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US/DL Merger Ethics; Parker Vs. Grinstien  
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4019 posts, RR: 11
Posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4414 times:

HP/US CEO Doug Parker has become the Wall Street adored darling of the airline industry and transportation sector over the past year and a half since he boldly propose that his carrier at the time America West (HP) acquire then USAir (US) and become USAirways group. In doing so he rescued a doomed soon to liquidate carrier in US and has forged ahead in creating a new carrier that is a force to be reckoned with along the eastern seaboard, southeast and to some extent the western USA. This merger was his first great success, he is young being only 45, and reportedly has quite the personality. Quite obviously he was able to sell Wall Street on this first deal.
On the other hand you have 75 year old Gerald Grinstien who was brought on nearly 3 years ago to rescue DL from the financial abyss dealt them by both Ronald W. Allen and Leo Mullin over the previous 15 years. Grinstien is a Harvard educated business attorney who has prior experience with mergers in the transportation sector first as CEO of Western Airlines back in the 1970s and 1980s. He rescued Western financially having them restructure many of their routes through SLC rather than just LAX or DEN, and then by the mid 1980s was successful in shopping Western for a merger with DL. After that Grinstien moved on to Burlington Northern Railway where he was also successful in orchestrating the merger with the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad to form BNSF. Grinstein is old enough to be Parker's father, and obviously has a more experienced understanding of mergers in the airline and transportation sector on the whole. He obviously understands securities law as well as anti-trust regulations to be able to deal with the FTC regulators and financial guru's on Wall Street.
In this proposed hostile takeover that sent the transportation sector on Wall Street into a frenzy this past week who is ultimately going to win in this battle? To use a couple of ethical term adjectives coined by Stephen R. Covey, will it be Parker and his obviously strong personality ethic? Or will it be Grinstien and his longstanding character ethic?   

[Edited 2006-11-19 19:39:18]


DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSBN580 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

This is interesting background. However, I do not know how the author you mention defines, "strong personality ethic," and "character ethic." They seem like both positive terms. Can you help us with the definitions?


North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24963 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4342 times:
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Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
In this proposed hostile takeover that sent the transportation sector on Wall Street into a frenzy this past week who is ultimately going to win in this battle?

You don't feel that there are enough threads on this already?

However:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
This merger was his first great success,

No, it was his second great success.

And I think you are missing a critical point about Mr. Grinstein, but I do think it would be polite if you spelt his name correctly.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4321 times:

Business 101 of the US society in the 21st century: there are no ethics and thee who is more narcissistic wins.

User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4019 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4295 times:

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 1):
This is interesting background. However, I do not know how the author you mention defines, "strong personality ethic," and "character ethic." They seem like both positive terms. Can you help us with the definitions?

http://www.stephencovey.com/index.html
I think this website can give you some good insight into the work of Dr. Covey since he is one of the top motivational and organizational guru's in the business world. Over the last twenty years or so there has been a considerable shift from the Dale Carnage "Character Ethic" to more of the "Personality Ethic" which is more manipulation based. Back in the early 1990s Dr. Covey published a book; The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". You can also find more about it over on the Franklin/Covey Leadership site: http://www.franklincovey.com/fc/index.jsp?
Outside of government many of the people I deal with work for Franklin Covey, and virtually all of them say this is a classic case of manipulation in the short term.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
You don't feel that there are enough threads on this already?

This proposal has long ranging impacts on Civil Aviation in the USA, and warrant more discussion since it also has serious financial and business implications as well.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
Mr. Grinstein, but I do think it would be polite if you spelt his name correctly.

Since the spell checker here won't pick it up, I'll have Mr. Harry Nolan's book handy the next time.

[Edited 2006-11-19 20:54:10]


DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4019 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4289 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 3):
Business 101 of the US society in the 21st century: there are no ethics and thee who is more narcissistic wins.

Something that became increasingly apparent from the 1980s onward in the USA (Enron being the mere tip of the iceberg).



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSBN580 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4285 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
Quoting SBN580 (Reply 1):This is interesting background. However, I do not know how the author you mention defines, "strong personality ethic," and "character ethic." They seem like both positive terms. Can you help us with the definitions?
http://www.stephencovey.com/index.html
I think this website can give you some good insight into the work of Dr. Covey since he is one of the top motivational and organizational guru's in the business world. Over the last twenty years or so there has been a considerable shift from the Dale Carnage "Character Ethic" to more of the "Personality Ethic" which is more manipulation based. Back in the early 1990s Dr. Covey published a book; The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". You can also fin more about it over on the Franklin/Covey Leadership site: http://www.franklincovey.com/fc/index.jsp?
Outside of government many of the people I deal with work for Franklin Covey, and virtually all of them say this is a classic case of manipulation in the short term.

Thanks. I knew I had heard of him. My personal favorite in this area has always been Tom Peters.



North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24963 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4269 times:
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Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
This proposal has long ranging impacts on Civil Aviation in the USA, and warrant more discussion since it also has serious financial and business implications as well.

FYI, there is a thread in "Site related" complaining about the sheer number of US/DL threads.

http://www1.airliners.net/discussions/site_related/read.main/56295/1/

Twenty two threads ( and more since) is a lot of discussion, I am puzzled you think it is not enough. I have defended the number of threads, but I am starting to wonder if I was wrong.

However, I still think you are missing the point about Mr. Grinstein. Which point (I think) is interesting, and has to do with his age and future. This may affect how he sees the bid, and how strongly he may fight it.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4266 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 3):
Business 101 of the US society in the 21st century: there are no ethics and thee who is more narcissistic wins.

Though the definition of ethical could be in question, ethically speaking, Parker would have given up on this merger/buy out/takeover when Grinstein told him he did not want to do it in the initial discussions over the past few months. If you want to talk ethics, Parker taking it to the press and creditors could bring in to question his ethics on this situation. Or is it, "the nice guy finishes last." He tried to be nice, now he must pull out the guns. Just depends on which side of the merger you are on. Ethically, a doctor should not kill someone agonizing in pain with bone cancer with an overdose of Morphine. Or should he?

Essentially, it is business. Parker sees something he wants and went after it. He questioned DL's possession of WMD. He is certain they are there.

Personality vs experience? Morphine vs suffering? WMD vs no WMD?

M


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4218 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
will it be Parker and his obviously strong personality ethic? Or will it be Grinstien and his longstanding character ethic?

I think if both of these personalities combine, the airline will definately be forced to be reckoned with. I for one, am all for this merger, and not just becasue I own a hefty chunk of stock!



Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlineThegooddoctor From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4177 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 8):
Though the definition of ethical could be in question, ethically speaking, Parker would have given up on this merger/buy out/takeover when Grinstein told him he did not want to do it in the initial discussions over the past few months.

I'm not sure your definition of "ethics" is well informed when it comes to this point. Taking over Delta is not morally good or bad based on the action itself. I would find it unethical if he bought the airline, then folded it up and fired all the employees. However, a takeover would not just be highly ethical, but philanthropic, if he took over the airline, turned it around to profitability and (in so doing) provided job stability for the employees of Delta.

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 8):
Ethically, a doctor should not kill someone agonizing in pain with bone cancer with an overdose of Morphine.

That is a HORRIBLE analogy. Do they teach any rules of rhetoric in schools anymore??

Now, since you elected to pick on medicine... here's a better analogy: You are a physician and have a hypoxic pediatric patient who is refusing treatment when he/she is admitted to the Emergency department (hint: this is the part that's analogous to Delta refusing US's overtures), but knowing that your patient can not think clearly for themselves at this point, you secure the permission of the patient's parents to treat the child (kinda like US going around the DL CEO to secure the blessing of the shareholders) and you intubate the patient, saving his/her life (analogous to the projected benefit of US buying DL).

(edited for spelling)

[Edited 2006-11-19 22:14:05]


The GoodDoctor
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4132 times:

I don't think the original author was discussing ethics as we're discussing it.

Ethos, maybe.

NS


User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4129 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
This merger was his first great success

Success? Call me when they are fully integrated. Until then they are still a mess after more than a year. Poor management on his part not making his line managers work towards integration.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
HP/US CEO Doug Parker has become the Wall Street adored darling of the airline industry and transportation sector over the past year and a half since he boldly propose that his carrier at the time America West (HP) acquire then USAir (US) and become USAirways group. In doing so he rescued a doomed soon to liquidate carrier in US and has forged ahead in creating a new carrier that is a force to be reckoned with along the eastern seaboard, southeast and to some extent the western USA.

Yada yada yada...do you work for the HP PR department or did you lift this one from an editorial somewhere?



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4089 times:

I think by their true definations "business" and "ethics" are no less than simple antonyms of each other.

[Edited 2006-11-19 22:50:48]

User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4086 times:

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 10):
not sure your definition of "ethics" is well informed when it comes to this point.

That's why I said, "Though the definition of ethical could be in question."

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 10):
have a hypoxic pediatric patient who is refusing treatment when he/she is admitted to the Emergency department

Though state laws vary, a child (unless married, pregnant or in the military) cannot refuse treatment. You do not need the parents permission to treat them. If it were an adult:

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 10):
knowing that your patient can not think clearly for themselves

you also have a legal duty to act.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 11):
I don't think the original author was discussing ethics as we're discussing it.

Ethos, maybe

I agree, I just did not have "ethos" in my vocabulary 10 minutes ago. That is why I called ethically in to question in my initial post. Thanks for my new word.

M


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4053 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 9):

I think if both of these personalities combine, the airline will definately be forced to be reckoned with. I for one, am all for this merger, and not just becasue I own a hefty chunk of stock!

Mr. Grinstein will retire after DL is out of BK.....the chances of them working "side-by-side" is slim to none...

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 12):
Success? Call me when they are fully integrated. Until then they are still a mess after more than a year. Poor management on his part not making his line managers work towards integration.

He took a carrier on the verge of liquidation up and running....he saved many jobs and he did a good job of running his other airline before the merger....that's success to me..



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineThegooddoctor From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4029 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 14):

Though state laws vary, a child (unless married, pregnant or in the military) cannot refuse treatment. You do not need the parents permission to treat them. If it were an adult:

...in my hypothetical situation, legal guardian(s) are present, permission to tx IS still secured. A minor cannot refuse treatment if they have no guardian present - but a parent may in most places.

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 14):
That's why I said, "Though the definition of ethical could be in question."

That's the point of my response - the definition is not in question - the way you interpret it is/was incorrect.

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 14):

you also have a legal duty to act.

Thanks - I must have slept through that day in Doctor School  Wink

I'm impressed that you didn't respond to my main assertion - that you unfairly portrayed US's takeover bid as the death-knell for Delta.



The GoodDoctor
User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4023 times:

Let's talk about ethics in the Parker v. Grinstein world:

Remember that there was a big fight in Congress on behalf of the airlines that have defined benefit pension plans (DL, AA, CO, NW), that Grinstein and Doug Steeneland began, to give them more time to amortize their debt. Parker and America West/USAir actively worked to block this, which left a sour taste in the mouths of many in the House and Senate. The thinking is, "why would someone actively work to block an airline from meeting their obligations to their employees?" Regardless, I would rather have the CEO that would fight to keep my pension, then the CEO that dumped all my pensions in a merger/bankruptcy, and then blocked another airline's efforts to meet their obligation to its employees.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7480 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3998 times:

You can argue this either way. You can say that DP is unethical for his actions in the takeover simply because DL doesnt want to be taken over, or you can say that he isnt. This is a subjective point and it really depends on which team you are rooting for.

I would also say that Geography will has a lot to do with this. If you are from Atlanta, you might not be for this merger and view it to be unethical because it will take alot from the city when the HQ is relocated to the desert. If you are from Charlotte or SLC you might also feel the same way because you know your airport will be all but stripped in favor of ATL and PHX. However if you are from the PHX, this merger is a great opprotunity for your city. This could make you decide that DP is really ethical for bringing lots to my city or he isnt because he striped my city (from an aviation stand point). Ethics in a business sense sometimes turns out to be "what can you do for me". That is a shame.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 16):
I'm impressed that you didn't respond to my main assertion - that you unfairly portrayed US's takeover bid as the death-knell for Delta.

I didn't realize that was you assertion. It was certainly not my intention to insinuate that US taking over would be DL's death. Just trying to put an ethical situation on the board. Guess I should have used abortion or a cyanotic child to better express my thoughts instead of something like murder.

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 16):
Thanks - I must have slept through that day in Doctor School

I do not doubt your medicolegal knowledge, merely responding to your analogy.

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 16):
That's the point of my response - the definition is not in question - the way you interpret it is/was incorrect.

I simply used it in the spirit of the thread starter and have admitted that I did not know the word ethos to replace ethics and make it more accurate.

M


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4019 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3908 times:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 17):
Parker and America West/USAir actively worked to block this, which left a sour taste in the mouths of many in the House and Senate. The thinking is, "why would someone actively work to block an airline from meeting their obligations to their employees?"

Very good point since Parker wants more than anything to wound both carriers further to pick over their supposed carcases since he believes in contraction under his terms more than anything. That said I think the airlines are long overdue to reform their retirement systems and transition from a defined benefit to a defined contribution just like the rest of the corporate and government (The US Government did this back in 1983).
Who would you trust your investment money with? Parker or Grinstein?



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
Who would you trust your investment money with? Parker or Grinstein?

Given that Parker blocked Delta's attempts to preserve their retirement funds for their employees, and given that USAir terminated their employees pensions and sent them to the PBGC where they are getting 8 cents on the dollar, are you really even asking this question?

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
Very good point since Parker wants more than anything to wound both carriers further to pick over their supposed carcases since he believes in contraction under his terms more than anything. That said I think the airlines are long overdue to reform their retirement systems and transition from a defined benefit to a defined contribution just like the rest of the corporate and government (The US Government did this back in 1983).

Ok...but the question was on ethcis.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
If you are from Charlotte or SLC you might also feel the same way because you know your airport will be all but stripped in favor of ATL and PHX.

SLC might not be scrapped as a lot of people are saying. In thew route map that US has on their site, it shoes LAS getting major reductions while SLC is still a hub. SLC has more access to cities in the North and Midwest that PHX does not.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
If you are from Atlanta, you might not be for this merger and view it to be unethical because it will take alot from the city when the HQ is relocated to the desert.

Too bad they dont want to rid themselves of the deplorable DL name though...

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
Who would you trust your investment money with? Parker or Grinstein?

I've been rolling the dice with Parker for 6 years now and he hasnt failed yet. In Grinsteins case, Ive bet on AirTran since 1997 or so.

[Edited 2006-11-20 01:09:12]


Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3855 times:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 21):
Ok...but the question was on ethcis.

The only ethic that matters is whose interests are really being served by this proposed merger?

If you can honestly say that customers and employees will benefit from this than it could be justifiable.

But if, as is more likely, only the shareholders and senior executives are going to benefit from the generous windfall from an inflated stock price, then you have to ask whether this is really the right thing to do.

Are either one working in the best interests of ALL their stakeholders (an honest question, not a sarcastic one)?

Charles, SJ

[Edited 2006-11-20 01:09:38]


The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7480 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3848 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 22):
Too bad they dont want to rid themselves of the deplorable DL name though...

That a no win situation. DL might not have the best name association, but US's is worse.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 22):
In thew route map that US has on their site, it shoes LAS getting major reductions while SLC is still a hub. SLC has more access to cities in the North and Midwest that PHX does not.

Ive seen that map, but im wondering: is it a hypothetical route map that the combined airline would use, or is just a route map that shows current service from both airlines? And would someone mind posting a link to it?



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
25 WesternA318 : If it showed current service, LAS wouldve shown hub status. Amen to that... I've had exactly the opposite in my travels.
26 Vega : Hostile Takeover Bid and Ethics are Oxymoronic.
27 Post contains images MiCorazonAzul : All I know is Doug Parker is a hottie....I'll merge with him anytime he wants.
28 Gigneil : No it wasn't. Hardly. These are massive multinational corporations. They don't have feelings. NS
29 Positiverate : Yes, it was. It was on the ETHICS of each CEO, and specifically their ETHICAL style. And I was poining out the question was originally on that topic.
30 Vega : Hardly? Your reply agrees with my quote.[Edited 2006-11-20 07:04:45]
31 Post contains links Diamond : Please continue all DL/US merger conversations in one of these 5 official threads: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation   http://www1.air
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