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Lufthansa Giving Airbus 3/4 Year To Present 350XWB  
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10190 times:

Mayrhuber has said to the Capital magazine that they will give Airbus 3/4 (three quarters of a year ,not 3 or 4 years ) year to present a new 350 version.

This means Airbus has until end of April to present it.

May we wait so long until a order comes or will they order the rest and in a half , 3/4 year order the 350 ?

Link , Sorry just in German :

http://www.capital.de/unternehmen/meldungen/694470.html

Edit : specify

[Edited 2006-11-19 20:20:33]

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10128 times:

My feeling is LH will SPLIT their wide body order amongst 787 AND A350XWB, in a way similar to SQ, possibly with the first type ordered already next month (together with more A380s) and then the A350XWB a few months later

In fact, the whole idea of splitting is a good thing to do since it looks more and more like the optimal size of the 787 is going to end pretty much where the ideal size for the A350XWB will begin.

By splitting the order you get the best of both worlds, no overly stretched range compromised 787-10 and no shrunk and bony A350-800 and provided you need to have sufficiently big fleets of both planes (20+) I don't think it matters much to operate both types...


User currently offlineShinkai From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10064 times:

If Lufthansa gives Airbus until 2009/2010 to present the A350XWB, then I do not see any reason for the office in Toulouse to be rushing or panicking at the moment.

Is Lufthansa not convinced by SQ's endorsement of the A350XWB?


User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10041 times:

@LHStarAlliance
"Mayrhuber has said to the Capital magazine that they will give Airbus 3/4 year to present a new 350 version."

-If you quote a german text only - pls translate in correctly! He did not say what YOU wrote!

He only said Airbus must FIX the specifications of the A350 in 6-9 month.
He did not say LH is waiting for a NEW A350-Version like you wrote!

All non-german-readers get a completely wrong picture of that interview after your translation!

Johnny


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10043 times:

Quoting Shinkai (Reply 2):
If Lufthansa gives Airbus until 2009/2010 to present the A350XWB, then I do not see any reason for the office in Toulouse to be rushing or panicking at the moment.

I think he means 'three quarters of a year' - 9 months, although end of April is only 6 months away on the outside.


User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10043 times:

@LHStarAlliance
"Mayrhuber has said to the Capital magazine that they will give Airbus 3/4 year to present a new 350 version."

-If you quote a german text only - pls translate in correctly! He did not say what YOU wrote!

He only said Airbus must FIX the specifications of the A350 in 6-9 month.
He did not say LH is waiting for a NEW A350-Version like you wrote!

All non-german-readers get a completely wrong picture of that interview after your translation!

Johnny


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6824 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9993 times:

Beim geplanten kleineren A350 müsse
Airbus allerdings in «einem halben, maximal dreiviertel Jahr» endlich
festlegen, mit welchen Spezifikationen das Flugzeug auf den Markt
komme.


Which means Airbus should finalize the A350's specifications between May 2007 and August 2007 at the latest.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9993 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 3):
If you quote a german text only - pls translate in correctly! He did not say what YOU wrote!

He only said Airbus must FIX the specifications of the A350 in 6-9 month.
He did not say LH is waiting for a NEW A350-Version like you wrote!

I´m sorry If anybody hasn´t understand something well , I was in hurry , will not happen again ...  Yeah sure
But LH must wait this 6-9 months to order the 350 , if theres no 350 prsented they can´t order it .


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9974 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 6):
Which means Airbus should finalize the A350's specifications between May 2007 and August 2007 at the latest.

You get it ! I wanted to say that but didn´t found the way to write it
 Big grin


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9783 times:

Quoting Shinkai (Reply 2):
Is Lufthansa not convinced by SQ's endorsement of the A350XWB?

I'm not terribly impressed by SQ's tendency to believe Airbus claims. I think SQ was being too clever for their own good again.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1):
By splitting the order you get the best of both worlds, no overly stretched range compromised 787-10 and no shrunk and bony A350-800 and provided you need to have sufficiently big fleets of both planes (20+) I don't think it matters much to operate both types...

I don't think there is any basis for your premise that the 787 will be overly stretched with the -10 model. The question continues to be whether Boeing will make modifications that give it additional range at cost of more R&D and what will power it. The longer Airbus takes to get the A350 to the market the less pressure Boeing has to push something out quickly.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31124 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9749 times:
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Quoting Shinkai (Reply 2):
If Lufthansa gives Airbus until 2009/2010 to present the A350XWB, then I do not see any reason for the office in Toulouse to be rushing or panicking at the moment. Is Lufthansa not convinced by SQ's endorsement of the A350XWB?

SQ's "endorsement" right now is just a paper one, though admittedly that is about all it can be as Airbus has yet to offer the A350XWB for formal sale. However, I have not seen any reports here of SQ showing strong, to say nothing of unequivocal, statements of support that they will order the plane, regardless of it's final form. SQ is also keeping 20 787 options in-hand which gives them some protection should they decide, in the end, to not take the A350XWB. And yes, they are also keeping 20 A350XWB options in hand should they decide to commit in a larger way.

I still see LH choosing the 787-9 and/or 787-10 as an A343 replacement. That is the least efficient long-haul widebody in LH's fleet so it should be the first one to be replaced. I also expect a significant option placement, as well, to cover them on the A333 replacement if the A350XWB doesn't end up fitting that role for them.


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9595 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 3):
He only said Airbus must FIX the specifications of the A350 in 6-9 month.
He did not say LH is waiting for a NEW A350-Version like you wrote!



Quoting Johnny (Reply 3):
All non-german-readers get a completely wrong picture of that interview after your translation!

But Airbus is presenting a new A350 - this one with a CFRP skin.

I guess you were unaware of that.


User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8768 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 6):
Which means Airbus should finalize the A350's specifications between May 2007 and August 2007 at the latest.

So, can/will LH order the A350 without finalised specifications?
Johnny, pertaining to your earlier thread on the LH WB order due in DEC, does this now mean that the order will be announced in stages with no decision on 787/350 until the 350 specs are finalised?


User currently offlineScaledesigns From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8496 times:

Aibus can take as long as they want.LH keeps pushing the time line
up for them anyway.LH will order the A350.No need to worry!



F1 Tommy
User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7304 times:

@ Khobar
"But Airbus is presenting a new A350 - this one with a CFRP skin.
I guess you were unaware of that."

No, i was not to be honest.

A CFRP-fuselage was one of the discussed options considered by AIRBUS.

But according my information only the fuselage-MATERIALS will change - so no NEW A350.Just other materials.


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7155 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 14):
But according my information only the fuselage-MATERIALS will change - so no NEW A350.Just other materials.

It's a rather major change.


User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6698 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
SQ's "endorsement" right now is just a paper one, though admittedly that is about all it can be as Airbus has yet to offer the A350XWB for formal sale.

Yes, I don't see how SQ's endorsement or intent to purchase an A/C that is not yet clearly defined nor even green-lighted would influence LH's decision.

But it seems, since the 350 is turning out to be a larger A/C, by enlarge, and with a different mission, that it will not be eclipsed by the 787 even though it's "late." They will not complete directly, it seems, but indirectly, like the 330 and 777 do now, as airlines research their future growth needs. Many airlines seem to want to wait for it, or at least until they find out what it's going to be, rather than order the 787. Innovations ilke the CFRP skin and possibly bleedless engines, I would imagine, are making the bird more competitive with 787 technology then earlier 350 proposals.



I come in peace
User currently offlineKellmark From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 693 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5143 times:

I just find this whole A350XWB thing to be such an exercise of poor market analysis and underestimation of the competition.

By the time Airbus makes it actually competitive with the 787/777 products, if that ever happens, (since again they are using half measures, with a skin on top of a frame, instead of the whole fuselage being composite), Boeing will have moved another step or two beyond. They will not stand still.

Also, LH will make their own complete market/operational analysis of the products that they want to acquire. I don't think that whatever SQ has done will influence them in the least. But I do think that the jobs situation in Germany with Airbus, might have an influence.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31124 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4504 times:
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Well Airbus appears to be ready to announce the "A350XWB Mk. II" - http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3105854/ - however, the EIS for the A359 is now mid-2013 at the earliest, the A3510 is now 2015, and I am guessing the A358 is 2015 or later.

I believe this plays directly into the hands of Boeing when it comes to courting SQ for more 787 and 777 orders and it may very well play into the hands of Boeing when courting LH. And this may improve the 773ERs chances a great deal, since it will be now at least a decade before they can get anything better. And adding a three-class 773ER fleet for the longest-haul missions (where the 773ER's fuel-burn advantages are most pronounced over the A346) this allows LH to keep their current and incoming A346s in two-class config and rotate them with the A343 fleet to meet high-season and low-season traffic demands.

I also believe this improves the chances of a 787-9 and/or 787-10 order to replace the A343 fleet and, frankly, puts the A333 fleet replacement in danger, as well, as it will be around a decade for LH to be able to get A359s...


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
Well Airbus appears to be ready to announce the "A350XWB Mk.

I hope so , wait until april would be terrible  banghead  I´m waiting for the order
since Juli...

Airbus management has done such a bad work in the last 3 years...

If they would had done it well there wouldn´t be 380 delays and no 350 "redesign" , I hope it improves ...  Yeah sure


User currently offlineKellmark From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 693 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3638 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
Well Airbus appears to be ready to announce the "A350XWB Mk. II"

Let's see, the 787 flies next year, EIS in 2008. The Airbus product will be at least 4, maybe 5 or 6 years later and still not match it technologically.(Totally composite fuselage, bleedless engines). And it may be too large for the segment. I think it would be much better for Airbus to rethink this whole thing and make a product that is truly better in the long term. They are late anyway. In the meantime they are still selling the A330, which has had some good success. Put some new engines on the A330 in the meantime to remain in the market and go push the A330F as well. They are trying to do too much at once and trying to hit a constantly moving target. At some point they have to settle on a focused strategy that will work for them.


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3608 times:

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 20):
Let's see, the 787 flies next year, EIS in 2008

... If it´s on time... suspicious B hasn´t commented 380 delays


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31124 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3578 times:
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Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 21):
... If it´s on time... suspicious B hasn´t commented 380 delays...

Probably because Boeing's management team are professional enough to know it would be unseemly to trash-talk the A380 program and they'd look like hypocrites if the 787 program is delayed even one day past schedule.


User currently offlineKellmark From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 693 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3558 times:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 21):
If it´s on time... suspicious B hasn´t commented 380 delays



It is an agressive schedule, but Boeing has stated that they are on time and within the performance promises to the customer, although they are still trying to reduce weight further.

As far as not saying anything about A380 delays, Boeing is being very smart and professional about it. Their answer is to make a better product
and deliver it on time. That is worth a million words and they know it.

What Boeing is really doing here is not just produce a new revolutionary aircraft, but to re-invent the way it produces them as well. I think that is where the real problems with Airbus are. They have to re-invent themselves as well, and of course that is an extremely difficult thing to do in their situation of ownership, structure, politics, etc. It is going to be interesting how this turns out.


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3550 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
Probably because Boeing's management team are professional enough to know it would be unseemly to trash-talk the A380 program and they'd look like hypocrites if the 787 program is delayed even one day past schedule.

Most possible thats the reason...


25 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Then what? LH will give Airbus more time? Remember in 2003 when LH said they weren't interested in the 787 if Boeing equipped the aircraft with yoke
26 Osiris30 : No, Boeing has commented on them... several times including statements to the effect of: "We don't expect the 380 delays will impact us" and "We're s
27 Stitch : Yet can LH both wait a decade (or more) for the A350XWB to finally EIS and then hope that the A350XWB family is as efficient or more-so then the 787
28 Post contains images LHStarAlliance : American fair play... I like this I don´t mind about A or B , I´m sure A and B play fair game , and I love B and A A/C...
29 SSTsomeday : I wish I could understand this. 1) Is it commonality to LH's fleet or future fleet? 2) Is it political (German aerospace jobs on the line, pressure f
30 Shenzhen : It might have to do with Boeing understanding that Airbus doesn't really have a competing model in the 787/777 market, therefore they are less likely
31 Post contains images Stitch : My guess? Airbus successfully "bluffed" companies to wait for the "better" A350 rather then order the 787. And those companies have now missed out on
32 LHStarAlliance : No airline goes Airbus , because it´s airbus , They´ll buy A if they present a good work on the 350XWB if it´s bad like the original 350 , no commi
33 LTU932 : LH is a 100% private company. The government has no say in what LH should order or not. Definitely not. Whether LH orders from Airbus, Boeing, Embrae
34 LHStarAlliance : It doesn´t make sense to say this one time more , I´ve been reading a.net for 1 year and germans say this thousands times but they refuse to unders
35 Osiris30 : That's not true at all. Plenty of Airlines buy only Boeing or only Airbus for various strategic and economic reasons.
36 DfwRevolution : Perhaps all of the above. As a side-note to #4, the travelers and local population rarely take interest in fleet planning. If there is ever a "revolt
37 SSTsomeday : I agree that the travelling public doesn't really care who manufactures the A/C they are flying in, but I think the German press might be a catalyst
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