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What If! (Supersonic Transports)  
User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4626 times:

Somebody made my day by showing me this video!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RsJqMjpFNs

That has got me thinking !! What if a mach 2 , 250PAX aircraft can be made ( bigger ofcourse) out of composite and more effeceint turbojets ? What it find enough takers to make it viable ? Would a buisness class Passenger opt instead to travel faster but with lesser comfort !!

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4620 times:

I pray that it would. I miss her. I used to hear her engines every weekend, and see her gorgeous shape. It's truly sad she's gone.

I'll say this, whoever does it as a manufacturer will have my unwaivering support.

[Edited 2006-11-15 02:36:10]


I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4603 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 1):
I'll say this, whoever does it as a manufacturer will have my unwaivering support

I'll be Chirac's biggest supporter if he commits 20 billion euros to develop such a thing!! To hell with my views on launch aid if any country decides to launch a SST.


Although this is a bit interesting -

Quote:
L.A. to Tokyo in Four Hours - The Future High-Speed Civil Transport

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/factsheets/FutofFlt.html


Personally I see Lockheed Martin trying something like this !! I know Sukhoi is planning a SS BJ with Lockheed's assistance but If they could team up and build a concord replacement It would be amazing not only because of the capability but also because 2 giants and former rivals came to the plate and provided a new force in the commercial sector.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4588 times:

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 2):
Personally I see Lockheed Martin trying something like this !! I know Sukhoi is planning a SS BJ with Lockheed's assistance but If they could team up and build a concord replacement It would be amazing not only because of the capability but also because 2 giants and former rivals came to the plate and provided a new force in the commercial sector.

I wouldn't count the Russians out. Although my money would be on Boeing + Tupolev personally. That's assuming US/Russia politics settle down.

As someone who is a big fan of both Concorde and the Avro Arrow (many Avro engineers worked on Concorde after that project was scrapped) I know that we *can* do incredible things as human beings when we set our minds to it. All that seems to be lacking is the will, I doubt we aren't 'smart' enough to figure it out.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineFoxy From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 179 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4584 times:

There is still something about Concorde which sends a shiver down my spine, As that video states it was the natural centrepiece for national celebrations and i think this one of the biggest reasons one should have been kept airworthy, but alas.

User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4566 times:

Quoting Foxy (Reply 4):
There is still something about Concorde which sends a shiver down my spine, As that video states it was the natural centrepiece for national celebrations and i think this one of the biggest reasons one should have been kept airworthy, but alas.

I think it's a shame several weren't kept air worthy. Scratch that.. I think disgrace is more appropriate...



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4527 times:

Watching the video almost brought a tear to my eye. Oh, what the heck, it did bring one to my eye.

I hope Lockheed & the Russians can work something out

E-M-B  weeping 



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineBongo From Colombia, joined Oct 2003, 1863 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4527 times:

What a nice video, thanks. It brings good memories to me, back in 1.985, I flew on Air France´s Concorde and it was a moment I won´t forget. I went to the cockpit for a while and I remember basically every single movement from the waiting room to the landing in NY.


MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4513 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 3):
I wouldn't count the Russians out. Although my money would be on Boeing + Tupolev personally. That's assuming US/Russia politics settle down.

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/projects/ssbj/

Russians arent keeping quite !! I believe Lockheed is a advisor


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4488 times:

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 8):
http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/projects/ssbj/

Russians arent keeping quite !! I believe Lockheed is a advisor

And Boeing and TU did work together regarding testing for the super cruiser which was a lot closer to what we are talking about IMHO.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4432 times:

Great video! Thanks for posting.

Just curious: at the 1:09 mark, it shows the captain pushing the throttles hard to light the afterburners and achieve full T/O thrust. Could it be done like that because of FADEC (lucky me I did a little research before posting and found out that the Olympus 593 had the first FADEC in service)? Or am I being tricked by playback speed and you should always expect the throttles to be advanced as at the 2:03 mark?



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4345 times:

Definitely one of the greatest technological achievements of the human race, maybe behind only the Shuttle and the Saturn V/Apollo stack. It should be interesting to see where supersonic passenger flight goes from here. It would almost be a shame if it became routine in the future.


Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4324 times:

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 11):
It would almost be a shame if it became routine in the future.

Well I don't know.. I think it would become less 'awesome' than it is now, but I think for those of us that frequent sites like this or love planes it will always be a miracle. Just like every time you see a Jumbo leap into the air.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 12):
Just like every time you see a Jumbo leap into the air.

I remember seeing those on approach into PIT some 12 years ago... now coming back to the topic of the SST, the closest I ever got to one was that fmr BA Concorde on top of that Aircraft Carrier in New York. It would be neat to see a bird like that take to the skies again, and look ever brilliant as ever!



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4200 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 13):
BA Concorde on top of that Aircraft Carrier in New York.

The only time i visited USS intrepid was when they were running maintaince and the concorde was cordened off  Sad


User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4166 times:

Two of my best aviation experiences were 1: Concorde flight JFK-LHR in 1981 and 2: Getting framed poster of B.A. Concorde which still hangs in my study, alongside the collection of original aeroplane fridge art.

I do hope that someone tries an SST again, but I'm pretty sure that the economics will never again work. I seem to recall that Boeing did a study about 15 years ago that projected the world would not have enough wealthy people until 2030 or so to make a market for supersonic travel.



Jets are for kids
User currently offline727200er From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

The only aircraft I'm sorry I never flew. I've only even seen her twice, but I miss her so.


"they who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only at night" - Edgar Allen Poe
User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 15):
I seem to recall that Boeing did a study about 15 years ago that projected the world would not have enough wealthy people until 2030 or so to make a market for supersonic travel.

The concorde's Fuel requirment was about 3 times as much as a 747-100 of those times ( Gallons per Passenger (London to New York) ) If newer technology ( lighten up the airframe) , bigger aircraft ( double the PAX) and much more effeceint engines could reduce that to acceptable levels there can definately be takers !! I beleive that they should aim for Mach 1.5 - mach 1.8 speeds , 200-250PAX and fuel burns less then double of comparable subsonic aircrafts , Then I believe they could price a Cross atlantic at 4000-6000$ and sell seats !! A 3 hour concorde flight also means greater utilization interms of No. of flights per day !! If you can double PAX and still maintain a close enough Fuel burn rate ( say under 5500) then you could do very very well !! Technically challenging but not out of reach IMO !! Put in Lockheed , Sukhoi and Bae on the table and they'll deliver it !


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teachers/activities/3203_concorde.html


User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

The problem wasn't wealth per se, it was having enough wealthy individuals to smooth out the demand curve and provide a large enough market to offset the engineering costs. Mach drag being what it is, I don't think that less airframe mass has the same effect as on a subsonic aircraft, but I haven't looked at any numbers.

There is another small hurdle, and that is carbon footprint. I expect that any Concorde ll would attract more than its share of carbon drag. High altitude jet flight may yet be linked to accelerating environment damage too, in which case the SST will be dead.

Here's a little teaser: Boeing and NASA are test flying a telescoping sonic boom mitigator in the hope of allowing supersonic flight over land.



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineCessna057 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Wonderful video, thank you so much for sharing. Such a shame that its out of service  cry 


Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
User currently offlineGh123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting Bringiton (Thread starter):
Would a buisness class Passenger opt instead to travel faster but with lesser comfort !!

That was Concorde - Fast with less comfort.


User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 20):
That was Concorde - Fast with less comfort.

Yes but I was reffering to a new airframe with this gen. of technology , effeciency and lower cost!


User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3543 times:

Quoting Osiris30:
All that seems to be lacking is the will,

And money. Lots and lots of money.



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3483 times:
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The Boeing Museum of Flight in BFI plays this video in the little shack out by the Air Park where G-BOAG is parked. Moving video and a fine tribute to a wonderful plane who's company I was able to enjoy on a number of occasions.

User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

SST's are great for aircraft foamers as well as for bragging rights, but otherwise serve little-if any-practical purpose.

Until someone can figure out a way to engineer SST technology that can be made CHEAPER to build *AND* operate as opposed to subsonic, I'm afraid that it's going to remain a pipe dream.

It's not that we CAN'T do it. It's simply a matter of will and priorities. I reckon that anyone who has a few dozen billions in expendible cash can probably put it to better use than simply to appease airliner enthusiasts and shave travel times for that .0001% of the population.


25 Post contains links TeamAmerica : Then get ready to hail Japan: Japan and NASA team up for SuperConcorde IIRC Nasa is not in fact officially involved in the project as yet, it's all r
26 Osiris30 : My point was I think it can be done under those criteria today if someone really worked on it. And infact I think folks probably are very quietly ins
27 TeamAmerica : The simple principle of "can't get something for nothing" tells us that supersonic will never be cheaper. Will and priorities will not overcome this.
28 Bringiton : Also depends upon what the COST aspect is . If the Cost can be brought down by 30-40% through effeciencies etc then such an aircraft can be very profi
29 B2707SST : There are two kinds of cost that need to be kept in mind. The first is operating cost, and on this front, a 30-40% reduction is probably at the very
30 Post contains images Bringiton : But I am asking Chirac to do it not GWB !!!
31 Jammin : That was a beautiful video. I still can't believe that Concorde was before my time (aware of aviation stuff). Our current jets will probably be in the
32 Post contains images SSTsomeday : I think Richard Branson would have found a way, had he been allowed to buy some of them. Was it BA pride that prevented that? Yes, I would think that
33 Hmmmm... : That video was a puff piece about an aircraft that was both a bad idea, and badly executed. By that I mean a supersonic transport that was not needed,
34 Matt D : Re: Time saving. The whole idea of "saving time" seems to be self defeating. Consider this: It stands to reason that these proposed SST's would be use
35 Post contains images RIX : - oh, please... not again! PLEASE!!! (Will we ever be able to talk about the marvelous bird without Dick the Jerk PR BS stuff?) - nope. What is bad i
36 TeamAmerica : It was profitable to operate a bare handful of fully-amortized aircraft. Unless it becomes profitable to operate many hundreds of SST's there's no ju
37 SSTsomeday : Okay... your feelings are clear but I don't have any information about the underlying content that brings you to such a strong opinion. I will do som
38 Post contains links GDB : SSTSomeday, (and anyone with an interest in this, or pre-conceptions about Concorde), I refer you to replies 60, 62 and 64 to this thread; RE: Concord
39 SSTsomeday : Excellent reading. Thank you.
40 CJAContinental : really nice video, hope some company invests in something similar
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