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Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s  
User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1281 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 11632 times:

Hello I have a question regarding the 744´s from Virgin Atlantic.

To my knowledge their MTOW is 833,000Lbs or around 377 metric tonnes.

The max. for the 747-400 is 875,000Lbs but airlines can also buy a max. MTOW of only 850,000Lbs and 833,000Lbs.

My question is, if VS still have the 833,000Lbs MTOW or if they upgraded to a higher one?

Cheers Leo


Happiness is V1 in Lagos
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSevenHeavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1149 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 11591 times:

Hi

All of VS's B744 have a MTOW of 833,000lbs (377,842kg)

Regards



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11524 times:

What is the motivation for an airline to purchase a lower MTOW on an aircraft such a 744...


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24364 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11499 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 2):
What is the motivation for an airline to purchase a lower MTOW on an aircraft such a 744...

Very simple  dollarsign   dollarsign 

Besides the initial purchase cost, things such as landing/overflight fees are dependent on aircraft weight.

If one does not need the higher weights operationally, there really is no reason to purchase the added weight which will simply continue to be a needless financial burden.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineXXXX10 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 777 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11490 times:

I would imagine that if VS do not operate their 747-40s to the maximum range, there is no benefit in having the highest MTOW version.

The lighter version would use less fuel and have lower maintenance costs. I'm not sure if navigation and handling charges are also based on weight.

On the other end of the scale I beleive QF are always looking for the high groos weight versions as range is more important to them.


User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1281 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11467 times:

Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 1):

All of VS's B744 have a MTOW of 833,000lbs (377,842kg)

Thanks! thats just what i was looking for!

Quoting XXXX10 (Reply 4):
On the other end of the scale I beleive QF are always looking for the high groos weight versions as range is more important to them.

Correct.. QF have the max MTOW for all of their 744´s except for the 3 ex asiana and malaysian planes which have the second highest option.

Cheers Leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11437 times:

Aren't these all paper ratings anyway?

User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1281 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11403 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 6):
Aren't these all paper ratings anyway?

Correct Big grin there is no structural change made to the aircraft, for example delta airlines and their 777´s they just recently bought the highest MTOW from boeing and so their aircraft without any phsycal change now offer max. MTOW

Cheers Leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8094 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11400 times:
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Many Virgin 744 operate to the USA, California and the east coast are the two popular destinations. Since these 744 don't fly 14 hours flights, mostly 7 to JFK and 11 to LAX they only need the base 744 take off weight. Qantas to Australia has some 744's with nearly 900,000 pounds.

User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1281 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 11283 times:

So the planes dont have stab tanks or is that not removed?

Cheers Leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24364 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 11113 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 6):
Aren't these all paper ratings anyway?



Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 9):
So the planes dont have stab tanks or is that not removed?

Not necessarily only a paper issue.

While I am not familiar with the Virgin aircraft, several 744 operators including BA have what is know as "744 Lite's" which do have physical changes including no tail trim tanks and lightened landing gear over higher gross weight 744s.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 11022 times:

BA's 744 ''Lite's'' came with other modifications, for example there was no crew rest area and some other changes, however I think these have been modified to be the same as the rest of BA's 744s

User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4775 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 10905 times:

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 8):
Qantas to Australia has some 744's with nearly 900,000 pounds.

These are 744ER birds which are different again... they have a higher MTOW and are physically different from other 744



54 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1281 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 10740 times:

Can anyone tell me if hey have the trim tanks?

Cheers Leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 10688 times:

Is there any way an airline could get busted for using higher gross weights than they had purchased? Who would know?


Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineZKNBX From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 10668 times:

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 7):
Correct there is no structural change made to the aircraft, for example delta airlines and their 777´s they just recently bought the highest MTOW from boeing and so their aircraft without any phsycal change now offer max. MTOW

Thanks for that. Glad you made it clear. NEW QUESTION:

HKG-LHR is quite long... how does this affect VS yields with the lower max weights?


User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1281 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 10642 times:

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 15):
HKG-LHR is quite long... how does this affect VS yields with the lower max weights?

Not a Problem for VS, because they use the a346 on that flight and not the 744

Cheers Leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1281 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 10592 times:

looking at some VS cockpit shots i noticed that the VS 744's have 16 fuel pumps switches + 2 crossfeed pumps. So that is just as much as the max. MTOW 744's have. Meaning they do still have stab trim tanks.. but its just rare that they are needed to be fueled up.

Cheers leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 10479 times:

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 11):
BA's 744 ''Lite's'' came with other modifications, for example there was no crew rest area and some other changes, however I think these have been modified to be the same as the rest of BA's 744s

No, we still have the 747-436 Lite's, as well as the 747-436 MAXI (higher max TOW). I believe the Lite's modifications are only in the cabin, with crew-rest being installed. They still don't have HST fuel. (FYI - HST = Horizontal Stabilizer Tank, more commonly referred to as 'Stab tank')

We only use Stab Tank on fuel loads over 150,000KG. Then we have to split the fuel in accordance with the weight and balance manual, depending on the specific gravity of the fuel.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8626 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7788 times:

I believe VS 744's operate on trans atlantic runs b/c this is a perfect a/c for these runs. We, at MCO, see 3 a day (if i'm wrong, please correct me). I believe the A340 hasd taken ovber the runs to asia, australia, and far east destinations that used to be served by the 744. Can anyone at VS confirm this?

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineSevenHeavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1149 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7524 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 19):
I believe VS 744's operate on trans atlantic runs b/c this is a perfect a/c for these runs. We, at MCO, see 3 a day (if i'm wrong, please correct me). I believe the A340 hasd taken ovber the runs to asia, australia, and far east destinations that used to be served by the 744. Can anyone at VS confirm this?

VS currently operate all B744 across the atlantic to SFO, LAS, MIA, MCO, JFK and the caribbean. This changes with seasons and B744 also operate to LAX, BOS and EWR.

From Dec the B744 will be used for the peak season runs to JNB as well. this is about the most demanding route they operate on (although really only on the return leg) due to a relatively long block time, and performance restrictions out of JNB.

VS did briefly operate B744 to HKG during 2001/2002. This was slightly longer still, but even then it could (with almost no exceptions) be operated without any form of penalty.

The B744 has always proven to be ideal across the atlantic for VS due to its high capacity. The A346 are generally reserved for routes where their awesome cargo carrying capabilities offset the lower seating capacity. That said, VS has always been very flexible with route/aircraft combinations and constantly re-evaluates. In previous winters B744 have also been seen in LOS and CPT for that very reason.

regards



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineVScaptain From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7473 times:

I think that is the case, the only exception will be Maritious later next year.


AP321 - Oxford Aviation Academy
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24364 posts, RR: 47
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7290 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 14):
Is there any way an airline could get busted for using higher gross weights than they had purchased? Who would know?

For starters when people say its a "paper" change, this at the very least also includes software changes and also sometimes depending on the engine/airframe combo some engine tweaks also.

As far as flying at higher weights then purchased, besides this being illegal as each aircraft is certified by manufactures and national authorities for certain weights, with the world of digital data any such overweight operation would be quite obvious and leave a long trail.
Today's aircraft record and often transmit all types of parameters, from ops and maintenance ACARS messages, flight recorders, FOQA data, engine trending downloads, etc... which could all give such unauthorised overweight operations away in no time.

You'd be better trying to do with with and old non wired 707, then anything modern flying today.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7226 times:

Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 20):
The B744 has always proven to be ideal across the atlantic for VS due to its high capacity. The A346 are generally reserved for routes where their awesome cargo carrying capabilities offset the lower seating capacity. That said, VS has always been very flexible with route/aircraft combinations and constantly re-evaluates. In previous winters B744 have also been seen in LOS and CPT for that very reason.

Does VS bring the A346 to LAX on a seasonal basis or is it year round?




"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24364 posts, RR: 47
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6581 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
Does VS bring the A346 to LAX on a seasonal basis or is it year round?

Currently both daily flights are with the A346.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Thanks...
26 QantasA380 : So if the weights are just "paper" ratings, what's the point of having multiple versions??? Or is this somehow tied to the engine options available at
27 SevenHeavy : It also affects leasing costs. If you are going to fly around a B744 at its maximum certified weight limits your leasing company will charge you more
28 Richard28 : But VS7/8 normally reverts to a B744 for the summer season.
29 SevenHeavy : As it currently stands the B744 will not return to LAX. The A346 will continue to be double daily on VS007/008 VS023/024 through summer '07. One reas
30 JAM747 : Is there any chance that Virgin will order any 747-8I ? Maybe a small sub fleet to fit in between the A340 and A 380? Do they have any routes where th
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