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KLM And The A-310  
User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3825 times:

Does anyone know why KLM got rid of their A-310s?

I assume the B-767 replaced it, and did a better job serving KLM's markets and with lower cost.

Anyone out there with the answers?

Thanks!

Scalebuilder

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3812 times:

I think it had something to do with the range of the A310.

It didn't offer the range KL wanted, though it had the cargo capability it wasn't able to fly to places where KL wanted it to fly.

KL's A310 where all -200 and where ordered I THINK before the -300 was out.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 3599 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 1):
KL's A310 where all -200 and where ordered I THINK before the -300 was out.

Right. KLM operated up to 10 A310-200. KL was an early operator of this type (first a/c delivered in April 1983).
It was not, initially, planned to use them as a long haul airliner and were mainly used in the biggest European routes.
Rather than modifying them by adding a fuel tank so they could be used on long-haul (that's what AF did with its A312), KL preferred to get rid of them and replace them with longer ranger and bigger B767.

All KL's A312 went to Federal Express, except 2 of them : PH-AGE & PH-AGF went to MEA-Air Liban.

[Edited 2006-11-21 10:37:03]

User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5652 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 3595 times:

Anyone know who makes a model of it?


Next trip: SLC-DEN-SLC-PHX-JFK-LAX-SLC with my wife and oldest daughter. F9 to and from DEN, US to JFK, AA 321 and CR7
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5025 posts, RR: 44
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
All KL's A312 went to Federal Express, except 2 of them : PH-AGE & PH-AGF went to MEA-Air Liban.

And both of those later also went to FedEx.


User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
All KL's A312 went to Federal Express, except 2 of them : PH-AGE & PH-AGF went to MEA-Air Liban.

The two leased to MEA ended up to FX at the end of the lease.

PH-AGE

PH-AGF

Cheers.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3547 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 3):
Anyone know who makes a model of it?

I have a very nice Gemini Jets KLM A312 model. Very nice looking aircraft.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
KL preferred to get rid of them en replace them with longer ranger and bigger B767.

What's odd that KLM usually hangs on to their aircraft about 20 years, except this segment. The a312's were used about 10 years, as were the 763's. I wonder if the a332's will hold out longer than that.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3516 times:

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 5):
The two leased to MEA ended up to FX at the end of the lease.

Right.
MEA retired them in Sept & Oct. 1997. They went to FedEx as N443FE & N445FE.
Note also that MEA operated briefly during 7 months in 1996 a third KLM A312 : PH-AGC.


User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
Note also that MEA operated briefly during 7 months in 1996 a third KLM A312 : PH-AGC.

Indeed PH-AGC passed by MEA fleet, but from my sources, it was for more than seven months. The lease ran from January 1996 till March 1997.


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

From an ex-colleague who used to work for KLM Cargo at the time it happened I heard they were extremely unhappy about the poor stability and the requirement for extremely carefull ballancing of loads around the roll axis of the aircraft.
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows, and calculating the load distribution was a real pain (and often led to a lot of space going unused because they couldn't get it ballanced well enough otherwise).

In an all-cargo config that would be less of a problem as there'd be no pax moving left to right and upsetting your calculations so your margin is bigger.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
From an ex-colleague who used to work for KLM Cargo at the time it happened I heard they were extremely unhappy about the poor stability and the requirement for extremely carefull ballancing of loads around the roll axis of the aircraft.
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows, and calculating the load distribution was a real pain (and often led to a lot of space going unused because they couldn't get it ballanced well enough otherwise).

In an all-cargo config that would be less of a problem as there'd be no pax moving left to right and upsetting your calculations so your margin is bigger.

Very interesting. I can't imagine that the weight of pax can actually tip the aircraft to its main landing gear while on the ground.

Groetjes

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

Just curiosity, I had the pleasure to fly PH-AGA while Airbus use it to do some demo flights at SAO, operating at CGH airport as at that time GRU was under construction....

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3077 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows

Got to say I think this is a bit or artistic licence by your mate. I know the balance was sensitive, but I have major issues believing that it came dangerously close to crashing when all the pax moved to one side.

Cant see it personally - can anyone prove/disprove this?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

LH, SW, AF, KL, SN all ordered the 312 which was used for short-haul intra-EU flying as well as some regional (but not longhaul) service.

The aircraft's inability to operate longer hauls and to operate off-peak on EU routes limited its appeal.

By and large, the 312's at these carriers (including KL) were replaced by narrow-bodies.

Those EU carriers that also ordered the 313 in addition to the 312 kept their 313 fleets longer as they could be used on longhauls (SW, LH). KL did not operate the 313.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
From an ex-colleague who used to work for KLM Cargo at the time it happened I heard they were extremely unhappy about the poor stability and the requirement for extremely carefull ballancing of loads around the roll axis of the aircraft.
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows, and calculating the load distribution was a real pain (and often led to a lot of space going unused because they couldn't get it ballanced well enough otherwise).

That is pretty amazing to learn. Wouldn't a short coming like this when it comes to performance be caught during the testing and certification phase?

Maybe the A-310 is best suited to be a freighter. Does any one know if any A310-200's were actually converted to A-310-300 status as they also went through freighter conversion?

Thanks!

Scalebuilder


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2890 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows

Almost impossible, I'd say. If they'd all move to the back, yes, but left or right... They'd still be much too close to the centre of gravity to do anything that the ailerons couldn't compensate. And how often do all passengers move to one side on a European flight anyway?



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6464 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2617 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows, and calculating the load distribution was a real pain (and often led to a lot of space going unused because they couldn't get it ballanced well enough otherwise).

I seriously doubt that ever happened. I'll bet your your friend cannot give any details. At least you aren't claiming that Air France did it.


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