OU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (2 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1416 times:
Airbus Blamed for Poor French Economic Growth Thomas Lifson
Thu Nov 16, 4:30 PM ET
French economic growth is slumping and the problems at Airbus are getting blamed for it. The two year delay in delivery of the A380 super jumbo is reverberating throughout the French and EU economies. Politics, always a factor at the mammoth "social enterprise," continues to intrude, as fear of unemployment and fear of failure motivate politicians to take measures dumping yet more tax money into Airbus.
The scale is so great that it is starting to affect France and the EU. The full effect will be felt some time in the future.
DAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 54 Reply 3, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1206 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 1): While I agree there is an impact, but I am a bit skeptical it's as big as the author is postulating.
Same here. After all, the A380 crisis is also severely affecting Germany as well, and yet, our economy is growing pretty well. The author of the article was probably just looking for some cheap attention.
TeamAmerica From United States, joined Sep 2006, 1538 posts, RR: 18 Reply 4, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1050 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 1): While I agree there is an impact, but I am a bit skeptical it's as big as the author is postulating.
Add a ditto for me. Sounds like politicians and pundits grabbing the story-of-the-moment and oversimplifying. Same as in the USA.
France is the 6th largest economy in the world in terms of GDP; as big as EADS/Airbus is, they simply cannot be the only factor in the slowdown. Consider that despite everything Airbus is profitable, and also that it is only partly owned by France...they are being made into a scapegoat for much deeper problems.
Poitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1036 times:
Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 4): France is the 6th largest economy in the world in terms of GDP; as big as EADS/Airbus is, they simply cannot be the only factor in the slowdown. Consider that despite everything Airbus is profitable, and also that it is only partly owned by France...they are being made into a scapegoat for much deeper problems
Such as an employment policy where you can't lay off excess employees, so nobody wants to hire them in the first place? I agree, both Airbus's problems and those of the French economy are caused by the same issues, the French government.
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10017 posts, RR: 29 Reply 7, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 836 times:
Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2): Wow, thats farther than anyone here has taken the A380 subject. Not only is this a/c hurting Airbus, but now the entire EU? Thats a heavy subject.
The multi billion dollar cost to the taxpayers due to the A380 fiasco (and the upcoming A350 fiasco) are sure hurting.
They're not the only factor (the EU itself is the main factor, not any single company or program), but it is A factor.
Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 4): France is the 6th largest economy in the world in terms of GDP; as big as EADS/Airbus is, they simply cannot be the only factor in the slowdown. Consider that despite everything Airbus is profitable, and also that it is only partly owned
The entire A380 project is funded by tax money from EU taxpayers in the form of no-interest loans and outright grants. Until the project starts turning a profit at the earliest (and it seems unlikely that that will happen any time soon) not a cent of that will ever be seen again.
Of course the main drain isn't in France so you're right there, it's in the rest of the EU (like always when the EU throws good money after bad, like farming subsidies), but it does cost everyone (including France).
And the cost isn't just direct. If people pay more taxes to keep Airbus afloat they're buying less Renault and Peugeot cars, less French cheese and wine, taking less vacations to the French rivierra, etc. etc. just because they don't have the money to spend so it has something of a snowball effect.
Kiramakora From India, joined Aug 2006, 413 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 813 times:
I dont think you could use Airbus as an explanation of French economic woes. Perhaps, a correlation could be made than the Airbus problem is a good representation of the challenges France faces in the global society.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 14 Reply 9, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 736 times:
Quoting Jwenting (Reply 7):
The multi billion dollar cost to the taxpayers due to the A380 fiasco (and the upcoming A350 fiasco) are sure hurtin
excuse me, but could you explain that please?
Besides that the delays are putting some dents into the airbus balance sheets, the program overall is adding to the GNP of both France and Germany. People are employed, wages paid, taxes and social contribution from wages withheld, the economies of both countries would be worse off without the A380 program than with.
Next - even if 10 aircraft are not delivered next year and their sales returns are not added to the GNP and - ket's say that would be 1,5 Billion (Milliarden) Euros less for each country, which translates roughly into 0,1% of the GNP.
Germany's GNP grows by about 2,8% this year, I do not have the figure for France. The growth in Germany can be attributed to the fact that the economy was more or less left alone by the Government. France has much more state intervention which always hinder an economy to grow. They should not blame Airbus for these problems.
Just heard an interesting figure this week, which can serve as a good comparison. Israel's economy grows 4% this year despite 33 more or less lost days in August.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
OU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 650 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9): the economies of both countries would be worse off without the A380 program than with.
The way in which EADS/Airbus is structured . It will neither help or hurt it . In that I mean , they will not have great gains nor will the governments allow Airbus to go under . Germany may have had a good year . However , when you compare the EU job creation & growth to that of the US . The US set up [pro-growth/ free market] economy , the US is way ahead .
And to answer your question . Both countries would have been far better off if Airbus went with a product that would generate much greater yields than the A380 . The A380 is costing EU taxpayers now & for years to come . This program may never make a profit !
Financial Times international editor Olaf Gersemann blames French and European unemployment on high minimum-wage requirements and overly strict employment-protection laws. Gersemann, who scathingly criticized Western Europe in his book "Cowboy Capitalism," says these labor-market regulations have created millions of involuntary unemployed throughout Europe, affecting immigrants in particular. He writes, "Most French, German, and Italian voters simply refuse to accept the necessity of a Thatcher-Reagan style economic revolution." He notes that per capita income in the U.S. now exceeds that of France by close to 40 percent, with Germany and Italy lagging even further behind.
In a dramatic speech to the European Parliament last summer, British Prime Minister Tony Blair hit the mark when he criticized all Western European economies for their inability to compete on an acceptable global level. Asked Blair, "What type of social model is it that has 20 million unemployed in Europe? Productivity rates falling behind those of the USA? That, on any relative index of a modern economy --- skills, R&D, patents, information technology --- is going down, not up?"
This thread is about blaming Airbus for France's "woes" (Civil Aviation). The other thread is about how "Europeans" are heading towards "doom and despair" (Non-aviation).
Quoting OU812 (Reply 10): The way in which EADS/Airbus is structured .
Did you fall asleep before you got a chance to finish that sentence?
OU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 562 times:
Quoting David L (Reply 11): That excerpt doesn't mention Airbus at all. You seem to have confused this thread (which you started) with another one:
It is to prove my thesis , that the set-up which airbus currently has in place will not see the returns of private industry which is much more common in the US . However , people like you [EU taxpayers] will support the A380 program [as you did the Concorde] to keep it from going under !
Airbus & Socialism go hand in hand . So , at times it's difficult to avoid , especially when there is so much talk about Launch Aid for the purposed XWB-A350 .
Care to discuss this topic or can you only contribute to this thread with just obnoxious , irrelevant replies ?
Gbfra From Germany, joined Sep 2006, 448 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 560 times:
Yes, yes, if you want to make a point, never look at facts and figures, please. Otherwise you might get disturbed.
However:
The combined GDP of Germany and France was roughly 4000 billion Euros in 2005.
The annual turnover of Airbus is hardly exceeding 20 billion Euros (and a part of this turnover comes from outside of Europe). In the list of the biggest European companies Airbus does not rank among the Top 20. Airbus is of no crucial importance for the European economy; especially the costs or benefits of the A380 are not significant at all for the whole economy. Even if this is an airline-forum don't overestimate the importance of this particular industry. Industries like cars, chemicals, pharmaceuticals or banking are much more important.
Public aid for the A380 amounts to roughly 4 billion Euros. The claim that the A380 was completely state-financed is utter crap.
Several analyses by economists have shown that European governments have received more money from Airbus than they have injected into the project. The familiar claim that Airbus has cost taxpayers a lot of money is also false. (See a study of the German "Monopolkommission" for reference)
Finally, it is pretty obvious that the European economies have to become more competetive. No doubt about that. However, German exports have been exceeding US exports for years (and UK exports by far). So I'm not sure that Europe, or Germany for that matter, are not competetive at all.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8246 posts, RR: 40 Reply 14, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 510 times:
Quoting OU812 (Reply 12): Care to discuss this topic or can you only contribute to this thread with just obnoxious , irrelevant replies ?
Care to discuss this topic without the gnashing of teeth?
All your post did was make two independent points then imply one was the cause of the other. There are plenty of good posts above discrediting your theory. Airbus turnover is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 10617 posts, RR: 51 Reply 16, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 477 times:
Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 4): France is the 6th largest economy in the world in terms of GDP; as big as EADS/Airbus is, they simply cannot be the only factor in the slowdown. Consider that despite everything Airbus is profitable, and also that it is only partly owned by France...they are being made into a scapegoat for much deeper problems.
Quoting Jwenting (Reply 7): The entire A380 project is funded by tax money from EU taxpayers in the form of no-interest loans and outright grants.
Quoting Gbfra (Reply 13): Public aid for the A380 amounts to roughly 4 billion Euros. The claim that the A380 was completely state-financed is utter crap.
I was going to write an explanatory response to Jwentings rubbish, but now I come to think of it, Gbfra's is much more better! I usually do not go as extreme as calling something rubbish but this has been argued so long and so often. Do you really want me to produce (again) about 4 years of Hansard and HoC documents?
Quoting OU812 (Reply 12): Airbus & Socialism go hand in hand .
And so? You apparently think that Socialism is a fatal disease in a way that smacks of the brainwashing characteristic of the Stalinist states that you obviously seem to equate with Socialism. Far from being a fatal disease, Socialism correlates well with a number of good outcomes, especially in terms of health.
For the past few years it appears as if Airbus returns have exceeded those of a prominent competitor, so whatever system is producing it, it cannot all have been bad.
OU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 412 times:
Quoting Baroque (Reply 16): You apparently think that Socialism is a fatal disease
Where did I state that in this thread ? I didn't ! Nor do I think that is true . The majority of the EU want it , it's their choice . Can't be all that bad !
Quoting Baroque (Reply 16): For the past few years it appears as if Airbus returns have exceeded those of a prominent competitor, so whatever system is producing it, it cannot all have been bad.
If that's the case then why are the German & French gov. coughing up millions for Airbus suppliers ? Why is Airbus requesting Launch Aid for the A350 ?
22.05.2006 17:22
RPT EU govts to decide on launch aid for Airbus A350 by mid-July - Perben
PARIS (AFX) - The governments of the UK, Germany, Spain and France will make a decision by mid-July on how much aid could be given to Airbus for the launch of its new A350 jet, French Transport Minister Dominique Perben said.
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