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PAL A346/B773ER Decision Due Next Week  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 89
Posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8605 times:
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PAL will announce their selection of either the A340-600 or B777-300ER next week;

Limited fair use excerpt;

By Chan Sue Ling
Nov. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Philippine Airlines Inc., the nation's largest carrier, will make an announcement next week on its plans to add six wide-body aircraft to its fleet, President Jaime Bautista said.

The aircraft will be used for routes to the U.S., the carrier's single-biggest source of revenue, and Australia, Bautista said in an interview today. He reiterated that Philippine Airlines is choosing between Airbus SAS's A340-600 and Boeing Co.'s 777-300ER aircraft.

''From now until 2011, we are considering six wide-body planes'' from either of the planemakers, said Bautista, who was attending an aviation conference in Osaka, Japan. ''We will make an announcement on the aircraft purchase plan next week.''


[END - Limited fair use excerpt http://www.bloomberg.com ]

My 2 cents.....6 x 773ER

Regards, PanAm_DC10


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8592 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
My 2 cents.....6 x 773ER

I agree. They never took delivery of some 744's. They could just convert those to 773ER's plus add a couple more. Make sense for them.



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineNirvarma From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8546 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
My 2 cents.....6 x 773ER

Hi PanAm.
Do you think these will be leased i.e. are they likely to included in the 15 UFO 777s listed on Boeing's orders page recently?

Cheers
NV


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31248 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8548 times:
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I concur. The 773ER makes the most sense to replace their four 744s and 1 744M. Wikipedia says they also want two medium-range planes, which will probably be more A330s.

If PAL didn't already have deposits with Boeing, I imagine the A346 would have had the inside shot since it leverages their A343 and A333 fleet.


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 89
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8516 times:
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Quoting Nirvarma (Reply 2):
Do you think these will be leased i.e. are they likely to included in the 15 UFO 777s listed on Boeing's orders page recently?

Hi Nirvarma

They will be a direct order, that said, upon delivery they may do a sale/leaseback but in Boeings favour is that they retain the deposit monies of 4 x 744 PAL still has on order and no, they are not part of the UFO's booked this week.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineAirlineAddict From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 420 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8489 times:
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I'm thinking 6X A346 just because of fleet commonality and the "cancellation"/transfer of EK's order.

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 89
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8453 times:
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Quoting AirlineAddict (Reply 5):
I'm thinking 6X A346 just because of fleet commonality and the "cancellation"/transfer of EK's order.

First delivery will be Q1 2009 according to Mr Jaime Bautista.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4937 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8244 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):

''From now until 2011, we are considering six wide-body planes'' from either of the planemakers,



Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 6):

First delivery will be Q1 2009 according to Mr Jaime Bautista.

Hello, friend.
So we are looking at maybe two frames per year?

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 4):
They will be a direct order, that said, upon delivery they may do a sale/leaseback but in Boeings favour is that they retain the deposit monies of 4 x 744

That practically confirms this would be for 773ERs, as it's unthinkable they would still be considering 748is after this order, and too far-fetched that PR would throw away those deposits. Is this why I didn't get a reply from you in your other thread?

Regards,
DF



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 89
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8154 times:
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Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 7):
Is this why I didn't get a reply from you in your other thread?

Hello DF you've got me there, my apologies, which other thread?  Confused

I shall reply sir

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 782 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8151 times:

I hope Airbus take this one but i think that Boeing is getting this....


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4937 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8049 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 8):
my apologies, which other thread?

No apologies needed. It's the "Boeing Poised..." thread.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 8):
I shall reply sir

Thank you, but no need to bother, as things seem to have been overtaken by events. And please drop the "sir".  Smile

Regards,
DF



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 89
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7864 times:
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Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10):
Thank you, but no need to bother, as things seem to have been overtaken by events.

Hi DF, again my apologies.

Have we a leak! Another site is carrying a report that PAL is expecting 6 x 773ERs!

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4937 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7587 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 11):
Have we a leak!

Leaks are great - how else would we get juicy stuff to discuss here? Big grin

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 11):
Another site is carrying a report that PAL is expecting 6 x 773ERs!

Which site is that? Please send me a message if it's not for general consumption.  Wink

Regards,
DF



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineSturdy From Ireland, joined Nov 2003, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7492 times:

Awesome can't wait to fly on PAL 777-300ER! But my big money is on airbus Big grin

User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4937 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7422 times:

Quoting Sturdy (Reply 13):
But my big money is on airbus

If only that "big money" could replace the deposits with Boeing, then you'd have better than odds on chance of winning!



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7369 times:

IMHO we will see an order for A346HGW.

Here is the reason why I think so.

Fleet Comonality. Except for RR of course.

Lufthansa Technic in MNL will be able to take care of them.

Airbus is Desperate to find some wide body customers, PR has been a very good Airbus customer.

NO ETOPS problems with quads. Im not sure but it seems that there will be extra money need be spent to send B77W's to LAX/SFO.

and the best reason is:

PRICE. PR doesn't have top dollar to pay for B77W's.

With regards to Boeings B747 deposits, I think that those have all been long gone since the late 90's when PR went into Recievership and its aircraft was impounded by creditors. Creditors might have been able to take the deposits.

Just my 2 cents.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7197 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 15):
Creditors might have been able to take the deposits.

While it is a close race, I would say my money is on the 773ER. Even of late, very strong Airbus clients have been buying the 773ER..... its economics simply cannot be ignored, ETOPS to the US isn't too big of a deal, there aren't really any dead spots on the route. Neither A346 or 773ER would surprise me, but if I had to bet, it'd be on the 777.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31248 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7108 times:
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Quoting KL808 (Reply 15):
With regards to Boeings B747 deposits, I think that those have all been long gone since the late 90's when PR went into Recievership and its aircraft was impounded by creditors. Creditors might have been able to take the deposits.

Boeing physically has control of those monies. They were paid to Boeing by PAL. So PAL's creditors had no claim on them and therefore they remain with Boeing.

So unless PAL is willing to forfeit those monies to Boeing, PAL can use it for a future Boeing purchase, including the 773ER.


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7047 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
Boeing physically has control of those monies. They were paid to Boeing by PAL. So PAL's creditors had no claim on them and therefore they remain with Boeing.

But Boeing was one of those creditors. Basically thats what I meant. Boeing probably took some, if not all of the monies.

The thing is.... Is the deposit ENOUGH to offset the upfront high cost of a B777-300ER?

Remember PR is cash strapped.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31248 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6923 times:
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Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
But Boeing was one of those creditors. Basically thats what I meant.

Ah. Understood now.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
The thing is.... Is the deposit ENOUGH to offset the upfront high cost of a B777-300ER? Remember PR is cash strapped.

Well a 773ER is less expensive than a 744 at list, but admittedly a 773ER is more popular now so discounting is probably less. However, PAL did place their order in 1996, when the 744 reigned supreme, so chances are discounts weren't so great then, either.


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6875 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
Well a 773ER is less expensive than a 744 at list, but admittedly a 773ER is more popular now so discounting is probably less. However, PAL did place their order in 1996, when the 744 reigned supreme, so chances are discounts weren't so great then, either.

Point well taken.

In the end, Im just happy that PR will get some needed new frames.

Whether it be B77W's or A346HGW, they will serve PR well.

Just imagine how many people they will be able to fit in them. PR is slowly retrofiting its whole fleet to a two class carrier. ie Mabuhay and Fiesta Class.

Can't wait to hear what they have choosen.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineAirlineAddict From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 420 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6612 times:
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Quoting KL808 (Reply 20):
PR is slowly retrofiting its whole fleet to a two class carrier. ie Mabuhay and Fiesta Class.

Wow. I didn't know this. Will the "new" Mabuhay be an upgrade (somewhere between current and First Class)?

With more seats, I can only imagine the number of additional pieces of luggage on the carousel.


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6425 times:

Quoting AirlineAddict (Reply 21):
Will the "new" Mabuhay be an upgrade (somewhere between current and First Class)?

According to PR's press release the seat will be cocoon style, full lay flat seats.

So it will be a major upgrade from its current offerings on its fleet.

Hopefully it will be to par with CX/SQ/MH/TG.  duck 

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8456 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6194 times:
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Given the competition in Asia has 773ER's flying to California, PR will go with the flow. A340's are rare in Pacific routes. I expect PR to follow the reasoning of other like Cathay, EVA, ANA, JAL and Singapore Airlines.

User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5092 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6065 times:

I doubt they will go for the 777 but it would be wonderful if they do go for the 777


Work Hard But Play Harder
25 Trex8 : if they had been doing that for the last quarter century they would have been almost as financially succesful as some of those airlines too!
26 Birdbrainz : I agree. I'm going with the A340-600s, and for all the reasons KL808 cites. For some reason, they remind me of SAA. They're a cash-strapped, relative
27 Lostmoon744 : This is wonderful news. Ideally for me, I'd love to see them absorb both into their lineup.
28 RayChuang : I think Philippine Airlines will end up with the A340-600HGW because 1) Airbus will sell to them cheap, 2) this will take up the production slots int
29 Jacobin777 : Where do they fly where ETOPS on the 77W will be a problem? What will happen with the Boeing deposits and who's to say Boeing won't be able to give P
30 RayChuang : Well, flying across the Pacific from SFO or LAX to MNL means a LOT of overwater flying, and given the fairly stringent qualification requirements for
31 Thorben : Allright, A346 vs. 77W. I guess nobody expects them to take both, so what are the main arguments for the types? A346 - would fit very well into their
32 Trex8 : so if they go for 777s what do they have to do to get Etops certification not having ever operated a 777 or the engine type ??? how many hours will th
33 Post contains images KL808 : The real question is, do the deposit still exist, or has Boeing gradually taken some if not all of the deposits due to PR's lack of payment back in t
34 DEVILFISH : Not to mention that there might be others ahead in line for those slots. A considerable dent if the deposits are still intact. This is a big drawback
35 Brendows : When it comes to training, you would see savings due to the cockpit commonality, but maintenance-wice - the A330/A340 don't have that much in common
36 Jacobin777 : Getting ETOPS certified for 180 minutes won't take PR too much time..as they already fly A320's and A330's from NGO-KIX and A330s (with 744's) from M
37 DEVILFISH : The key here is if PR's Boeing fleet was acquired from Boeing. IINM, those were bought second hand. Did they have to assume payment balances still ou
38 Trex8 : there is nothing between the Japan mainland and MNL which would necessitate any etops procedures, there are these bodies of land called Okinawa and T
39 Post contains images Jacobin777 : They fly to both, with an A320 to GUM.... I have no clue at all... Who knows, maybe no one besides PR and Boeing know
40 Laxintl : According to Aviation Daily, PAL will sign for the 773ER. Plans are to acquire 2+2 options directly from Boeing, plus an additional two airframes from
41 Ikramerica : I would assume that if the deposits are gone, the orders are gone, but Boeing still lists the orders as outstanding, so can we assume that the deposi
42 QatarA340 : Is ETOPS applied internationally or each country can "misuse" Etops rules? I ask because Philippenes authories could or could not allow 77W to fly wit
43 Jacobin777 : I think that concept somehow got lost in my comments..but you are correct...PR could easily fly to SFO/LAX with the most basics of ETOPS regulations.
44 DEVILFISH : Thanks for that info, Laxintl. I seldom see posts from you lately. Best regards, DF Commercial airlines had been flying internationally from the Phil
45 Stitch : I wonder if two of those birds are from the 15 GECAS just ordered? Even if the Philippine authorities were brazen enough to allow Philippine Airlines
46 Trex8 : realistically how long would they have to run those new 77Ws around regional routes and get etops certified before they would be able to use them on t
47 Jacobin777 : You are assuming they are not ETOPS certified (I don't know either), but as using your argument, they already fly A320's to GUM...hence, there is a g
48 Ha763 : PR should already be ETOPS certified. They used to use their A330s to HNL quite regularly on extra section flights. Since they should have an ETOPS p
49 DEVILFISH : From all indications, none are part of the GECAS UFOs.
50 Trex8 : I'm clueless on Etops rules but doesn't the operator have to have experience with the specific aircraft type/engine???
51 Jacobin777 : Just a few trial routes to get experience with the airframe (something which they would probably do anyway)...
52 Trex8 : so an operator with no experience with a specific type can get whatever aircraft etops certification right out of the box as long as they have had so
53 Post contains links Stitch : Flight International is now saying PR has chosen the 773ER. http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...ral_aviation/read.main/3105845/#29
54 Jacobin777 : Its not that "cut and dry"..but if PR has years of experience flying (and maintenanc) with ETOPS, and the purchased planes are ETOPS certified, then
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