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Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service  
User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9018 times:

Does anyone have details and links to further information of Pan Am's and TWA's intra-European services? I am curious as to how significant these operations were at their height and how extensive the nework was for each carrier.

I know both carriers flew and had either 727s and/or 737s stationed in Europe on a permanent basis. Does anyone know what each airline called their "base" for these operations?

I flew with Pan Am on multiple segments within Europe in the late 80s. Never had the opportunity to fly with TWA, though I sense that their local European operations must have been much smaller in scale in comparison to Pan Am.

Thanks for your insight.

Sincerely,

Scalebuilder

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4895 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8978 times:
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Pan Am had hubs at both LHR and FRA with various intra-European spokes. In addition, they also had an Internal German Service (IGS) operation out of TXL.

The IGS operation out of TXL had nonstops to FRA, MUC, NUE, STR, and HAM with 727s primarily (there were some 737s and A310s during sporadic periods as well). There was also a TXL-ZRH (727/737) as well as ATR42 flights from TXL to Kiel, Dortmund, Westerland/Sylt, BSL, HAJ.

The LHR intra-European flights included 747/727 service to FRA, 727 service to AMS (no local traffic rights), BRU (no local traffic rights), MUC. HAM, FBU (continuing on to HEL). At various times, there was also 727 service between LHR and DUS, CGN, and CPH.

The FRA intra-European flights included mostly 727 service to Eastern Europe (WAW, PRG, BUD, OTP, VIE, Krakow, SVO, LED, ZAG, BEG, DBV), IST/Ankara, ATH, ARN. Also, there was 747 service to India (BOM, DEL) and towards the end, A310 service nonstop to NBO.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5629 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8938 times:

Pan Am had two different internal European services.

The largest was the "Internal German Sevices" which linked major Weat German cities to Berlin. Cities includes Frankfurt, Munich & Hamburg, at least, there were others. These services in the main used B727.

The others were, what we would today, call tags on services from the US. Remember that in those days most flights normally had transit stops, that is intermediate ports of call on the same flight, NOT connections. PA developed the idea of using FRA as a hub to feed flight to smaller european cities in the 1960s, as they already had the aircraft and infastructure in place, because of the Internal German Services. They extended the idea to other ports but I dont have any more details to hand at the moment.

Pan Am also had services to Africa and Asia and their round the world services which passed thru Europe, these also provided inter European services.

I know nothing about TWA services.

The following sites may help you:
http://www.airchive.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimyvrroutemap/


Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineSwissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8927 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 1):
There was also a TXL-ZRH (727/737)

Yes that is the one my dad used all the times.... in the 80's and I never ask him why PA and no one else????

Cheers,


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8929 times:

TWA offered various intra-European flights through the years:

CDG-MXP, ZRH, GVA, MUC, STR (CDG was the closest thing to Euro-hub)
LGW-FRA (tag from BWI)
AMS-BRU (tag from JFK)
TXL-FRA, STR, MUC (when TW was awarded Berlin service)
LIS-BCN (tag from JFK)
CPH-FBU (triangle flight from JFK)
FCO-ATH (tag from JFK)
FRA-SVO, VIE, IST (operated with 727's. FRA-VIE was later co-shared with OS. Did SVO ever start?)


User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8920 times:

Interesting information..

I had the pleasure of flying Pan Am on too many occasions to even mention within Europe. Obviously when preferring this airline for the trans-atlantic crossing, they will also offer you the seamless connecting flights as part of the solution. Being a student at that time, the value for the money was simply incredible.

A TWA 727 was high-jacked and kept in Beirut for several days in the middle 80s. I believe that the flight may have originated in Athens. Any further knowledge of this? Pan Ams narrow-bodies were common sights across Europe in this time period, but I can't seem to recall having seen TWAs narrow-bodies at any airports anywhere in Europe. I traveled extensively during this decade. You seem to be incredibly knowledgable of Pan Am. Do you have any additional knowledge of the TWA operations?

Thanks again for your reply!

Scalebuilder


User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8841 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
Did SVO ever start?)

That is an interesting question. Anybody with further knowledge in the forum?


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7461 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8841 times:

A look through a.net photos added to my own records shows that between 1968 and 1991 PA based a minimum of 66 727s and 15 737s in Europe (but obviously not all at the same time).

Aircraft photographed at airports other than those listed in Panamair's informative post - see Reply 1 - include CDG (1) and a little surprisingly several European holiday destinations. Amongst these are FAO (7 727s photographed), PMI (4), MLA (1) and SZG (1). Another shows a 727 (N318PA) at ARN on 19 June 1977 'about to depart for LHR'. There is also a 727 (N357PA) photographed at SNN in August 1971, but I guess this might have been on a ferry flight back to the USA.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8801 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 1):
Pan Am had hubs at both LHR and FRA with various intra-European spokes. In addition, they also had an Internal German Service (IGS) operation out of TXL.

PA's Berlin service used THF (Tempelhof) until sometime in the mid 1970s, probably when the new TXL terminal opened in 1974. I flew PA HAM-THF-HAM on a 727-100 in 1970.

DL maintained many of the former PA international tag sectors beyond FRA using 727-200s for a while after DL purchased most of PA's Europe routes, but they were gradually all eliminated.

UA also based several 727-200s in Europe to operate a number of tag sectors, including several from Paris. Those services were also dropped after a few years. Two UA sectors I clearly recall sometime in the early 1990s were CDG-GVA and CDG-ATH.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8769 times:

Quote:
A TWA 727 was high-jacked and kept in Beirut for several days in the middle 80s. I believe that the flight may have originated in Athens. Any further knowledge of this? Pan Ams narrow-bodies were common sights across Europe in this time period, but I can't seem to recall having seen TWAs narrow-bodies at any airports anywhere in Europe. I traveled extensively during this decade. You seem to be incredibly knowledgable of Pan Am. Do you have any additional knowledge of the TWA operations?

The incident you speak of was TWA flight #847. This particular flight originated in Cairo, stopped at Athens, and was on its way to Rome. After the incident, the 727 sat at Beirut for several weeks/months before a TWA crew was airlifted in and flew the plane out. It returned to the U.S., and ironically operated TWA's last revenue 727 flight!!

In the mid-1980's, TWA's service was routed JFK-FCO-ATH-CAI, with passengers continuing to Athens and/or Cairo switching to a 727 at Rome, and returning, the procedure was vice-versa.

I seem to remember that Tel Aviv had a similar routing for a while, but this was switched to TLV-Paris-JFK, and later to TLV-JFK.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8679 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
Did SVO ever start

IIRC TW had BRU-SVO in 1991 only. I don't recall a FRA-SVO service with TW.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4753 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8622 times:

Pardon my ignorance. This arrangement seems rather impossible nowadays in our present economic climate. How did PA/TW manage that, as foreign airlines, to get the access to European airports? Especially so in PA's case, when they were flying domestically within Germany.


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User currently offlineSnoopy From Switzerland, joined Oct 2001, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8604 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 11):
Pardon my ignorance. This arrangement seems rather impossible nowadays in our present economic climate. How did PA/TW manage that, as foreign airlines, to get the access to European airports? Especially so in PA's case, when they were flying domestically within Germany.

Only US, British and French airlines were allowed into Berlin during the days of the Berlin Wall. That explains the German issue anyway.


User currently offlineBPS3458 From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 564 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8605 times:

I remember flying a PA 737-200 named "Clipper Wilmersdorf" from LHR in to HAM with continuing service continued in to Berlin. Must have been around 1985. Plane looked like it was going to fall apart any minute and the smell inside the cabin prior to take off reminded me of a petrol station.

User currently offlineTbear815 From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 704 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8571 times:

In reference to BigGSFO, I flew PA LIS/BCN 747-100 in the early '70's. Local traffic permitted - last minute decision. Very fast flight - tag from JFK with the crew to prove it. Regardless, it was a good flight as all PA flights used to be good. I didn't know TW flew this route as well.

The only TW flight intra-Europe leg I took was MLG-MAD continuing to JFK. No local traffic MLG-MAD (Drink service only). 747-100 in F/Y configuration. Actually in F with Julio Inglesias across the aisle (MAD-JFK). Crew MLG-MAD were tag crew from JFK - and very good. Boarding crew at MAD were old even then (mid-'70s). Food and coffee boarded MAD were horrible! Not at all what was expected from trans-Atlantic 747 First in those days.

We got where we were going and often that US flag looked awfully good in parts of the World in those days. But then, the airlines really knew how to fly in style...


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9279 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8500 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 11):
Pardon my ignorance. This arrangement seems rather impossible nowadays in our present economic climate. How did PA/TW manage that, as foreign airlines, to get the access to European airports? Especially so in PA's case, when they were flying domestically within Germany

First of all, the US, UK and France had sovereignty over Berlin until 1990. LH was not allowed to fly to West Berlin, the Russians who had de facto sovereignty over their East berlins ector would not have allowed that.

PA and TW had (and on the paper the DL/UA still have) extensive beyond rights from Germany which allowed them to build a FRA hub operation. A similar situation exists in Japan with NW exploiting their beyond rights.

This is all dating back from the aftermaths of WWII.

@ BigGSFO - your listing is good but incomplete, there are many more tag flights but they changed frequentrly over the years, I flew TWA FRA/LHR vv many times in the 70s and that usually was a 707, same a/c that came from JFK.
.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
TWA offered various intra-European flights through the years:



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3999 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8482 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
TWA offered various intra-European flights through the years



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
CPH-FBU (triangle flight from JFK)

The TWA triangle was usually JFK-ARN-CPH-JFK. Started with Tristar in 1987 and was B767-200 that winter and alternated between the two until the last flight on 23 Oct 1992 which was B767 16001.(because I flew to CPH on it). The routing changed now and then. One summer we had non stop ARN-JFK and for a month we had a B727 shuttle to CDG, as the long runway in ARN was closed. Then one year they tried JFK-FBU-ARN-JFK with a separate CPH flight. One day there was a large load out of FBU, and TWA routed the other way. But then realised that an L1011 can't get out of FBU with JFK fuel!
The route was always daily and full in the summer, but poor loads and 5/week in the winter. Sometimes TWA would substitute a L1011-1 and then the dispatcher had fun trying to make JFK non-stop!


User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 720 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8479 times:

"Did SVO ever start?" yes it did but by PanAm not TWA. I worked for PA in FRA in those days and actually worked the first SVO flt at the gate. For some reason the airport authority wouldnt display the flight on the information boards and the Bundesgrenschutz (german border police) checked all pax passports at the gate. After that first flight it became just another flight. It went on to LED after SVO

User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3999 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8471 times:

Just remembered. TWA had B727 based in CDG to operate the routes. I remember that one autumn every body was sent on MD80 training as they were going to change to MD80s. Then at the last minute, just before the winter season started it was all cancelled. The MD80 never crossed the Atlantic.

User currently offlineBilly From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2000, 895 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8404 times:

There used to be a regular 737-200 into HEL operated by PA. Not sure where it flew to but the operation did not last long.

User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8331 times:

I flew on TWA in 1989 from DTW-JFK-AMS-HAM. Flight 814 operated JFK-AMS as L1011 and AMS-HAM-TXL with a 727-100. Flight 815 operated just opposite. TWA had quite a few 727-100's in service in Europe in the late 80's. This was my first flight with TWA, and my only flights with the L1011 and 727-100.


Here we are boarding the 727-100 before departing HAM for AMS.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f254/tolaviator/10-29-2006011339PM.jpg

I have a TWA timetable from 1989 and there are many inter-European routes which I can look up if you're interested.



721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8324 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
First of all, the US, UK and France had sovereignty over Berlin until 1990. LH was not allowed to fly to West Berlin, the Russians who had de facto sovereignty over their East berlins ector would not have allowed that.

PA and TW had (and on the paper the DL/UA still have) extensive beyond rights from Germany which allowed them to build a FRA hub operation. A similar situation exists in Japan with NW exploiting their beyond rights.

This is all dating back from the aftermaths of WWII.

British Airlines also did the same during the Cold War. British Airways and Dan Air both had fairly substantial operations out of Berlin (BA aimed largely at internal German flights while Dan Air used to fly holiday routes from Berlin to the Med). Both of these however stopped in the 1990s (BA started Deutsche BA while Dan Air went bankrupt)


User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8279 times:

BA used to operate a service to Berlin from Heathrow via Hannover and from Glasgow/Manchester via Dusseldorf using the 1-11 fleet. At the German stop German cabin crew would join the flight. Used the services many times.

In the 1950s and 1960s Pan American's intra German services were operated by DC3s and DC6s.

There are publications around with photos of DC3s and DC6s looking very smart in the late 1950s/1960s Globe scheme - no doubt someone can also point to such photos on the Net.


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8244 times:

TWA also had a flight that dipped into Africa for a bit on its way from Lisbon to Athens.
JFK-LIS-MAD-ALG-TUN-FCO-ATH
I would say Rome was probably one of TWA's busier European cities...being the bookend for many of the flights working their way through from JFK/BOS.
Routes such as:
BOS-SNN-CDG-GVA-MXP-FCO-(ATH-TLV)
JFK-LHR-FRA-ZRH-FCO-(CAI-DHA-BOM)
JFK-SMA-LIS-MAD-FCO
JFK-FCO



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User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9279 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8236 times:

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 21):
British Airlines also did the same during the Cold War. British Airways and Dan Air both had fairly substantia

of course. we have discussed this here not too long ago. Before West German regained full sovereignty in 1955 and Lufthansa was re established, Germany was openh market for KLM, SAS, SABENA, Air France, BEA, BOAC and Swissair. Even into the late 60s AF had routes like PAR-HAM-ANC-TYO or BOAC had routings through DUS to the Far East, operating with Comets and VC10s.

Berlin was a domain for the 3 allied powers until 1990, AF flew only via DUS and BE/PA divided the cake between them, some cities like HAM / HAJ had both carriers whereas DUS/CGN had BA only and FRA PA only operating to ZHF and later TXL.

Quite impressive operations at THF BTW, I once made a 25 mins connection there.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
25 Philb : If I remember rightly, once BEA started operating the 1-11 all Air France flights to Berlin were operated by BEA under a code share and the BEA aircra
26 BCAL : A few corrections. The present BA never had any of their fingers in the German domestic market. It was their predecessor British European Airways (BE
27 BCAL : Yes I remember that too. It caused quite a stir at BEA Head Office, who thought they had gained one over their rivals at BOAC!
28 Scalebuilder : I think I can testify to this without being scientific. My girlfriend and I flew FBU-ARN-JFK back in the summer of either 88 or 89. At FBU the L1011
29 Philb : Sorry, BCAL, that's incorrect. BA flew internal German services until just after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Under the 4 power agreement which laste
30 Post contains images BCAL : Thanks for the correction. You are absolutely right - BOAC and BEA were disolved on 1 September 1972 and BA was formed on the same day, so BA did fly
31 Tango-Bravo : An interesting observation I have made, based on circumstantial photo evidence, is that the equipment utilized by PA, TW, DL and UA on their intra-Eur
32 KL577 : I flew TW 815 and TW 814 too in 1989! In JFK we connected for Tulsa. On the return flight we missed our connection in JFK and TW paid us a hotel in N
33 Philb : Pan Am 727-100s were still in Berlin up to early 1982. Pan Am had a number of 737s operating out of LHR and in Germany but the bulk of the flights wer
34 DTW757 : Wow sounds like a nice experience for you. Maybe we were even on the same flight....we had a 1 in 365 chance of that. Yep TWA did operate the 727 out
35 TAN FLYR : Remember that prior to, during, and for a while after WWII, PA was the "Chosen Instrument" of US foreign flying. Pan American had tremenous clout in
36 GECMD11 : Not sure if TW service to SVO ever got off the ground...... it was to be BRU-SVO with a MD80. not sure if it ever went thru? My dad worked for TWA in
37 PanHAM : PanAm switched from DC6Bs to 727-100 and replaced these with 727-200 later. The 200s were supplemented by 737-200 but also with A300 and A310 exclusi
38 Phllax : The JFK-Paris-TLV flight was Flight 800. The Paris-TLV sector was ultimately dropped for a JFK-TLV non-stop.
39 Stirling : What is "RA"?
40 PanHAM : F**K. the is am F missing. FRA of course. or EDDF in ICAO .
41 TAN FLYR : I think he meant FRA. My description of FRA as a "mini" hub was in contrast to the ops that PA had at MIA/JFK/Tokyo in those days. Also, remember tha
42 Cody : In the 1960's, TWA established a few Flight Attendant crew bases in Europe. Paris was one of them. Later, they closed the bases and terminated those t
43 N905TW : TWA service to SVO did in fact begin in spring of 1992. Flight 768, was an L-1011 from JFK to BRU, with a switch of aircraft in BRU to a 727. The ret
44 Scalebuilder : I miss those days too. There was a lot of nostalgia about flying within Europe back in the good old 80s. Even though I did not fly as much with TWA a
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