Slz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10381 times:
My feeling is LH will SPLIT their wide body order amongst 787 AND A350XWB, in a way similar to SQ, possibly with the first type ordered already next month (together with more A380s) and then the A350XWB a few months later
In fact, the whole idea of splitting is a good thing to do since it looks more and more like the optimal size of the 787 is going to end pretty much where the ideal size for the A350XWB will begin.
By splitting the order you get the best of both worlds, no overly stretched range compromised 787-10 and no shrunk and bony A350-800 and provided you need to have sufficiently big fleets of both planes (20+) I don't think it matters much to operate both types...
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10036 times:
Quoting Shinkai (Reply 2): Is Lufthansa not convinced by SQ's endorsement of the A350XWB?
I'm not terribly impressed by SQ's tendency to believe Airbus claims. I think SQ was being too clever for their own good again.
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1): By splitting the order you get the best of both worlds, no overly stretched range compromised 787-10 and no shrunk and bony A350-800 and provided you need to have sufficiently big fleets of both planes (20+) I don't think it matters much to operate both types...
I don't think there is any basis for your premise that the 787 will be overly stretched with the -10 model. The question continues to be whether Boeing will make modifications that give it additional range at cost of more R&D and what will power it. The longer Airbus takes to get the A350 to the market the less pressure Boeing has to push something out quickly.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 32240 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10002 times:
Quoting Shinkai (Reply 2): If Lufthansa gives Airbus until 2009/2010 to present the A350XWB, then I do not see any reason for the office in Toulouse to be rushing or panicking at the moment. Is Lufthansa not convinced by SQ's endorsement of the A350XWB?
SQ's "endorsement" right now is just a paper one, though admittedly that is about all it can be as Airbus has yet to offer the A350XWB for formal sale. However, I have not seen any reports here of SQ showing strong, to say nothing of unequivocal, statements of support that they will order the plane, regardless of it's final form. SQ is also keeping 20 787 options in-hand which gives them some protection should they decide, in the end, to not take the A350XWB. And yes, they are also keeping 20 A350XWB options in hand should they decide to commit in a larger way.
I still see LH choosing the 787-9 and/or 787-10 as an A343 replacement. That is the least efficient long-haul widebody in LH's fleet so it should be the first one to be replaced. I also expect a significant option placement, as well, to cover them on the A333 replacement if the A350XWB doesn't end up fitting that role for them.
2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9021 times:
Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 6): Which means Airbus should finalize the A350's specifications between May 2007 and August 2007 at the latest.
So, can/will LH order the A350 without finalised specifications?
Johnny, pertaining to your earlier thread on the LH WB order due in DEC, does this now mean that the order will be announced in stages with no decision on 787/350 until the 350 specs are finalised?
SSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1277 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6951 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 10): SQ's "endorsement" right now is just a paper one, though admittedly that is about all it can be as Airbus has yet to offer the A350XWB for formal sale.
Yes, I don't see how SQ's endorsement or intent to purchase an A/C that is not yet clearly defined nor even green-lighted would influence LH's decision.
But it seems, since the 350 is turning out to be a larger A/C, by enlarge, and with a different mission, that it will not be eclipsed by the 787 even though it's "late." They will not complete directly, it seems, but indirectly, like the 330 and 777 do now, as airlines research their future growth needs. Many airlines seem to want to wait for it, or at least until they find out what it's going to be, rather than order the 787. Innovations ilke the CFRP skin and possibly bleedless engines, I would imagine, are making the bird more competitive with 787 technology then earlier 350 proposals.
Kellmark From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 696 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5396 times:
I just find this whole A350XWB thing to be such an exercise of poor market analysis and underestimation of the competition.
By the time Airbus makes it actually competitive with the 787/777 products, if that ever happens, (since again they are using half measures, with a skin on top of a frame, instead of the whole fuselage being composite), Boeing will have moved another step or two beyond. They will not stand still.
Also, LH will make their own complete market/operational analysis of the products that they want to acquire. I don't think that whatever SQ has done will influence them in the least. But I do think that the jobs situation in Germany with Airbus, might have an influence.
I believe this plays directly into the hands of Boeing when it comes to courting SQ for more 787 and 777 orders and it may very well play into the hands of Boeing when courting LH. And this may improve the 773ERs chances a great deal, since it will be now at least a decade before they can get anything better. And adding a three-class 773ER fleet for the longest-haul missions (where the 773ER's fuel-burn advantages are most pronounced over the A346) this allows LH to keep their current and incoming A346s in two-class config and rotate them with the A343 fleet to meet high-season and low-season traffic demands.
I also believe this improves the chances of a 787-9 and/or 787-10 order to replace the A343 fleet and, frankly, puts the A333 fleet replacement in danger, as well, as it will be around a decade for LH to be able to get A359s...
Kellmark From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 696 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3891 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 18): Well Airbus appears to be ready to announce the "A350XWB Mk. II"
Let's see, the 787 flies next year, EIS in 2008. The Airbus product will be at least 4, maybe 5 or 6 years later and still not match it technologically.(Totally composite fuselage, bleedless engines). And it may be too large for the segment. I think it would be much better for Airbus to rethink this whole thing and make a product that is truly better in the long term. They are late anyway. In the meantime they are still selling the A330, which has had some good success. Put some new engines on the A330 in the meantime to remain in the market and go push the A330F as well. They are trying to do too much at once and trying to hit a constantly moving target. At some point they have to settle on a focused strategy that will work for them.
Probably because Boeing's management team are professional enough to know it would be unseemly to trash-talk the A380 program and they'd look like hypocrites if the 787 program is delayed even one day past schedule.
It is an agressive schedule, but Boeing has stated that they are on time and within the performance promises to the customer, although they are still trying to reduce weight further.
As far as not saying anything about A380 delays, Boeing is being very smart and professional about it. Their answer is to make a better product
and deliver it on time. That is worth a million words and they know it.
What Boeing is really doing here is not just produce a new revolutionary aircraft, but to re-invent the way it produces them as well. I think that is where the real problems with Airbus are. They have to re-invent themselves as well, and of course that is an extremely difficult thing to do in their situation of ownership, structure, politics, etc. It is going to be interesting how this turns out.
LHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3803 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 22): Probably because Boeing's management team are professional enough to know it would be unseemly to trash-talk the A380 program and they'd look like hypocrites if the 787 program is delayed even one day past schedule.
Most possible thats the reason...
: Then what? LH will give Airbus more time? Remember in 2003 when LH said they weren't interested in the 787 if Boeing equipped the aircraft with yoke
: No, Boeing has commented on them... several times including statements to the effect of: "We don't expect the 380 delays will impact us" and "We're s
: Yet can LH both wait a decade (or more) for the A350XWB to finally EIS and then hope that the A350XWB family is as efficient or more-so then the 787
: American fair play... I like this I don´t mind about A or B , I´m sure A and B play fair game , and I love B and A A/C...
: I wish I could understand this. 1) Is it commonality to LH's fleet or future fleet? 2) Is it political (German aerospace jobs on the line, pressure f
: It might have to do with Boeing understanding that Airbus doesn't really have a competing model in the 787/777 market, therefore they are less likely
: My guess? Airbus successfully "bluffed" companies to wait for the "better" A350 rather then order the 787. And those companies have now missed out on
: No airline goes Airbus , because it´s airbus , They´ll buy A if they present a good work on the 350XWB if it´s bad like the original 350 , no commi
: LH is a 100% private company. The government has no say in what LH should order or not. Definitely not. Whether LH orders from Airbus, Boeing, Embrae
: It doesn´t make sense to say this one time more , I´ve been reading a.net for 1 year and germans say this thousands times but they refuse to unders
: That's not true at all. Plenty of Airlines buy only Boeing or only Airbus for various strategic and economic reasons.
: Perhaps all of the above. As a side-note to #4, the travelers and local population rarely take interest in fleet planning. If there is ever a "revolt
: I agree that the travelling public doesn't really care who manufactures the A/C they are flying in, but I think the German press might be a catalyst