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Why No American Carrier Flying MCO - LON?  
User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1127 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7812 times:

With the large amount of traffic which flies from the UK and Orlando (International & Sanford), with both scheduled and charter carriers, how come there is not an american carrier flying the route?

Delta have quite a big operation at MCO. I think a daily B763 could work on an MCO -LGW routing.

What does everyone think?

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7793 times:

Why?

1. MCO is not a major hub for any US carrier.

2. MCO-London is a more leisure oriented route so yeilds would be problematic.

3. There are many more UK residents headed to MCO and the attractions in Orlando than there are Orlando residents headed to London/the UK.

4. Most UK residents headed to Orlando purchase their flights as part of holiday packages.


User currently offlineKanebear From United States of America, joined May 2002, 953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7793 times:

A.) MCO isn't a hub for any US carrier
B.) MCO traffic is low yielding leisure traffic. Lots of pax, not as much money.
C.) It's a simple matter for a US carrier to connect through a hub and two of them (DL and AA) have hubs that are VERY close (MIA and ATL) with LON service.

Whoops, looks like Dutchjet and I were posting at the same time.

[Edited 2006-11-26 03:02:34]

User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7766 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
MCO is not a major hub for any US carrier.

Well its quite a large hub for Delta Airlines. It serves the following destinations:

Delta Air Lines (Atlanta, Boston, Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky, Hartford, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Mexico City [begins December 1, 2006], New York-JFK, New York-LaGuardia, Salt Lake City, San Juan)
Delta Connection operated by Chautauqua Airlines (Charleston (SC), Columbus, Greensboro, Greenville (SC), Louisville, Miami, Raleigh/Durham, Tallahassee)
Delta Connection operated by Comair (Atlantic City, Greensboro, Norfolk, Raleigh/Durham)
Delta Connection operated by Freedom Airlines (Akron/Canton, Asheville, Atlanta, Baton Rouge, Birmingham (AL), Bloomington [seasonal], Columbia, Dayton, Fort Lauderdale, Huntsville, Key West, Knoxville, Lexington, Little Rock, Miami, Nashville, Nassau, New Orleans, Newport News [seasonal], Panama City, Pensacola, Raleigh/Durham, Richmond, Tallahassee, Tri-Cities (TN))
Delta Connection operated by Shuttle America (Austin, Dallas/Fort Worth)

And although most UK residents are on package holidays, there are still scheduled flights...BA and VS!!

Plus, although there are not as many american tourists from Orlando visiting the UK, UK visitors could still use an american carrier!


User currently offlineKanebear From United States of America, joined May 2002, 953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7713 times:

Focus city for DL and FL, hub for Chautauqua and Freedom Air (both DL connection). UK visitors can go via ATL or MIA if they want an American carrier, a flight from MCO doesn't make sense.

User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7256 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7712 times:

The Bermuda 2 Agreement lists those US cities (not airports) that may be served by US airlines and by UK airlines from LHR and LGW. Although most of the cities are on both list there are cities on the each list that are not on the other.

The UK airline list includes Denver, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, San Diego, Tampa as well as Orlando that are not on the US airline list.

Correspondingly cities included on the US airline list that are not on the UK list include Anchorage, Cincinnati, Minneapolis St Paul and St Louis.

So:

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
I think a daily B763 could work on an MCO -LGW routing.

This cannot now happen until the US Congress decides not to oppose the US DoT proposals for an Open Skies agreement as the EU negotiators are digging their heels in. Before the EU took over negotiations your idea could have worked as the US and UK governments have approached Bermuda 2 flexibly. So, for example, VS was added to the agreement that originally specified that flights by UK and US airlines between LHR and the US gateway cities should be limited to BA, PA and TW. Similarly UA was substituted for PA and AA for TW.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24320 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7704 times:

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 3):
Well its quite a large hub for Delta Airlines. It serves the following destinations:

WAS is the keyword. Not a hub any longer.

DL MCO ops is a shell of it former self and run with lots of RJ equipment.

At one time in the 1990s DL did run a Europe flight (FRA) as feed to its German routes acquired from Pan Am, however like previous posters have mentioned the market is simply not one that is attractive to a US major.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2223 posts, RR: 39
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7629 times:

MCO isnt a Hub for Delta.

The hubs are ATL, CVG, SLC, and JFK. The other cities like MCO are focus cities, mainly with Delta Connection. (MCO and CMH have alot of Chautauqua flights).

ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineMadairdrie From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7594 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 5):
The UK airline list includes Denver, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, San Diego, Tampa as well as Orlando that are not on the US airline list.

US does (or at least used to) fly PIT LGW.
Kenneth


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32176 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7487 times:

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 3):

Well its quite a large hub for Delta Airlines. It serves the following destinations:

Not a hub for US Airways at all.

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 3):

And although most UK residents are on package holidays, there are still scheduled flights...BA and VS!!

Guess what...Virgin Atlantic sells many (if not most) of those package holidays.

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 3):

Plus, although there are not as many american tourists from Orlando visiting the UK, UK visitors could still use an american carrier!

Why? Chances are, they are going to fly the British carrier.

Quoting Madairdrie (Reply 8):

US does (or at least used to) fly PIT LGW.
Kenneth

Used to.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 5):
The UK airline list includes Denver, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, San Diego, Tampa as well as Orlando that are not on the US airline list.

I'm not entirely sure that is correct. US Airways has flown Pittsburgh-London in the past, Delta has flown Orlando-London in the past, and United Airlines, as part of their proposed merger with US Airways, was going to start Denver-London.



a.
User currently offlineFCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7399 times:

Phoenix is not correct either. As I understand it, US Airways can start PHX-LGW ops, and in fact by doing so, by the terms of Bermuda II they'd force BA to move their PHX flight to LGW too (or, more likely, just cancel it altogether.)

What's holding US back is a distinct lack of suitable aircraft - the A333 won't cut it.



USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7370 times:

As stated above, the vast majority of the passengers travelling Orlando - London are UK holidaymakers.

Why would be want to travel by a US airline ($5 per drink, poor food, indifferent service) when we have a choice of UK airlines ?


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7246 times:

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 3):
Well its quite a large hub for Delta Airlines. It serves the following destinations:

Delta has very few connecting passengers in MCO, therefore, not a hub.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7213 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 12):

Delta has very few connecting passengers in MCO, therefore, not a hub.

The old ""is it a hub or is it a focus city discussion"".....I agree that MCO is not a hub in the Delta network, its simply a city that has a good number of flights.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 11):
As stated above, the vast majority of the passengers travelling Orlando - London are UK holidaymakers.

Why would be want to travel by a US airline ($5 per drink, poor food, indifferent service) when we have a choice of UK airlines ?

Compared to the comfort of UK holiday airlines offering 8 abreast 767s and 29 inch pitch? Note that most UK passengers on package vacations are assigned flights and do not have a choice of carrier.....in many cases they do not know which airline or what type will operate the flight until the airplane pulls up at the gate. There is another thread at the moment about a 738 being used on Glasgow-Orlando service (with a tech stop in St Johns). Its not so simple.


User currently offlineOldtimer From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 191 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7137 times:

Dutchjet, neither VS or BA are charter airlines, they do not operate 8 abreast 767 or 29 inch seat pitch. There is a mixture of both business and holidaymakers on both operators with VS having the majority of holidaymakers and less business. If you book a half decent tour operator and read the brochure you always know which airline you are travelling with and 99% of the time which equipment.
I too am surprised that no American carrier hasn't tried recently to get into the LON-MIA or MCO. I used to often fly AA on the MAN-ORD and always enjoyed the service, even in the back in economy before current changes in service.
Oldtimer



Oldtimer, I should have known better!
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7117 times:

Quoting Oldtimer (Reply 14):
Dutchjet, neither VS or BA are charter airlines

Thanks for pointing that out.

Quoting Oldtimer (Reply 14):
There is a mixture of both business and holidaymakers on both operators with VS having the majority of holidaymakers and less business.

Traffic to/from Orlando is primarily leisure.....full fare premium passengers are few and far between.

Quoting Oldtimer (Reply 14):
they do not operate 8 abreast 767 or 29 inch seat pitch

I realize that...my post was in reponse to the statement claiming that no UK person would fly a US carrier because US carriers charge for drinks (see the thread above), which is absurd.

Quoting Oldtimer (Reply 14):
I too am surprised that no American carrier hasn't tried recently to get into the LON-MIA or MCO.

AA has flown nonstop between MIA and LHR for years and years.


--------------

Again, the majority of traffic between London and Orlando is UK originating leisure traffic, the majority of which are travelling on vacation packages which include a flight on a holiday airline, or in some cases VS or BA. BA has the advantage of routing pax via its London to some other European destinations. Why would a US carrier ""waste"" a valuable widebody on a route like this......remember, filled airplanes do not mean profitable routes. Delta tried MCO-LGW (I believe) and MCO-FRA years ago......the results were a disaster.


User currently offlineWingnut767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7105 times:

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 4):
Focus city for DL and FL, hub for Chautauqua and Freedom Air (both DL connection). UK visitors can go via ATL or MIA if they want an American carrier, a flight from MCO doesn't make sense

Chautauqua only has 10 flights aday anymore. All of there ops and maintenace will be gone as of Dec 1.

MCO is no longer a hub for Delta. They have drastically reduced there flights here.

Dutchjet on the first post had it right


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7089 times:

Quoting Oldtimer (Reply 14):
I realize that...my post was in reponse to the statement claiming that no UK person would fly a US carrier because US carriers charge for drinks (see the thread above), which is absurd.

I didn't just mention the $5 per drink so please don't selectively quote me to come up with an "absurd" posting

I would however,as you have brought this subject up state have you seen the amount some Orlando bound Brits can put away ?


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7058 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 11):
As stated above, the vast majority of the passengers travelling Orlando - London are UK holidaymakers.

Why would be want to travel by a US airline ($5 per drink, poor food, indifferent service) when we have a choice of UK airlines ?



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):

Compared to the comfort of UK holiday airlines offering 8 abreast 767s and 29 inch pitch? Note that most UK passengers on package vacations are assigned flights and do not have a choice of carrier.....in many cases they do not know which airline or what type will operate the flight until the airplane pulls up at the gate. There is another thread at the moment about a 738 being used on Glasgow-Orlando service (with a tech stop in St Johns). Its not so simple.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):

I realize that...my post was in reponse to the statement claiming that no UK person would fly a US carrier because US carriers charge for drinks (see the thread above), which is absurd.

It was my quote.....I dont want to pull Oldtimer into this....

I did not mean to be controversial with this, sorry......what I should have said is that the average passenger travelling UK-Orlando is wholly price oriented, and would fly a UK, US or any other airline if the fare and schedule were correct.


User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6892 times:

For starters, most people do not know that they have to pay for drinks until they get on board the aircraft.

And secondly, even if they did, why would that stop them from booking on that airline? It does not seem to be a problem on other International routes by US carriers, so why would it be a problem on this one?

There might not be a lot of business passengers between MCO and LON, but that doesn't mean to say that leisure passengers from the UK cannot use a US carrier.

Loads of people fly on US carriers to America instead of using BA or VS, so theres no reason why they wouldn't use a US carrier on this route!


User currently offlineAero0729 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6579 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
US carriers charge for drinks (see the thread above), which is absurd.

Delta now offers a free drink with meal service!


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6405 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
Traffic to/from Orlando is primarily leisure.....full fare premium passengers are few and far between.

It's among the top US cities frequent fliers use their miles to go to (Take the spouse and kids to Disney World.). Delta puts just about every mainlne a/c type in their fleet into MCO. I remember when they used to have MD-11s and 777s flying ATL-MCO-ATL (At one point, they even had a 777 flying ATL-MCO-JFK-MCO-ATL prior to MCO-JFK becoming a Delta Express route.)


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6325 times:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 21):

It's among the top US cities frequent fliers use their miles to go to (Take the spouse and kids to Disney World.). Delta puts just about every mainlne a/c type in their fleet into MCO. I remember when they used to have MD-11s and 777s flying ATL-MCO-ATL (At one point, they even had a 777 flying ATL-MCO-JFK-MCO-ATL prior to MCO-JFK becoming a Delta Express route.)

I remember this too.......and all of those frequent fliers do nothing to help yeilds or revenue on a flight/route.

Did DL fly a 777 nonstop between JFK and MCO for a long period? I dont remember that; many times routes like this are for aircraft familiarization; CO introduced their 777s on the EWR-MCO route as well, doing two roundtrips per day for a couple of months.

Most DL 777s/MD11s did a quick ATL-MCO-ATL turn inbetween ATL-European flights.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8625 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6137 times:

BA does LGW-MCO-LGW daily with 777. VS does does LGW-MCO-LGW with their 744. So the route is covered by US codeshares.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5885 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 22):
Did DL fly a 777 nonstop between JFK and MCO for a long period?

I don't know when it started, but it ended in the Fall of 2000 when Delta Express took over the route.


25 EXMEMWIDGET : MCO was a hub for Delta at one time in the late 80's thru the mid 90's. What you now see in MCO is the remnants of that hub. I can't swear by it, but
26 Bobnwa : Delta never connected passengers in MCO to any degree that would classify it as a hub. Having a lot of flights does not make a hub. It makes it an ai
27 Rookinla : Yep...you're right. They also flew FRA (old PA route) and CDG nonstop from MCO. Since we are mentioning DL and MCO, A few nonstop routes not previous
28 RiddlePilot215 : Speaking of which if you look at these leisure carrier websites, even if they do offer some sort of "common fare" it's only good from the UK...never
29 Bobnwa : There are already 3 widebody flights a day fron MCO-LGW on BA and VS. Why would the market need another small aircraft flight once or twice a week?
30 RiddlePilot215 : I honestly forgot about that.....
31 Dutchjet : Once or twice per week flights in a market rarely work....business and premium pax are simply not interested and the result is an airplane filled wit
32 VV701 : Sorry I obviously did not explain the situation so you could understand. In what the original Bermuda 2 agreement said it was very inflexible and ver
33 TLHFLA : I remember the Delta MCO-FRA L1011-500 flight that lasted until the late 90's. When did the Delta MCO-LGW flight operate? Also, I remember hearing tha
34 JGPH1A : Correction. One U.S. codeshare. AA is not allowed to codeshare on BA transatlantic flights.
35 JohnClipper : DL used to operate MCO-FRA and MCO-ORY (L-1011-500s) in the 90's. Back then the International Finger at Terminal C was a busy place with BA (B747), VS
36 Post contains images FCA767 : I've flown Once from Manchester on a Mytravel charter then 3 times Usairways 3 times Delta to orlando via their main hubs and enjoyed the american ser
37 Ualcsr : Didn't AA try out GRU-MCO-GRU with no success? Not UK related, but the same concept. MCO is not a business market nor a hub airport and couldn't pull
38 Rookinla : They did. I think that the timing of the route had a lot to do with its lack of success. Don't forget that the number of Brazilian tourists visiting
39 Ualcsr : When was that flight, 1999/2000 and what equipment did they use? It was very short-lived as I recall.
40 MAH4546 : Yes, pretty much. The market is simply very low-yielding, and with Miami so close, it makes no sense to dedicate an aircraft to Orlando when you can
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