2017.

I guess this contract does not prevent KL from switching to other equipment, i.e. Ejets. 80-100 million is peanuts in aviation business...this amount was supposed to be spent just as "make-up" for KL F100s which were in dire need anyway...

Now, with KL replacing the F-50 and F-70 as posted above, it is just a pre-announcement that the F-100's days in KL are counted down...

Rgs,


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5987 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 6):
Care to post your reference as well ?

The F50 replacement is old news but as far as I know they would like to have more F70's as well as F100's.

Sure, www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl , announced by Paul Gregorowitsch, executive vice-president commercial.

if you don't believe it, i can ask it personally to him...

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 9):
am afraid some are missing the point.
KL just signed(4 weeks ago) a new long term 80-100 million EU contract with Fokker Services which runs till 2017.

As said, the will add more F-100's, and think they care more about new planes than a maintenance contract.

So here come's my point again, the ERJ-170 can only coffer theire F70 needs, and a smaller plane is still needed for routes to Small airports and short destinations such as LCY, LUX, BRU, HAM etc..

Since the F-100 will stay for a while, i don't see the need of the ERJ-190, despite the demo flight couple of weeks ago.



Another news fact about KLM (yes , about the 10th today), They signed a 3 year contract with Finnair for MD-11 maintenance


User currently offlineFoxy From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 179 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5966 times:

So how many F50's do you reckon we will see go to VLM?

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5945 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
So here come's my point again, the ERJ-170 can only coffer theire F70 needs, and a smaller plane is still needed for routes to Small airports and short destinations such as LCY, LUX, BRU, HAM etc

Note that E-135 jets are certified for short runaway such as LCY. In fact, Luxair has been operating E-135 jets (37-seat) into LCY for some time now.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
Sure, www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl , announced by Paul Gregorowitsch, executive vice-president commercial.

I also read the article. Btw, tks for the private msg!

Rgs,


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3997 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5914 times:

The ERJ135 is way to small for KLM's AMS route, IMHO. As no 50seater jet is certified for LCY, the E170 would make sense if EMBRAER gets the certification sorted out. However, from AMS to LCY jets obviously do not make much sense as KLM could very well use Fokker 70 to have a competitive edge over VLM - but still they stick with the Fokker 50 on the route.

User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5914 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
Note that E-135 jets are certified for short runaway such as LCY. In fact, Luxair has been operating E-135 jets (37-seat) into LCY for some time now.

Sure, i already thought about that, but in that case they would order 2 different types: ERJ-135/140/145 and EMB-170

And for short hops, turboprops could in most cases be faster and more economical, especially when you look which destinations the F-50/F-70's coffer. Longer routes can always be taken over by the F-100. so the Q300 and Q400 can perfectly coffer those needs.


User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 877 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5767 times:

According to Sukhoi, they say KLM is also looking into their superjet project. It would be really interesting to see what happens if the superjet gets off the ground and into the fleets of western airlines. With prices for a superjet much lower than the rivals, KLM may get more bang for their buck.


LH 442
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5743 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
and think they care more about new planes than a maintenance contract.

Not if you payed 100 million EU I guess. Big grin

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
80-100 million is peanuts in aviation business

Maybe your farming business it is but not here in Holland.  Wink

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
i can ask it personally to him...

Yes if you would be so kind please do.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
Note that E-135 jets are certified for short runaway such as LCY.

As is the F50 and F70.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
Quoting Aviopic (Reply 6):
Care to post your reference as well ?

The F50 replacement is old news

They started to replace the F50 about 4-5 years ago but since they could not get any suitable replacement it was halted after a few.

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 14):
the E170 would make sense if EMBRAER gets the certification sorted out.

Jeeh...... do they still have problems  Smile



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineMauriceb From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5725 times:

Quote:
According to Sukhoi, they say KLM is also looking into their superjet project. It would be really interesting to see what happens if the superjet gets off the ground and into the fleets of western airlines

Sure, but that's already a while ago, then the options were rekkof and sukhoi, But still think KLM prefers western aicraft, not that russian planes aren't good, but some western people wouldn't like to fly on them, since russian planes have a reputation in the Western world.

The most likely candidate is Embraer, but i certainly wouldn't rule out Bombardier and ATR as well.


User currently offlineFokker70NG From Netherlands, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5645 times:

Quoting Mauriceb (Reply 18):
Sure, but that's already a while ago, then the options were rekkof and sukhoi, But still think KLM prefers western aicraft, not that russian planes aren't good, but some western people wouldn't like to fly on them, since russian planes have a reputation in the Western world.

I agree, I don't see KLM ordering Russian planes yet, just because of the reputation. However, if I'm not mistaken Boeing is involved in the project too. If there would be a Boeing-branded RRJ for the western market, I could see KL ordering them.

I'm highly surprised about the F70-replacement. I'll believe it when I see it. Don't expect the F100 to leave the fleet very soon, with the 100 million contract KL signed with Fokker Services some weeks ago that runs until 2017, like Aviopic said.

Still these are some interesting developments. Very sad to see the F70 go. I wonder who will pick them up.



Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5619 times:

Quoting Mauriceb (Reply 18):
The most likely candidate is Embraer, but i certainly wouldn't rule out Bombardier and ATR as well.

Agree. As I mentioned, KL team was in Brazil a few weeks ago. I would not rule out KL approaching Bombardier as well. ATR, as you well mentioned, could well be a secondary option.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 19):
Still these are some interesting developments. Very sad to see the F70 go. I wonder who will pick them up.

It was expected. It was just a matter of time.

Rgs,


User currently offlineFokker70NG From Netherlands, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5591 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20):
It was expected. It was just a matter of time.

It was expected by who? Previous press statements didn't imply such an early retiral, nor did the recent events.
And yes, if (and that's a big IF) KL will order E-jets, I expect them to be retired by 2030. Also it's expected that KL will retire their brand new A330's somewhere in the future, maybe in 20 years or so.
I expect lots of things.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20):
Agree. As I mentioned, KL team was in Brazil a few weeks ago. I would not rule out KL approaching Bombardier as well. ATR, as you well mentioned, could well be a secondary option.

Don't totally rule out the RRJ as of yet. As for the turboprops, if I recall correctly KL stated a while ago they want an all-jet fleet eventually. Don't know if they still want that though.



Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5544 times:

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 21):
It was expected by who?

It was discussed here [try to use search engine]...It hit the press today, but rumours and discussions were ongoing.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 21):
Don't totally rule out the RRJ as of yet. As for the turboprops, if I recall correctly KL stated a while ago they want an all-jet fleet eventually. Don't know if they still want that though.

In my opinion, KL will go for an all Jet fleet.

Rgs,


User currently offlineFokker70NG From Netherlands, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5256 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
It was discussed here [try to use search engine]...It hit the press today, but rumours and discussions were ongoing.

Well, after all, it seems that those ongoing discussion weren't totally right, as it's not such an early retiral as suggested. According to this article KLM cityhopper CEO Coumans said in a press conference today that the F70 and F100 will probably stay in the fleet for another 7 years, but they are starting to study the possible replacements. The F50 will be retired in approximately 5 years.

Interesting fact is that the KLM Cityhopper CEO mentions Rekkof. Rekkof is still in the race for an order, but he wants certainty about Rekkof's future within a half year. KLM doesn't want to be launch customer. He also said they're extensively studying the Sukhoi project and Embraer is also a possibility.

Rekkof isn't dead yet.

[Edited 2006-11-13 21:17:17]


Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5194 times:

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 23):
Well, after all, it seems that those ongoing discussion weren't totally right, as it's not such an early retiral as suggested. According to this article KLM cityhopper CEO Coumans said in a press conference today that the F70 and F100 will probably stay in the fleet for another 7 years, but they are starting to study the possible replacements. The F50 will be retired in approximately 5 years.

Haha... I was just typing a reply that the F70's would not go anywhere for the first 7 years at least.
Thanks to you I could start all over again.
Anyway a mixed fleet is not practical and way to expensive, it is just not going to happen.
Guess the "hot potato" spoke before his turn.

I'll keep you updated with news from Iran Joost.



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
25 Post contains links Lijnden : Maybe the Fokkers will be replaced by Rekkofs? I guess the announcement of Rekkof will follow soon? Checking the new Rekkof web page shows a F70 look-
26 Aviopic : Don't look at me, I've always shared my info but I got very tired of the BS I get in return.
27 Post contains links Fokker70NG : " target=_blank>www.rekkof.nl I'm not an insider, but that "new" website is on there for some time now, I think since March. I know they're working on
28 Post contains links AMSSFO : Well that's a relief. I love to see those Fokkers flying for KLM Cityhopper. And they will buy any F100 that is available in the next few years. Obvi
29 BMED : So did a lot of airlines but we have seen the Q400 starting to appear in the states.
30 PPVRA : Well, AF already ordered Ejets, so that's one advantage for EMB. As for the F50 replacement. . . I don't know, maybe they will not want a direct repla
31 Hardiwv : No doubt this means Embraer has an edge of competitors... Rgs,
32 Post contains images Lamedianaranja : He's a nice guy. a few years back we were stuck at GVA airport trying to nonrev back to AMS and we struck up a conversation, waiting for a seat. He w
33 Aleksandar : Well, Canadair and Embraer do naturally come in mind, but what about Rekkof project. Every now and then we hear their plans and nothing else. It is s
34 Jwenting : AF has both Embraers and CRJs, so a pretty level playing field. I don't know which they're happier with, maybe someone can chime in, as that would ce
35 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Rekkof is still an option, however, KLM just added some pressure by saying that Rekkof must come out with their plans within 6 months or they will lo
36 MH017 : Don't know if they visited Embraer there, but do know they were there to inspect the 2 Fokker 100 ex TAM that will join the KLC fleet shortly (PH-OFO
37 Post contains links AMSSFO : two former TAM Fokker 100 will be added soon: PH-OFO - March 2007 (11462) PH-OFP - January 2007 (11472) The fokkers are clearly not gone yet; they wi
38 Post contains images Aviopic : Nope. After the bad experience with the first ex Tam F100 they now seem to have learned and go for an inspection first. Like I said earlier this is d
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