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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes  
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10544 times:

Holy sh..

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nach...ichten-2006-11/artikel-7343608.asp

Will the Russian government allow this? And what will they do with 45 long-haul aircraft? Well, the Russian economy is booming.

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10516 times:

I think the Plan to purchase 22 787's and 22 A350's has allready been made by aeroflot and is up for approval by the board therefore the widebody order was largely expected !!

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5762 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10493 times:

Quite vague. The A320s aren't a surprise. They could have increased frequencies throughout the CIS, Europe, and into Asia. I won't be surprised if the 45 long hauls are 22 787s and 22 A350 (I know it doesn't add up to 45 so maybe they order 44 long haul) as had been discussed previously.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineBoogyJay From France, joined May 2005, 490 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10464 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
22 787s and 22 A350 (I know it doesn't add up to 45

No it's in conformity with what the original quote states :

[QUOTE]
'We intend to acquire 40-45 long-haul planes,' Okulov told Russia's Ria Novosti in Vienna.
[/UNQUOTE]


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10409 times:
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Yup. As SU already flies Airbus narrowbodies, choosing them again is logical.

45 widebodies would allow SU to order 22 787s and then LoI 22 A350XWBs. If SU needs planes before the A350XWB is available, SU can add more 787s and/or 777s, then SU can decide for the remaining widebodies to continue with Boeing or add A350XWBs once they become available. And even if they do go all-Boeing for the widebodies, they still keep the EU happy thanks to the large narrowbody order (plus any future narrowbody add-ons).


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10221 times:

Who dont SU go for more Il 96-300 in the w-body section?

Wooow, 45 A32X! Way to go SU...

Micke//  bigthumbsup 



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10125 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
Wooow, 45 A32X! Way to go SU...

They would have to pull their sleaves up and really work on this because the A320 might not be available in the 2020-2030 timeframe  Wink


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10083 times:

I hope they consider getting some A318's as there are a lot of routes it can be deployed on practically in the SU network.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9899 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
Who dont SU go for more Il 96-300 in the w-body section?

Good idea.  Wink

After they let the 787 options expire and after that state-owned bank from Russia bought the 5% stake of EADS - I can see them going only for the A350, with some A330s for the interim period.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9813 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 7):
I hope they consider getting some A318's as there are a lot of routes it can be deployed on practically in the SU network.

I 100% agree.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9799 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 8):
After they let the 787 options expire and after that state-owned bank from Russia bought the 5% stake of EADS - I can see them going only for the A350, with some A330s for the interim period

Boeing extended the offer for the 787 to December 1, after a WTO agreement between the US and Russia was reached.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9770 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
Who dont SU go for more Il 96-300 in the w-body section?

They already burn more fuel than a 763ER, while not having added capabilities. So you can imagine, compared to the 787 or A350, they would be at a huge disadvantage.


The narrowbody order is hardly surprising, they have some 27 Tu-154Ms to be replaced. They already stated before that they want more A32Ss.



A342



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2191 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9571 times:
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Will they all be A320-200 or will they split the order between A319, A320 and A321? If they split between Toulouse and Finkenwerder they may get them twice as fast...


Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9459 times:

Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
Will the Russian government allow this? And what will they do with 45 long-haul aircraft? Well, the Russian economy is booming.

Eventually these A320s will not all be based in Moscow.

Some will be based in Arkhangelsk (Aeroflot-Nord), Rostov (Aeroflot-Don), Khabarovsk (Dalavia) and Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk (SAT).

Especially the latter 2 signed deal with Aeroflot to cooperate which eventually workings towards a merger.

[Edited 2006-11-21 21:58:04]

User currently offlineImiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8249 times:

If SU was to go for the 787 and A350 combination, what do you think their engine selection would be?

User currently offlineIrobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7877 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
Who dont SU go for more Il 96-300 in the w-body section?

I think they've been waiting a while for a -400 version of the IL96, but A342 might know a bit more about that than I. I would hope that it would be more fuel efficient but we were talking about max capacity range figures from Ilyushin and they're a touch confusing... Hate to say it, but they might be better off putting in for the A350 or 787 and taking A340s or 777s or something in the mean time...

(I can't believe i just suggested they take 777s in the mean time...!  Wink I think the A340 would look fantastic in Aeroflot colors though, just as the IL96 does.)


User currently offlineTancrede From Finland, joined May 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 6499 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
And even if they do go all-Boeing for the widebodies, they still keep the EU happy thanks to the large narrowbody order (plus any future narrowbody add-ons).

Sorry, but I do not understand fully this remark. Are you funny or sarcastic?


User currently offlineF4N From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6288 times:

Tancrede:

I don't believe he is being either. What he is suggesting is that Russians, like the Chinese, tend to do business with both frame-makers in order to be able to leverage purchases like large a/c to their advantage when dealing with both the EU and the US. Since they already have a fleet of A320's, it makes sense to buy more. They can go Boeing for the larger a/c.

Nothing unusual about it.

F4N


User currently offlineFYODOR From Russia, joined May 2005, 661 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6055 times:
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Well, there is no any 'permission' requested for non-Russian planes buying. The problem is the custom fee which is 20% of the plane plus VAT 18%. So just add 38% to the price. But you can be granted by the exception from the rules and Government can allow you not to pay 20%. Such privilage only AFLT and TSO have. For AFLT there is also the problem that state owns 51% of it and for deals like that decision of the Board of Direcors is needed. But you need to consider that Russian Government is not monolite mechanism. There are a lot of different ideas inside - supporting and not AFLT management plans.

As about Il-96 - it was compromise decision - AFLT got 20%-fee out for the promise to by Il-96. They still should buy 6 Il-96 but AFLT resist it as strong as they can. On the other hand Ministry for Industry and Energy is the one of the centers of lobbists activity for Il-96.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6047 times:
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Quoting Tancrede (Reply 16):
Sorry, but I do not understand fully this remark. Are you funny or sarcastic?

Neither.

SU's principles are on record that they want the 787. However, the Russian Government, which must approve and/or finance the order, has not allowed them to do so for "quid pro quo" reasons.

The "quid pro quo" they want(ed) from the USA was membership in the WTO.

The "quid pro quo" they want from the EU is (at least) a voting stake in EADS.

The USA has completed their side of the bargain, and allowed Russia to enter the WTO. Russia is now kind of "on the hook" to reciprocate with a 22 frame 787 order. However, this then doesn't give Russia anything to hold over the EU's head. Hence, the recent rumors - and now confirmation - that SU would order 45 planes. That way, Boeing and SU get their 22 787s and Russia can continue to dangle an equal order for A350XWBs in front of the EU.

That being said, with the A350XWB now being delayed to the middle of the 2010's (at the earliest), depending on how SU's capacity needs shake out, the A350XWB may not be available to meet them. In such a case, SU may be forced to take additional 787 frames. And in an extreme case, the A350XWB may be so delayed that it is not available, period, when SU needs them.

In such a case, SU still has a 45-frame A320 family order "on the books", in addition to all the A320 family planes they have already bought and any additional A320 family frames they may need beyond this latest 45. So even if Airbus never sells SU an A350XWB, Airbus has still received strong financial support from SU through the sale of narrowbodies. And that strong financial support can be (and will be) leveraged by the Russian government when they desire something from the EU.

That was the point of my statement.  Smile


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5324 times:

@ Stitch

So this is a win-win situation for SU, right?

Micke//  Wink



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5244 times:

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 15):
I think they've been waiting a while for a -400 version of the IL96, but A342 might know a bit more about that than I.

Thank you.  Wink

I don't think they want the -400. It can carry its maximum payload only 5600km. For SU, this means: From SVO, its range covers India, Europe and the Middle East. But they also want to fly the aircraft to East Asia, and so, if they want additional IL-96s, then they'll chose the -300.
Also, the phase-out of the 777 shows they don't need very large aircraft.

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 15):
Hate to say it, but they might be better off putting in for the A350 or 787

I agree.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2290 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5209 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 11):
Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
Who dont SU go for more Il 96-300 in the w-body section?

They already burn more fuel than a 763ER,

... and spend more time in maintenance and less time in the air.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
That being said, with the A350XWB now being delayed to the middle of the 2010's (at the earliest), depending on how SU's capacity needs shake out, the A350XWB may not be available to meet them. In such a case, SU may be forced to take additional 787 frames.

Or they could lease A330s for an interim period (SU really doesn't need the range of the A340).

Quoting A342 (Reply 21):
Also, the phase-out of the 777 shows they don't need very large aircraft.

Aeroflot has actually for many years been flying the IL86 with more seats than a 777. The 777 was never the biggest airplane in Aeroflot's fleet, but it was the only airplane that Aeroflot had only two copies of. At that time, Aeroflot operated a long-haul fleet of 772, 763, A310, IL96, and IL62. They saved a lot of money by simplifying the fleet to only 763s and IL96s.

Aeroflot really needs large aircraft today. You have to remember that Aeroflot is the largest airline based in the biggest city in Europe, where most passengers are not spoiled by being able to choose between multiple departures every day. Transaero flies 747s today, and I believe that they have great success. If Transaero can fill a 747, then Aeroflot (with a much larger network) should be able to fill even an A380.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5150 times:
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Quoting Solnabo (Reply 20):
So this is a win-win situation for SU, right?

I see it as such. SU would get the widebodies they want - the 787 - and continue to get the narrowbodies they want - the A320 family.

And once the A350XWB becomes available, they could add a modern large widebody to their fleet and 22 frames would take care of the scheduling issues they had with only 2 777s.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
Or they could lease A330s for an interim period (SU really doesn't need the range of the A340).

True.

Quoting A342 (Reply 21):
Also, the phase-out of the 777 shows they don't need very large aircraft.

They very much need them. As RedChili notes above me, two planes were not enough for SU to efficiently schedule with.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4879 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
Aeroflot has actually for many years been flying the IL86 with more seats than a 777. The 777 was never the biggest airplane in Aeroflot's fleet, but it was the only airplane that Aeroflot had only two copies of. At that time, Aeroflot operated a long-haul fleet of 772, 763, A310, IL96, and IL62. They saved a lot of money by simplifying the fleet to only 763s and IL96s.

Yes, but remember, the IL-86 was for shorter range holiday charters and domestic flights. BTW, SU still has the IL-62, flying them to LAD and GDX, these are at least the destinations I know of.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
Aeroflot really needs large aircraft today. You have to remember that Aeroflot is the largest airline based in the biggest city in Europe, where most passengers are not spoiled by being able to choose between multiple departures every day. Transaero flies 747s today, and I believe that they have great success. If Transaero can fill a 747, then Aeroflot (with a much larger network) should be able to fill even an A380.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
They very much need them.

OK, point taken, but the IL-96-400 is the wrong aircraft.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
25 Post contains images Stitch : No argument there. SU is much better off with the 772ER/772LR if they need it "now" or the 787-10 or A350XWB-900 if they need it "later".
26 Titch : Are you sure about this? There are plenty of IL-62's rotting away at various locations in full Aeroflot colours, but as far as I'm aware, SU hasn't o
27 Post contains links A342 : Yes. Just have a look at the SVO-LAD and SVO-GDX schedules at Amadeus. www.amadeus.net
28 RedChili : Most IL86 routes were between two and five hours long, although once I was on an almost empty IL86 flying nonstop SVO-KHV (I was so surprised, I didn
29 Post contains images EI321 : Oh sh_t, you have just started yet another SU roumer! AKAIK they do actually still own one or two IL62 frames but they dont fly often. I think the A3
30 RedChili : It was never my intention to start a rumor about Aeroflot getting the A380. Personally, I believe that they will not get that aircraft, but that's no
31 Post contains images FYODOR : Well, it will be inetersting to see the development of contract with Airbus in light of Russia-EU wrecked summit in Finland. Can it be the point for d
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