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Official DL/US Merger Thread: General & Misc.  
User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5360 times:

This thread is for the discussion of all general subjects not covered by one of the other 'official' threads on the DL/US proposed merger. Example: "How will a combined company reorganize their hubs?"


==================================================

Due to the fact that there are 35 active threads on this topic, all previous ones are being locked and will be repaced with 'official' ones to help keep things consolidated and organized.


The following threads are being locked.

http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3101120/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3101594/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3101823/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3102040/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3102235/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3102338/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3102343/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3103401/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3103695/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3104869/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3105230/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099151/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099206/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099232/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099274/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099317/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099484/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099503/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099505/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099757/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100017/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100179/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100287/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100493/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100550/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100859/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3097793/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3097961/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3098201/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3098328/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3098984/


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27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThePalauan From Guam, joined Oct 2006, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5135 times:

Nice to partner, hard to merge.
But if they do it, airfares surge...


(Just a little stupid rhyme I had too much time to think about...)



You can take the boy out of the island, but not the island out of the boy!
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11362 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5075 times:

I generally and miscellaneously think this merger is a bad idea. US should have made a move on NW, and I'm guessing that going after DL instead means there was some sort of hangup with NW.

I also would love to see this topic discussed in its own thread: "Why DL, and not NW."



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5032 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 2):
US should have made a move on NW, and I'm guessing that going after DL instead means there was some sort of hangup with NW.

AA folks already kicking the tires at NWA.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4079 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5003 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 2):
I generally and miscellaneously think this merger is a bad idea.

I further agree that it is about as stupid a merger proposal as I've seen. I've reviewed the presentation by Doug Parker on the US site and all he did was further convince me how bad it could really become, and his idea of industry contraction just doesn't fly (no pun intended!), even though I agree some needs to happen. This is just too expensive a way of doing such.
NW would be a much better merger partner for US, even though I think the HP/US merger is far from reaching the maturation needed to pursue another one. DL's recovery in BK is now too advanced to be seriously considered as well as the anti-trust implications this proposal raises.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineMlsrar From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1417 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
AA folks already kicking the tires at NWA.

Where is the concrete evidence that this is the case?



I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4946 times:

Quoting Mlsrar (Reply 5):
Where is the concrete evidence that this is the case?

Several managers from AA have phoned folks at NWA...as well as at CO...and CO has been talking with UA and NW



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6477 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4934 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6):
Several managers from AA have phoned folks at NWA...as well as at CO...and CO has been talking with UA and NW

How do you know this? Have you tapped the phones? Give is the names at AA and the names at NW and tell us the results.


User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 970 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4837 times:

With credit to Mike Boyd of http://www.aviationplanning.com (edited for length)

The US Airways Offer For Delta
The Variety Show Is About To Begin
Small Communities: Get Ready For Less Air Service
We'll probably have to wait for the debut of the circus that is sure to develop from the US Airways hostile offer for Delta.
There'll be dancing bears in the form of Wall Street analysts, jumping through hoops in perfect obedience to their handlers. Magicians making data disappear and re-appear in reality-defying forms. Puppet acts, too, with politicians doing routines dictated by whichever way the dollars may go
Yup, Ed Sullivan would be proud. So, unfortunately, would P.T. Barnum. That's because no how much glitz, glitter, promises and paid PowerPoint presentations will be spit out to hype this deal, it's still a bad one for the consumer.[/b
This Deal Is Not Comparable To the US/HP Combination
Much will be made about how the America West acquisition of US Airways is the poster-child for this Delta deal. Nothing could be farther from reality. [b]The hostile takeover offer from US Airways is a full-blown, bona fide, overlay merger - one that, as admitted by US Airways, will result in less, not more.

On the other hand, the acquisition of the original US Airways by America West Holdings was essentially an asset-purchase, and one that represented very little overlap.
First, in 2005, America West Holdings bought a dying carrier that represented very little route or competitive overlap. That's 100% different from this current deal, where there is competitive overlap up the whazoo, particularly in smaller communities that have near zip chances of getting new competition should this merger go through.
Second, in the first US Airways deal, HP acquired a carrier that for all indications was heading smooth out of business… That, too is 100% the opposite of what this hostile take-over of Delta represents.
Finally, it needs to be kept in mind that despite admirable progress, the integration of HP and US is not yet complete. Adding Delta into the mix - well, draw your own conclusions regarding the immediate operational "efficiencies" this might bring.
Amateur-Act Myths.
Myth One: We Need Consolidation. Six months ago these folks were still claiming that the industry had "over-capacity." That being proven nonsense by high demand and 80% load factors, the tune has changed.
Supposedly, these folks now claim, there are too many seats out there to support a "healthy" airline industry, even if, at 80%+ load factors, everything is essentially full, and airlines are now pushing into the black.
More hypothetical nonsense. Not only is the system full, but for the first time in memory, comprehensive network airlines are well positioned for an economic downturn.
but Congress and the DOJ will need huge on-going doses of this mind-numbing nonsense if they are going to eventually believe it.
Myth Two: Mergers Will Make Airlines Stronger, Causing More Mergers. Don't buy into the hype that there are huge immediate operational synergies in this deal that will render the New Delta a competitive wonder.
The fleets are the economic equivalent of the Hatfields & McCoys. 777s and A-330s. 737s and A-320s.. To the creatures that inhabit some parts of the financial world, this means nothing. But when real-world realities of maintenance programs, training curriculums, parts inventories, not to mention union bid-and-bump issues, are considered, what this entity will represent on the day the merger is consummated will be one big wallowing marketing target for its competitors.
Myth Three: This Merger Won't Reduce Competition. this merger will decimate it.
Communities, politicians, and state AGs should be prepared this coming week for a Minnesota-denuding blizzard of paper "studies" and analyses, all purporting to represent that combining Delta and US Airways won't result in higher concentrations or in less competition.
Ray Charles could see through this one.
We'll start with this: when you remove one consumer option, competition is reduced
Enter The Clowns. Remember, there are tens of millions to be made on this deal, so it won't go away, and there will be lots more entertainers brought in...
Politicians. The full-court press will be made on Congress. The promises will be flowing like muscatel at a wino convention to "maintain service, increase service, upgrade service," whatever it takes. Rep. James Oberstar, D-MN is slated to be the congressional honcho overseeing airlines. He's so far made less than favorable comments about this deal,
Academics & "Coalitions" - Follow the money. In some cases we found that it was one of the merger partners that quietly paid for a supposed "independent institution" to do its "independent study.".
Yeahbutt, These Guys Are Smart. The argument will be made that the management team at US Airways is at the top of the airline game, are proven visionaries, and are incredibly good at what they do.
All of it, based on historical, provable and factual results, is entirely accurate. Maybe even an understatement, particularly when one considers the state of America West when Mr. Parker assumed CEO and where it is today in its present form.
But that doesn't mean that visionaries can't make mistakes, nor that visionaries can't find themselves needing or wanting to do deals they might not otherwise do, simply due emergence of perceived or real market "opportunities." The open question is whether a hostile takeover of Delta is an "opportunity" that fits the current US Airways.
Windows of Opportunity? Not If They're 40 Floors Up. Even the best management has been vulnerable to mistakes. Remember Bob Crandall's "Value Pricing?" When that fiasco finally played out, American was out somewhere north of $300 million in lost revenue.
Back in ancient airline history, in 1978, the whiz-kid in the business was Harding Lawrence of Braniff. He had taken what was essentially a small relatively unfocused carrier, and transformed it into a high-profile potential international juggernaut. Banks were throwing money at Braniff, based on the track record of Mr. Lawrence. In the late 70s, Braniff was minting money, with break-even load factors well under 50%.
Then came some huge mis-steps subsequent to deregulation - caused by this visionary concluding that Braniff just had to jump through a window of opportunity. Three years later, Harding was history, and a year after that, after a dalliance with a "messiah" CEO who completed flying the airline smooth into the ground, Braniff International was gone.
More recently was Independence Air. The management team there was one of the most respected in the industry, again, with a brilliant track record. It is hard to believe that, once this team found the I-Air plan didn't work, they would stick to it until the airline had blown through $300 million or more and ran out of money. But they also saw a window of opportunity that they just had to take advantage of.
This, unfortunately, could be the situation at US Airways - they feel this is an opportunity they can't pass up. It could be a dangerous one.
But after next Monday, the show will begin. Just remember, it's entertainment, and not necessarily a reality show.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4795 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 7):
Give is the names at AA and the names at NW and tell us the results.

If I did that, I'd end up in jail. All I can say to the AA folks..."Stay away and let nwa die like it wants to"



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineBDL2DCA From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 2):
I generally and miscellaneously think this merger is a bad idea.

I had an epiphany this morning. I don't think Doug P. really wants to merge US and DL - although I'm sure he'd be willing to do so for $8 bil. I think what he is trying to do is force up the price for Delta - get someone else to spend too much for Delta and open up the market for US.

I think the merger is plan B and that plan A is to force a Pan Am/National type merger.



146,319,320,321,333,343,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,744,752,762,763,772,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,F100,S80
User currently onlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4058 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4716 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 2):
I also would love to see this topic discussed in its own thread: "Why DL, and not NW."



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
NW would be a much better merger partner for US,

Labor problems are in the forefront here. A DL merger/buyout would in fact be simpler than the US/HP merger, in all likelihood. Fleet size is not the issue it's being made out to be. DL domestic routes also probably have a lot more potential for profit....likely more money to be made dominating the east coast business travel market than flying thin routes all over the Upper Midwest.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4690 times:
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Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
DL domestic routes also probably have a lot more potential for profit....likely more money to be made dominating the east coast business travel market than flying thin routes all over the Upper Midwest.

NW's domestic system has generally been more profitable precisely because of its dominance of routes all over the Midwest where LCC competition has been little to non-existent. NW's domestic operation in Q2 2006 generated the highest operating margin of any legacy carrier according to DOT statistics - at 13.7% compared to DL's 11.1% and US's 8.3%. In this area, NW even beat most LCCs, except for WN.


User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1765 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4595 times:
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Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 10):
I think what he is trying to do is force up the price for Delta

Don't forget, that even if there are no buyers for Delta at all, he will have succeeded in driving up their bankruptcy exit costs, as Delta will have to at least match and more likely beat the share offers US is offering to fend off the buyout.

This will result in a Delta post bankruptcy with higher CASMs, and result in a weaker competitor to US.

Given that, this might be more of a pre-emptive strike to fend off a future LCC-like competitor, as DL will have trimmed costs down to almost LCC-like levels.

- litz


User currently offlineSunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4528 times:

As a Former NW employee, and A current HP/US employee, I don't want NW as they have a bad attitude right now as they got the short end of the deal with management. They do not trust any managment right now.

I do belive that NW will be in a merger by the end of 2007, but with who I don't know my crystal ball is cooling off it has been working overtime.........



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4507 times:

If this bid fails, it will be interesting to view the reactions and future relationships between Parker and the various existing US Hubs. In far fetched speculation, I'd bet most would be very leary about investing in any future US expansion plans, via gate accesses, capital improvements, or general "favors", unless they had an iron clad agreement with Parker (already in place) that guarantees their airport would either be expanded or at least not downsized if the takeover succeeded. If CLT was smart, they'd be already doing what PHL did during the USAir demise and start making commitments to WN and others - just in case. A NW merge would have been a lot easier to figure out - logistically.

User currently offlineSurfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4477 times:

Quoting Litz (Reply 13):
Don't forget, that even if there are no buyers for Delta at all, he will have succeeded in driving up their bankruptcy exit costs, as Delta will have to at least match and more likely beat the share offers US is offering to fend off the buyout.

Delta by itself should be able to offer the creditors their money much quicker. They planned exiting in the spring or early summer. If aquired, the bankruptcy would have to be much longer to reject the leases and extract the cost savings they would need to achieve the so called synergies they talk about. Quicker money for the creditors is a big plus in this business.

Quoting Vega (Reply 15):
If this bid fails, it will be interesting to view the reactions and future relationships between Parker and the various existing US Hubs.

It will also be interesting to see the relationship between US/HP and DL when it fails.

[Edited 2006-11-21 01:07:33]

User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1765 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4411 times:
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Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 16):
It will also be interesting to see the relationship between US/HP and DL when it fails.

Is there (or has there been) any relationship outside of the usual interline ticket agreements?

They didn't have much overlap of routes prior to the US merger, now they're an arch competitor on the east coast, and they belong to different major airline alliance groups.

Don't see much in the way of a relationship there at all.

If anything this merger attempt is just gonna drive more of a wedge in the place of anything that possibly could have been.

- litz


User currently offlineSurfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

Quoting Litz (Reply 17):
Is there (or has there been) any relationship outside of the usual interline ticket agreements?

I was thinking more like if DL comes out with guns blazing.


User currently onlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4058 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4313 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 12):
NW's domestic system has generally been more profitable precisely because of its dominance of routes all over the Midwest where LCC competition has been little to non-existent.

NW also is not in the business of convincing anyone it is a low-fare carrier, while US has been steadily moving in that direction since the merger, one station at a time basically. If US took over those NW routes, the current high fares would only stick temporarily. NW also has the paid-in-full DC9 fleet flying most of those thin routes so of course it's not that hard to pull a profit.

Once the system was normalized, where would we see more high-revenue business passengers...along the ATL-CLT-DCA-PHL-LGA-BOS corridor or in places like GRR, GFK, MSN...?


User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=8954

here's a nice article regarding the CFO at DL's reponce to the merger... I just have to wonder how happy DL's creditors are with the way things are going if DL is in contact every day with them... just a thought..



Why do I fly???
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4211 times:
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Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 20):
... I just have to wonder how happy DL's creditors are with the way things are going if DL is in contact every day with them

DL is in contact with them every day because DL is currently in the last stages of putting together its BK exit plan as a standalone carrier. At this stage, the biggest focus is on discussions with the creditors about the shape of the Ch.11 exit, hence the heavily active discussions.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11362 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 17 hours ago) and read 3868 times:

This thread will never work. Too many topics.

Topics in that thread:
1) There shouldn't be a merger
2) Why US proposed a merger with DL and
not NW
3) Relationships between US and DL if
no merger,
4) and now, the combined airline's
paintjob.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3139 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 17 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

Refering to the now-locked thread, http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3118558/

First, the moderator is mistaken in shifting to this "General/Misc. topic". The "Best DL/US Livery" was nothing more than a fantasy of discussing imaginary liveries. The purpose of that discussion was purely for entertainment, not for the more serious discussions and debates within this existing thread. Furthermore, a topic of "General/Misc" invites parallel and completely unrelated discussion lines. I've agreed with the efficiency of categorization, but not in this case.

To comment on the livery, (link re-displayed here from Jmc1975's original post http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...rch/photo_search.php?id=00007942), I think it's a nice verbatim combination of the 2 existing liveries. It lacks controversy, and seems to be a fair blend. On the other hand, it retains too much of each airline. I think should this merger go through, which is irrelevant for this discussion, either Delta will use a very slighly modified livery based on one of its existing or recent versions, or there will be a completely new livery unrecognizable from anything previous.

Humble opinion only.

-Rampart


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4079 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

Quoting Thomasphoto60]Not feeling it.

Hopefully the feds will put a kibosh on this proposed merger.

Thomas
[/quote] from
[quote=Rampart
(Reply 23):
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3118558/

I agree and notice the plane is an Airbus A320/A319, which looks even more foreign with ANY DL logo on it. If Boeing doesn't put the kibosh on it first, the Feds will!



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
25 Post contains images AirframeAS : Why not create a 'Merger' forum then rather than having to lock up so many threads? US should NOT have made any moves on anybody until they FINISH th
26 HPAEAA : umm... he used the options he was granted at HP, in return for making 300k a year, imho and by comparing his company to others... way under valued...
27 AirframeAS : He is only looking after himself. This is a no brainer. No, after aquiring DL, he plans on shedding off aircraft which keeps people employed, when yo
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