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A380 Problems Solved, 17% Better Than 747-8.  
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20182 times:

Sources:

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/11/24/10084827.html

In German:

http://www.aero.de/news.php?varnewsid=1697

Main points:

Airbus claims to have solved the wiring issue, new A380 delivery dates will be met. (OK, but we have heard that before.) The delegation of engineers from EK sent to TLS was very happy with what they saw.

26 A380s have been assembled so far. (Without the cabin, I suppose).

Performance is better than expected, the 747-8 will be beaten in fuel efficiency by 17%. (How do they know?)

The A380 has the quietest cabin ever.

82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 20058 times:

17 Percent? That is impossible!

If they would have said 17percent/seat over the B744 i would agree without any doubts.

Johnny


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 20035 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 2):
17 Percent? That is impossible!

If they would have said 17percent/seat over the B744 i would agree without any doubts.

I supposed that's what they mean. Given that the A380 is much larger, a per-seat comparison is the only one that makes sense.

But anyway, the 747-8 only exists on the paper, it is not even decided whether it will be 74 or 76 meters long, so this prediction is not more than hot air.


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 20015 times:

Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
Performance is better than expected, the 747-8 will be beaten in fuel efficiency by 17%

Wow! That´s much , a good reason to order the 380 instead of the 748...

The 380 is a great A/C , best technology , just production problems have produced delays ... So we will see many more orders .

I say you in 3-4 years the 380 will be a best seller  Big grin

But I also hope for some 748I orders , the 747 can´t disappear from sky ...


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 20016 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 2):
17 Percent? That is impossible! If they would have said 17percent/seat over the B744 i would agree without any doubts.

Well since Keith Stonestreet specificly mentioned fuel efficiency (i.e what you do with the fuel) and not fuel consumption like you seem to have read, I take it he is talking on a 'per seat' basis.


User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 20004 times:

@ Slz396

I repeat it: 17percent better than the B748I is impossible!

Johnny


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19924 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 8):
I repeat it: 17percent better than the B748I is impossible!

Only due to the fact that the 748I consumes no fuel - it being a paper aircraft. Perhaps we should wait until we have more solid data to comment on, rather than early predictions.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19902 times:

Its a miracle, praise the lord.....

Lets see some real numbers from Airbus itself before we get overexcited.....one has to doubt a PR piece coming out of Dubai, the home of EK, the airline with the most A380s on order.

I have no doubt that Airbus will get the A380 right and fix its problems....but these overoptimistic numbers and other nonsense have got to stop if anyone is going to take any of this seriously..


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19840 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 8):
I repeat it: 17percent better than the B748I is impossible!

are you refering to the title then, because otherwise I've lost you...

I agree it should be amended to: A380 wiring problems solved, 17% more fuel efficient than 748i.


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19839 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
one has to doubt a PR piece coming out of Dubai, the home of EK, the airline with the most A380s on order.

It´s possible PR , but I don´t think such a big&important company is lying , they have too much trouble behind to start doing stupid things... and they know this...


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19786 times:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 12):
It´s possible PR , but I don´t think such a big&important company is lying

I am impressed with your faith in Airbus.......after everything that has occured with the A380 program. I am a skeptic and am looking forward to seeing some hard numbers. The 17% figure is an impressive one, but what exactly does it mean? We have no idea how the 17% number was computed, thus, its nothing more than ""Spin"" and PR at the point.


User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19760 times:

Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):

Performance is better than expected, the 747-8 will be beaten in fuel efficiency by 17%

What a joke... You think Airbus would learn to shut-up about the A380 and all it's issues until the damn thing is flying revenue flights. I doubt seriously 17% overall.

Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
The A380 has the quietest cabin ever.

Again how do they know this? More hot air!

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 6):
So we will see many more orders .

Doubtful, A380 is a nitch market plane and it's market size is very small.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 19640 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
The 17% figure is an impressive one.

Assuming it is indeed 17% better on fuel per seat as I suppose it is (what else could 'fuel efficiency' mean?), I don't think it is that of a spectacular number.

Let's just do a rough evaluation of the numbers, to check them off :

The A380 was supposed to beat the 747-400 by 20% on a fuel/seat basis from the start.

All information from the engine manufacturers and Airbus has constantly hinted at a lower than expected fuel burn for the A380, which -although it has always been questioned as being 'unclear and unspecific information' can lead us to the idea the A380's real improvement over the 747-400 in fuel burn per seat is somewhere around 21 or 22%.

Now, given the fact we are now comparing not to the 747-400 but the 747-8, this should be reduced by whatever margin of improvement the 748 brings.

I suppose Airbus -quite fairly- uses a pax configuration for the 747-8 which is based on the same comfort levels for the individual pax as for their A380 (meaning less than the high pax numbers Boeing uses for their 748), so the real improvement from the 748 over the 744 could be as low as 5%, which is in line with what re-engining a plane normally brings as step forward....


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 19619 times:

Sometimes I really like hot air  Wink Just let 17% be the right number though I doubt it ´cus 748i is a paper plane and B are working hard to get 787 ready 2008..

Is it really 26 A380 assembled? Yikees...

Micke//  wave 



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 19468 times:

I guess Boeing will need to update their brochure where they claim 14% better CASM.

http://www.boeing.com/randy/pdf/747AdvCard.pdf


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 19385 times:

Aircraft manufacturer in a releasing doctored figures shocker!  Wow!

User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 19296 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 14):
Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
The A380 has the quietest cabin ever.

Again how do they know this? More hot air!

Could they perhaps have measured the noise level in the cabin and compared it to that of other aircraft?


User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 19219 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
has to doubt a PR piece coming out of Dubai, the home of EK

Well after their PR departments had lots to say when all was not rosy, I then take this to be good news.

Quoting Art (Reply 20):
Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 14):
Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
The A380 has the quietest cabin ever.

Again how do they know this? More hot air!

Could they perhaps have measured the noise level in the cabin and compared it to that of other aircraft?

Quite! It's not rocket science.



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineERAUgrad02 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 19156 times:

I wanna wait and read boeings response to all of this. I hope someone orders it soon. The 767 continues to recieve orders why cant a the 747? I'm waiting though. Does anyone have concrete info on some 747-8i potential orders? make a seperate thread for us to read since this is an a380 thread and we should respect it as such.


Desmond MacRae in ILM
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19113 times:

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 22):
why cant a the 747

777-300ER is why - in my opinion. Etihad operate it at 378pax, and EK around 410-420pax I believe. Why would one need a 747, with these sort of figures?



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19113 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 14):
Again how do they know this? More hot air!

You see, they have these nifty little things called decibel meters...

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15):
The A380 was supposed to beat the 747-400 by 20% on a fuel/seat basis from the start.

Actually, it was supposed to be 'between 15 and 20%' more fuel efficient.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 17):
It's the only product they have in the A380 family that's working better than expected.

I'm sure you will enlighten us, Mr. Wenting, as to which are the other products in the A380 family that are, as you appear to be insinuating, not performing 'better than expected'...

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 16):
Is it really 26 A380 assembled? Yikees...

I doubt it, it seems to have been some misquote by gulfnews. The German article mentions that they are currently working on 26 planes, which seems a lot more plausible. If indeed 26 had been assembled, Toulouse would have A380s lying around all over the place, and that isn't the case.

[Edited 2006-11-25 23:12:36]

User currently offlineGbfra From Germany, joined Sep 2006, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19017 times:

I could imagine that Airbus has learned from airlines what Boeing is offering for the B748.

Even if the B748 doesn't exist yet Boeing is trying hard to sell the plane to various airlines. In this case Boeing has to deliver data for the B748 to these airlines.

The fact that Boeing hasn't published recent details about the B748 doesn't mean that such data do not exist for insiders.



The fundamental things apply as time goes by
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 20008 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 14):
Doubtful, A380 is a nitch market plane and it's market size is very small.

this is what boeing says...


User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19994 times:

Boeings claim of 20% lower trip costs make sense to me. Smaller craft with engines even more advanced than those on the 380. In the configuration which Qantas and Singapore are using, they will have about 20% more seats than 748i.

I know you can't add % but we can get in the correct ballpark, and thats all we've got, but in rough terms seat mile costs of the 380 and 748 should be fairly similar, which really is bad considering the 380 was designed 40 years after the 747.

The 380 will really shine when the airlines jam people in like Sardines in a can, and they will, and be no more comfortable than any other craft, but then it has a chance to sell.

I agree about the foot in mouth.

Ruscoe


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19530 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 27):
Boeings claim of 20% lower trip costs make sense to me.

Of course it does! it is a smaller plane. Which is why you need to look on a per seat basis...

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 27):
The 380 will really shine when the airlines jam people in like Sardines in a can, and they will, and be no more comfortable than any other craft, but then it has a chance to sell.

I think that when you compare the seat count of the 748 vs that of the A380 and have a look at the available floor space of both planes, you'll soon see which of the 2 is cramming pax in like sardines to prop up its seat count in an ultimate effort to get better CASM.

Fact is that when you want similar comfort levels on the 748 as on the A380 (a given number of seats per square meter), the seat count of the 748i needs to be significantly reduced from what Boeing constantly uses to make their calculations. I think this is what was done here by Airbus and in that case you indeed end up with a number like the one we have seen quoted in the article. I have a strong feeling it is also the reason why the 748I has been turned down by QF and SQ over more A380s for instance: unless the 748I is flown in some sort of cattle class, it simply can't match the fuel efficiency of the A380.


25 Dw747400 : Just like 17% is what Airbus says.
26 Post contains links Leelaw : Doubtful, more like 13 or 14 airframes assembled at this point. See also: http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3109918/ h
27 Rbgso : Well, it's been a hell of a month for Airbus. The A380 suddenly dropped 5.5 tons almost overnight, all A380 wiring issues have been solved, 26 A380 fr
28 Ruscoe : Yes, that is why I mentioned that the 380 carries 20% more and thus seat mole costs are likely to be similar. This is actually a minus for the 380, m
29 Thorben : More comfort for the passengers also means that they can pay a higher price. If you give the same space per pax in a 747-8, the pax figure would be s
30 Ncelhr : Like everybody says, I'm doubtful that many have been assembled. They'd better hire a few more electricians to get all that wiring installed. Blimey!
31 Dutchjet : As they say, when something sounds too good to be true, it usually is........some posters above stated that they want to hear what Boeing has to say
32 Thorben : Concerning those 26 planes. The German source says Airbus is "working on 26 planes", which seems more realistic. However, 5 are already flying, some m
33 Leelaw : Actually, eight aircraft have flown 001, 002, 003, 004, 005, 006, 007, & 009, although only 001, 002, 004, & 009 have been flying on a regular basis
34 Post contains images Zkpilot : nice one I do hope that the Whalejet is successful, as much as I prefer Boeing to Airbus when it comes to longhaul the aviation world would be boring
35 JayinKitsap : Wow, back when the first delay hit it was like 15 including the structural test frame. So they built 11 additional without wiring and will take anoth
36 Glideslope : Yes. The same old Airbus PR BS. Let's see this thing EIS after 24 months. I'd have a had time believeing that today was 06/25/11 if Airbus was the so
37 PITrules : Actually, the article states: "'Our engineers have returned from Toulouse. We are evaluating the audit information internally,' an Emirates spokesper
38 Post contains images We're Nuts : Is that 17% better per available seat/mile (BASM)?
39 Shenzhen : In September, Airbus hinted at a further delay in delivery of the A380 of up to one year citing problems with wiring. "We had to re-do the cabling in
40 BoeingFever777 : Yeah... since the market speaks for itself and the A380 is selling faster than ever right? And why 3-4 carriers are looking to cancel there A380 orde
41 BoeingBus : This is great news for Airbus. They need some right now. Look, Airbus needs the A380 more than Boeing needs its 748I. So hats off to Airbus for pullin
42 Post contains images Glideslope : We have been hoping for honestly for the last 3 years. Time will tell. Airbus has to increase 320 production to offset the 380 fiasco.This ramping-up
43 Tootallsd : And if they do exist -- why would it take 2+ years to deliver them to customers and please don't tell me about unexpected levels of customization.
44 N908AW : Yes. Don't try to compare the present to the future. The future might not even happen. Didn't people say that 3 or 4 years ago?
45 Jfk777 : I will believe it when I see it. The A380 can claim all these efficiencies but its still teh SUV of airplanes.
46 SparkingWave : The A380 is two years late. Right now, it's not 17% better than anything. Perhaps they meant that the airlines that ordered it would get a 17% ADDITIO
47 Brendows : You're obviously not including the reduced fuel burn of the GEnX on the 748... I'll believe Airbus when they show us some hard figures, I will be ver
48 Zvezda : First, we need to discount the report as the article refers to a B747-800 which is a non-existant model. The 17% difference could only be relative to
49 Zkpilot : Oh ok then, are they going to be uprated A380-800 engines, or will they be the next generation engines like on the 748I but more powerful?
50 Post contains images Brendows : Welcome back Zvezda Correct, but this figure cannot represents overall efficiency, but efficiency per seat. But I still do not think that this figure
51 Zvezda : I meant overall efficiency on a per seat, per cabin floor area, per tonne, etc. basis. Efficiency can't be measured on a per airframe basis for diffe
52 Post contains images Haggis79 : well... so far it is actually less successful as the first version of the A350....
53 Post contains images PEK18R36L : Oh, my young friend. Do you ever have much to learn. If recent history proves anything, it is that while many big and important companies are quite h
54 OA412 : Oh come now! Why let facts and common sense get in the way of A380 bashing?
55 Areopagus : But compared to the original 747, this one has a longer wing span with revamped aerodynamics, the latest engines, newer alloys, and more composites.
56 Bringiton : If these figures hold any water and are even remotely accurate (given only boeing knows exactly what they can acheive with a yet to be frozen design)
57 Dvautier : I'm confused here. What does it mean to “solve” the wiring problem? There are several A380s flying. Have these planes solved their wiring problem?
58 Slz396 : Wrong- The first article (in English) indeed doesn't give away their feeling, the second link in German however says: Eine Delegation von Technikern
59 QFFlyer : and which one is the correct one......?
60 Post contains images Morvious : First, they are plane builders. I still beleve they have more information and knowlage then we all together on this forum if it comes to planes.. (Ye
61 Cobra27 : They have a magical google that looks into the future
62 Zvezda : German is not one of my stronger languages, so forgive me if you are a native speaker, but I don't think that's a correct translation. I believe it s
63 Haggis79 : well, I wuold have been surprised if you had not found something against the A380 here.... anyway, I must tell you, his translation was absolutely co
64 Thorben : The word-by-word translations would be "showed themselves satisfied". But the use of that term means that they voiced satisfaction, not that they wer
65 Zvezda : "They said to be satified" has no meaning in English, so it cannot be the best translation unless one is attempting to translate a grammatical error.
66 PM : There are too many posts to read through them all so apologies if this point has been made before. I have no idea if 17% is reasonable or not but the
67 KC135TopBoom : That also goes for the A-380. Maybe they could also sqeeze 550 into a B-747-400, 600 into a B-747-800I, and 800 into the WhaleJet. Seeing the A-380-8
68 Threepoint : PM, I think you've boiled it down to its essence and introduced a rare voice of reason into this long & protracted 'debate'. Surprisingly, no, your p
69 Zvezda : Now 970,000 lbs MTOW. The WhaleJet's engines are now one generation behind those of the A350/B787/B747-8, however, the WhaleJet has much better aerod
70 KC135TopBoom : I believe SQ and QF signed LOIs for additional WaleJets, that is not the same as confirmed orders.
71 Johnny : @KC135TopBoom "I believe SQ and QF signed LOIs for additional WaleJets, that is not the same as confirmed orders." How likely in their eyes (not in yo
72 Post contains images Dutchjet : 17%
73 SSTsomeday : How is it that Airbus can make statements like this and nobody understands exactly what they mean? Are they intentionally being vague (therefore, "sp
74 Zvezda : The right way to look at that is to ask how often in the past have airlines not firmed LoIs. In SQ's case, the answer is quite often. SQ are notoriou
75 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Not quite. The engine manufacturers will not invest in such a program until they believe that the incremental return is worth the incremental investm
76 Wedgetail737 : That's great to hear that Airbus is making progress in resolving A380 problems, but I'll believe when I see it. Besides, do you really think Airbus is
77 Thorben : What is so unclear? It means that the A380 will need 17% less fuel per seat than a 747-8, when they both fly with a similar cabin layout - that gives
78 SSTsomeday : Well that is NOT clear to me because... " target=_blank>http://www.boeing.com/randy/pdf/747A...d.pdf Who is correct? I suppose we are going to have t
79 Post contains links PM : In which case your 'belief' is only half right: http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn.../details?ArticleID=2006/oct06/3498 "Qantas Airways announced t
80 Zvezda : I don't believe that Airbus ever made such an obviously false claim. The claim was probably made relative to the B747-400 and the journalist was prob
81 Jdevora : They signed LOIs, but it starts to look like they already placed the firm orders At the end of October the A380 had 159 firm orders, on Nov FedEx can
82 PM : The QF order was firm from the start - not an LoI. I assume they're counting the SQ order as firm - which it isn't yet.
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