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Setting Flaps Right B4 Take-off  
User currently offlineTurtle From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 206 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Maybe I'm just noticing this but, the past couple of times I traveled from EWR to BOS, the pilots didn't set the take off flaps untill we were 1st up for take off. Normally, these settings take place, as far as my observance, the flaps get set after push back, engine start up, and maybe after start of taxi. Is this normal practice to wait until ones turn to take off to then deploy the edges and flaps? I get nervous because, I'm thinking "please don't forget to set the flaps". FACT: We are on a long line of planes to take off (maybe number 15 - 30) and my plane is always a 737-500 ( if that makes any diffenance). Help the dummy here and thanks...

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSpeedbird203 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 299 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3474 times:
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That is interesting, All of my previous flights, (Although International ) Have set flaps either, After Pushback, Or about 2-3 mins into taxi, Maybe the wind conditions were perfect and no flaps were needed  Wink Then things changed and he realised he needed them. Which aircraft was you flying on? Things vary all the time.


Metro Tower 135.0
User currently offlineDLCnxgptjax From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

You say it's been in the 753 everytime? Maybe CO changed the checklist for that particualr type, and now requires flaps to be set right before takeoff in the lineup checklist.

User currently offlineDetroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

I have read here before, that sometimes the planes take off with out any flaps at all. The planes are small however, and the runways are much larger than what is needed.. In the end it saves them a lot of fuel  Silly


Boiler Up!!!
User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

The old Boeing checklist called for setting flaps on initial taxi. Boeing changed the 737 series FCOM some months ago, and now the procedure is to set and verify flaps before taxiing. Carriers can adopt the manufacturer's procedures at will, but most do not owing to liability considerations.

There is no circumstance where any 737 can depart without at least some take-off flap. (The 737-200 used flaps one in hot/high conditions. the most common flap setting is flaps five, for the 737-200 through 737-800.

Airmanship sometimes requires not setting flaps when taxiing out through slush/wet snow because you don't want that stuff splashing up and freezing onto the lower surface of an extended flap. In this case the before take-off checklist (which contains flaps) is not accomplished until the flaps are set.



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineTurtle From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

I fly down from BOS (where i live) and on the same airline and 737-500 and wings got set b4 or just after taxi. In my previous senerio (ewr-bos) the flaps got set at the same time they anounced "were up, flight people be seated". When being sort-of educateded on flight and knowing that non-deployed flaps can mean disaster on takeoff, looking out the window and seeing non-deployed flaps while on line for take off, I look out the window and hope be they doit.

User currently offlineTurtle From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

Quoting Turtle (Thread starter):
Airmanship sometimes requires not setting flaps when taxiing out through slush/wet snow because you don't want that stuff splashing up and freezing onto the lower surface of an extended flap. In this case the before take-off checklist (which contains flaps) is not accomplished until the flaps are set.

Thanks for your response but, we are in a climate of about 55 - 65 degrees F in this region at this time.


User currently offlineRandyWaldron From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 324 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

Quoting Turtle (Reply 5):
"were up, flight people be seated".

Is that supposed to mean, "Flight Attendants prepare for departure?"

Pilots do not call Flight Attendants "Flight People" - They may be called many things, but not Flight People. As you're in BOS, come join our spotter group!

RW - In BOS - At the end of 22L



"Flaps 20, gear down, landing checklist please..."
User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

Well, its not like I keep track of the weather on the eastern seaboard anymore. I mentioned the snow in the interests of completeness.


Jets are for kids
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

Quoting Speedbird203 (Reply 1):
Maybe the wind conditions were perfect and no flaps were needed Then things changed and he realised he needed them.

Flaps position-0 isn't an authorized takeoff setting for the 737, or any other Boeing that I know of.

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 3):
I have read here before, that sometimes the planes take off with out any flaps at all.

The A300 has been mentioned in previous threads, but that's the only one I can think of...


User currently offlineTurtle From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Jees oh Man!

FLAPS!! Why did they wait till it was our time to take off b4 deploying wing flaps???? That's all I'm asking.


User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Because either they forgot, or something atypical happened to mess up the crews' action flow. Sometimes events or actions trigger other actions. Perhaps they didn't start both engines* until five minutes or so before take-off, and didn't perform the after start actions prior to taxi.

*some airlines may still do this in the interests of fuel savings when lengthy delays are expected.



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineTurtle From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 8):
Well, its not like I keep track of the weather on the eastern seaboard anymore. I mentioned the snow in the interests of completeness.

Your info was good and informative. I'm not sure how I made you feel otherwise. I was just making a point that at this time we are not in a cold season, yet.

Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 7):
Is that supposed to mean, "Flight Attendants prepare for departure?"

Pilots do not call Flight Attendants "Flight People" - They may be called many things, but not Flight People.

What can I say, I'm a lazy F*** and I will paraphrase when I can. But, at least intellegient people like you understand what I'm saying... Smile

Tell me about this spotting location. I'm not much of a spotter myself (except for castle island). I'd like to take some cool pics...


User currently offlineTurtle From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 11):
Because either they forgot, or something atypical happened to mess up the crews' action flow. Sometimes events or actions trigger other actions. Perhaps they didn't start both engines* until five minutes or so before take-off, and didn't perform the after start actions prior to taxi.

*some airlines may still do this in the interests of fuel savings when lengthy delays are expected.

Interesting point. When long delays at EWR (i.e. 15-40th in line for takeoff),the second engine remains off untill about 5th in line.

I don't know ~ I hate being on the take-off line and the wings are "cleaned up" ~ did I get that airplane quote right?


User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 954 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Since it was EWR and you said it was a long line of a/c waiting, you probably were taxiing on only one engine. They probably lowered the flaps to take off position after the second engine was started.

Just my guess.... I will ask a 737 driver next time I am on a narrowbody desk.


User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3473 times:

Quoting Turtle (Reply 13):
don't know ~ I hate being on the take-off line and the wings are "cleaned up" ~ did I get that airplane quote right?

yeah, pretty much correct. I'd hate it too. When time compresses things get forgotten. Getting an engine started just before take-off and then doing the "after start" and "before take-off" actions and checklists in a rush is to invite error. Maybe those crews are well versed in doing it that way, and have checklists that provide good safety margins.

I have never operated a 737 that way so am not qualified to comment on those procedures. I have seen guys unknowingly attempt a zero flap take-off only to be reminded by the take off configuration warning horn. RTO, red faces, try again. The big problem is that one day the config. warn horn will fail too, just like at DTW some years ago.

Sorry for getting snippy before-I was living up to my name. Anyway...you are right to be uneasy when taxiing with the wing not configured for take-off.



Jets are for kids
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