Bahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1879 posts, RR: 10 Posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12798 times:
I am not trying to create a major argument here but i recently went through a training of a regional airline. What suprised me was the number of pilots (mid 20s) that couldn't tell the difference between an A320 and B767. (I am not kidding you).. I asked them why they got into aviation and their response was "I want to work for Southwest and make $150/hr".. I find it amazing that almost none of them was knowledgable enough about aircraft types, aviation history, etc..
Now, you may say 'what's the big deal?" but this airline serves world's busiest airports like SFO, ORD, LAX.. what do you think will happen when ground controller says ' follow that American MD80"?????
Cessna057 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12768 times:
Its not that big of a deal...My private pilot instructor couldnt tell many of the Boeings appart. I was shocked when i jumped on a plane with him and looked out the window and i was like "Look at that T7" "..........whats a T7?"
Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
Saab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1620 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12774 times:
I would have to agree with you on that one. The title of your thread got me going, but you are actually quite right. Also, the ignorance of international aviation is astonishing too.
But for every RJ 'super pilot' who walks around in a leather jacket and shades in the terminal with the brand new, scratch-free flight case and 'Purdy Neat Things' bag, there are dozens who DO know what is going on.
But the funniest thing I think is when a 700 hour RJ dude talks about how unsafe an Airbus is and how he would much rather fly a Boeing because he doesn't want to give up control "to a bunch of French engineers"......... Just gotta laugh at the ignorance. But it is scary.
P3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12727 times:
Along similar lines, when I worked at ASH ATCT, A CFII came up to the tower, with her student, for a tour. As the introductions were being made, I said I was working Ground Control. The CFII looked at me with a puzzled look and said " That can't be, Ground Control is provided, as a service, by the FBO."
NYCA330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12611 times:
Listening to ground ATC (eg JFK) many of the instructions are of the nature "follow the a320", or "get behind the RJ" etc. it seems like a knowledge of aircraft types would be important for a pilot in these circumstances. God forbid they should follow the wrong plane!!
AirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12558 times:
I was wondering this the other day for the reasons listed. At busy airports like JFK, you have to know the different types because they tell you to follow an A320, 747, etc.
If a low time pilot doesn't know what kind of plane they are to hold for, follow, etc., do they refer to it as "the other plane"? You have to know something about other planes or you risk sounding ignorant. You'd think since they want to be a pilot, they would have enough interest in aviation to look at all the airplanes out there like some of us do for way to long every day.
FlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12557 times:
Quoting NYCA330 (Reply 7): Listening to ground ATC (eg JFK) many of the instructions are of the nature "follow the a320", or "get behind the RJ" etc. it seems like a knowledge of aircraft types would be important for a pilot in these circumstances. God forbid they should follow the wrong plane!!
An excellent point that's even more important in the air when cleared to follow a certain type (after reporting it in sight) on a visual approach. Just a few years ago, while on a visual approach to AUS, a 737 reported us (another 737) in sight, but it became apparent moments later that they had instead sighted (and now were following for the visual to 17R) a MD 80.
While no one is perfect, it's important to be able to distinguish amongst aircraft types. However, it can be very difficult, at a distance, to differentiate between a US A321 and a US B757, for example.
It can also be quite useful to recognize types by their lighting configurations at night.
FLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12555 times:
Seen a lot of that too. It's a huge pet peeve for me, specially if its coming from a fellow pilot. I think it's a pretty decent problem to be a concern. Suppose a slightly less obvious (to the average human being that is) differentiation is needed. Say ground tells plane x to follow an HP 737, and nearby that HP 737 there's an HP A320, both in the same colors. I would feel pretty uncomfortable if my captain could not tell the difference between an A320 and a 737, and I'd straight up call him a douchebag.
I'm really, really good at indentifying planes so its not an issue for me. All my buddies can at least tell the difference between a 757 and a 737. But I've come across some guys that can't tell the difference between an CRJ and a MD-80 or a 777 or a 737! Those guys should have no business in the aviation business.
EmiratesA345 From Canada, joined Jun 2003, 2123 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12463 times:
The ignorant ones are those who would call a captain or any flight crew member a "douchebag" or something of the like.
To question safety based on a pilot's ability to differntiate aircraft is absolutely ridiculous.
As stated above, some pilots just don't have the interest in aviation as some of us here do. They join the army where they take up flying because it might be "cool" or whatever the case may be, and then once they leave they decide they might fly for the airlines, as that is what the majority of their training involved while serving.
I work for a transit system. I also happen to have an interest in buses and I can tell you that I am part of a small minority that can differentiate a Nova LFS from a New Flyer D40LFR. To them, a bus is a bus is a bus, just as to some pilots a plane is a plane is a plane.
Flyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12461 times:
A few months ago I was standing in the gate area for US in PHX. I was scheduled on a A320. As I stood there next to the flight crew, I noticed that an A319 was pulling in to the gate. I turned and said to the gate agent "has this flight been changed to a 319?" He looked it up and said yes.
The FO then turned to me and said "how did you know that the plane was a 319 so quickly? I said it only had one over wing exit. He replied, I didn't even know that. The pilot gave him a hell of a time after that.
Curmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 12412 times:
Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 11): Still, I would have thought that in his line of work he would eventually pick up a thing or two!
Oh, he will. The bar tab after embarassing someone with his lack of nous.
To be fair though, no one is ever going to ask a QF pilot to visually identify and follow anything, so maybe it doesn't matter.
Quoting EmiratesA345 (Reply 12): The ignorant ones are those who would call a captain or any flight crew member a "douchebag" or something of the like.
Silver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4924 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12258 times:
Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 16): What a lot of people don't realize is that for a lot of people flying is little more than a job, no different to them than if they were to punch a clock at an office everyday.
And I find that to be so strange! Becoming an airline pilots (civilian route) takes a lot of time, money and dedication. That's a lot of effort for "just a job".
Many of us would kill to have an office at 30,000+ feet but are struggling to make that a reality.
About the whole aircraft recognition from ATC instructions thing... I love aviation, but I don't know every type of GA aircraft. That has never really become an issue for me during my training. After I receive an instruction, as long as I follow the rest of the instructions (example, where to look) I have a pretty good idea who they are referring to. The same goes on the ramp at SAN. Captain will often say what I should be looking for and that we are clear to push once they clear behind us. While I know the airliners types, most rampers generally do not. However, they know based on the rest of the instruction, that there is a plane about to pass, and that we are clear after them.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
I would love to hear what happends when you call your captain that. Also, as a student at embry-riddle I would imagine you would have a little more respect for your fellow crew members. But then again, riddle guys to get a little over their heads. .
FlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 12085 times:
Quoting KingAirMan (Reply 18): But then again, riddle guys to get a little over their heads. .
Hey, he doesn't speak for all of us (and I know this kid too). By the way, I just made a T/O in Carlsbad tonight with an RVR of 800 and skies obscured at 001. It was basically an instrument T/O and it was insane! Tower: "Seminole 575ER, winds xxx at x, tower has no visual contact, clear for T/O rwy XX" HA!
113312 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 578 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 12009 times:
It is a sad comment just how many "airline pilots" don't know and do not care about the history of aviation, the airlines and the planes that are around and have come before. People like us, enthusiasts, are considered geeks and weirdos. So be it. I've been watching planes since I was three years old.
What is truly sad is that many in the FAA and NTSB don't know too much either. I attended a hearing regarding a major accident and the NTSB folks didn't know the difference between a MD-11, DC10-10 or a DC10-30. They couldn't even understand why some had center landing gear and why. Give me a break! And these folks are going to make a technical determination investigating an accident and flight operations?
Even though people like that piss me off sometimes, (I deal with these people at my own workplace), they are only in it for the money and couldn't give a pig's butt about anything else. Luckily, we are the fortunate ones and have a certain passion for aviation and are knowledgeable in many areas which is a good thing. (Especially when a captain knows what the different types of aircraft are ... which could save about 1 - 500 lives, if not more, given a dangerous situation.)
Ryanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4771 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11962 times:
I used to be a pilot trainee with Silkair / Singapore Airlines. I was destined for the A320s but alas, I failed the ATPL paper.
After one of our many ATPL exams at Changi Airport, I was plane spotting at the viewing gallery with a few of my flying college mates and one of them turned to me and asked, "How do you tell the difference between a Boeing and an Airbus?"
Needless to say i was dumbfounded and I didn't even know how to reply. I mean... WHERE DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO DESCRIBE THE DIFFERENCES??
You be surprised many of them are flying the skies today (my ex-classmates). In fact one of them got screwed really bad while taxying in LAX recently. ATC told my mate to "taxy behind Aeroflot"... and he went blank. His first question was "What is Aeroflot?". He got a verbal bashing from the Captain.
Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
Dreamflight767 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11737 times:
A pilot not being able to recognize an airplane is pretty bad. But as an ATC student, I see this type of "Ignorance" every day amongst my fellow trainees. It is very frustrating to be working with them when they do not know what kind of airplane I'm referring to. And forget about them knowing airline color schemes.
That statement is the most telling. Like someone else said, for some people, it will always be just a job. That doesn't make them unsafe or ignorant, just interested in other things. I have flown with a few guys like that and they do just fine. They are, quite bluntly, in it for the money. It is not different than someone who becomes a lawyer or an investment banker for the same reason. If they can't tell the difference between a 767 and a A330 I could not care less, just so long they know it is a heavy. Odds are they probably know a few things in areas where I am ignorant.
Proud OOTSK member
: This is shocking that any pilot, anywhere in the world, would not know the difference between, for example, an A320 and a 727. What a kid would know.
: I listen to DTW ATC all the time when I am sitting at my desk at home and I always the controller telling a pilot to follow a 747, DC-9,A-320, etc. I
: Because you analogy does not hold up. We would forgive a brain surgeon if he could not name all of the bones in the foot. And we would forgive the br
: What, the new Schwartzenegger movie? But seriously: I take the point that not everyone is really interested in spending all of their time learnnig th
: I find this hard to believe because everybody that becomes a pilot has a common interest in aircraft, but knowing some people it may be true. There a
: AirWillie, you can find it hard to believe, but this is the truth. I can name at least 5 people in the class of 30 that we discussed this. they were l
: I think it's just plain lazy when pilots don't take the time and learn about their industry - I learnt about the basics of aviation and how to identif
: This topic is ridiculous. What does aircraft recognition have to do with a pilot's ability? Sure it helps in spotting traffic, but it isn't imperitive
: I've had controllers who demonstrated a slight lack of aircraft recognition skill, as well. I was departing a decent-sized airport once. This particu
: Sounds to me like you were just bragging. A very small percentage of pilots and ATC know the Goshawk. Why not just call it a T-45? But you had to end
: Well, not all airline pilots spend every waking hour on A.net like all of us dorks. j/k Kidding aside, aircraft recognition by now means determines pi
: The safety ramifications of an airline crewmember not being able to tell between a B737 and an A320 or something similar are probably fairly small. Th
: Dude, I can't tell the difference visually between a -10 and a -30. Now if they can't tell the difference between a 747 and an A380, than that would
: Absolutely! There seems to be a high percentage of A.netters who think that everyone has to agree with them on everything. Are those of you who know
: Well, your interpretation isn't accurate. I was in no way attempting to "brag". Care to present some evidence to back up your claim? Because it seems
: From being around pilots, being a pilot, and working with pilots 12 hours a day or so, I just know that most don't know what a Goshawk is. I just hap
: If it helps, the best way to tell the difference between the DC-10-10 and the DC-10-30 is by checking the main gear. The DC-10-10 lacks a center gear
: If an airline pilot can not tell the difference between a 727 and a DC-10, that is akin to a surgeon not knowing the difference between a a big toe a
43 David L
: And ATC would probably say something like... I've heard expressions like "the big blue one in front of you" from ATC when a pilot wasn't sure what he
: As I'm sure you've asked all of those pilots about the T-45 specifically, I look forward to hearing how you know for certain that "a very small perce
: Exactly. Being direct and simple is not the same as being cocky or disrespectful. Usually, the tone of voice says it all. 2H4
: I do not believe that any active pilot flying for a regional/fractional/corporate entity or larger would not be able to tell the difference between an
: The younger guys dont know the old stuff. I had to tell a Mesaba first officer the dif between a 707 and 720. He swore they were exactly the same but
: ...on an obscure aircraft name that you used and you are now proceeding to discuss him in a thread about ignorant pilots, thus implying that he was i
: I'm not that old, but what happened to the aircraft silhouettes that WWII and beyond fighter pilots had to remember as a course of their training so t
: I believe that aircraft/airline knowledge can only make you a better pilot. One of my ground school teacher who was presenting a power point on canadi
: Should it be ompulsary for pilots to have a general knowledge of aircraft types? I mean realistically, as said, in busy airports there aer 30/40 aircr
: i understand your argument....but wait till you've flown on the 737 with a captain that thinks the R-TO indication on EIS means rejected takeoff power
: I know a handful of guys (no women actually) that are now retired and they flew airliners for the money and women and nothing else. Their true love i
: I'm not going to dwell here on how much lacking these recognition skills might affect flight safety on a regular basis without any hard data or releva
: I didn't read all the responses so I don't know if this was answered yet. T7 is slang for the B777 aka T-ripple 7. I thought it was "Tool"
: Perhaps we can continue the thread without the ridiculous comments? I too would have thought that a basic knowledge would help, as in certain example
: If you literally said "Tee-Seven", I wouldn't know what the hell you are talking about either, and I can identify pretty much all of the commercial p
: This is an interesting thread, but I think it could use a funny story to liven things up... A newly-certified private pilot was on a cross-country, a
: I do believe a pilot having a knowledge of recognition of other planes would be beneficial to him/her even if they are good at their job. When I was i
: I am a controller at ORD ATCT and of the 55 controllers we have, I guarantee less than 10 of my co-workers know the Goshawk. How do you know you and
: I find that surprising. Do you think they are more familiar with the "T-45" designation? Obviously I did not have the same picture as the ground cont
: Really? If you are told to follow an A320 or 737 painted in the same livery from standard in trail position/separation say 3 miles out from the rear
: Yes, that's what would be printed on the flight strip.
: Interesting. Thanks for the info. I can honestly say that "Goshawk" was the very first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the aircraft, so tha
: And there is nothing wrong with that. I know here at ORD, alot of my co-workers call B737's "guppies." I've never heard that nickname until I transfe
: that is very true. its thrown me off a little bit. easy for me. especially the Airbus'. i love buses!! not a Nova fan, but a New Flyer and NABI. favo
: This is a bit off-topic of the Navy's jet trainer, but along the lines of the forum topic. My girlfriend is a flight attendant for a regional, whose c
: I know what you mean. It's amusing yet annoying at times when you hear things from people flying and in the industry (or aspiring anyway). Once I was
: Im a pilot and if the controller asked me to follow a Goshawk I would have no idea what he was referring to. If the controller asked you to follow a m
: That's all Jax approach controllers call them, I've heard some pilots point to the jet and call it a Jungle jet and have no idea what it's real desig
: I like the AA reservations lady who told me they don't have any MD-80 aircraft. But they had a lot of "Super 80" aircraft. Mark
72 Max Q
: This is not necessary for an airline pilot to know, I happen to be an enthusiast and a professional pilot and can identify most types, but, so what? I
: Vast majority of my fellow aerospace engineering students will think very similarly. To them, it's all about the benjamins. They do not care for the
: That's a pretty funny example. However, I divert back to this: The way I see it, if the FAA CAA and other aviation "governing bodies" do not require
: end of thread. very well put and is 100% correct.