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Rumor: China Southern Swap 5 A380 For 15 350  
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11398 times:

Unconfirmed rumour, posted on CARNOC (a Chinese aviation message board), China Southern swapped 5 A380 for 15 A350XWB, with additional compensation due to A380 delay.

The latest A380 delay affects the delivery date for China Southern, which is suppose to take 2 A380 before 2008 Beijing Olympics.

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline787engineer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11364 times:

Interesting rumor. If it proves to be true, it's another blow to the A380 program. I don't think Airbus will mind too much since they're keeping the customer. Better to have them get A350s than 787/777s right? Anyways I wonder how they'll officially phrase this if it becomes official before the A350XWB launch. After all, it's a little dicey promising to deliver plane, that you're still not 100% sure you're going to build.

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11317 times:

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 1):
If it proves to be true

Indeed, China Southern must have been one of the only airlines who hasn't been targeted yet as a possible candidate to cancell the A380.

The rumour might dissapear just as quick as it came, as we have seen with SQ QF EK KE etc...

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
China Southern swapped 5 A380 for 15 A350XWB, with additional compensation due to A380 delay.

5 A380s would be around US$ 1.5 billion at list price, 15 A350s roughly US$ 3 billion. If this were to happen, it would definitely not be 'a swap with additional compensation'.



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User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11314 times:

If true, it would provide an interesting contrast to this thread:

http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3112793/

No more cancellations OR more cancellations? We'll see. Either way, in the case of China Southern Airbus comes out with an order.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11077 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
The latest A380 delay affects the delivery date for China Southern, which is suppose to take 2 A380 before 2008 Beijing Olympics.

I can't imagine they'll get them in time. CZ was one of the later customers, no matter what their delivery slots are, only around 15 A380s will be flying for customers at Christmas '08, I can't see CZ having any of them.

However, why change them for A350s? Those they wouldn't get before 2015 or so, the A380s were probably not just bought for the Olympics, they are still important planes for CZ, why cancel them?

I believe this is just a rumor. However, I can see CZ being among those operating some of the 20 A350s that the Chinese have commited to recently. Other candidates are CA and MU.


User currently offlineUALMMFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10851 times:

Although China's domestic commercial aviation is dominated by the Big Three (CZ, CA and MU), it is still a very fragmented market. When I was stationed there for a 8-year period, I was surprised to learn that the regional governements' role in starting local airlines operations. CAAC does run the airline purchase, but regional governments and sponsored enterprises have greater says in competition, etc.

I look at the China market fairly similar to the US fragmeneted market with several carriers carved out markets based on geography. The demand of A380 is debatable. As we see China orders single aisle planes b the hundredth, and the domestic fligt schedules are packed with multiple pont-to-point services instead of flying passengers from secondary cities to hubs to Beijing, Shanghai or Guangzhou, and connect them to other secondary cities.

Until Chinese airlines can compete wth foreign carriers on services and product offerings on international routes, I see more 777/787/A330/A350 types of demands from China carriers. These planes can serve flights between major hubs on a high frequency based schedule while A380 may be too big.



Treat others like you'd like to be treated!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10730 times:

A bit odd, going for A350s is not going to sort any capacity needs for the Beijing Olympics since these latter usually do not get postponed, unless a WW is coming up soon!

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10578 times:

If this is true (and thats a very big if).....it will be a big PR problem for Airbus.....it will certainly put a dent in their current ""happy days are here again"" spin campaign claiming that no further airlines are cancelling the A380, and claiming that the A380 wiring and weight problems are completely resolved, and that the airplane is far more effecient than the 748.

Airbus does need to quiet down until its certain that everything is in order with the A380 and that all of the A380 customers are happy campers.....


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10429 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
5 A380s would be around US$ 1.5 billion at list price, 15 A350s roughly US$ 3 billion. If this were to happen, it would definitely not be 'a swap with additional compensation'.

My thoughts entirely


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7202 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10388 times:

Based on my reading of material on this site, it is impossible to swap the A380 for any other a/c as it is the only a/c in its class, hence the reason why no one has cancelled their purchase.

Definately a rumour started to start another A versus B rant.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10349 times:

Quoting Par13del (Reply 9):
Based on my reading of material on this site, it is impossible to swap the A380 for any other a/c as it is the only a/c in its class, hence the reason why no one has cancelled their purchase.

Definately a rumour started to start another A versus B rant.

Huh? China Southern and Airbus have a contract - that contract can be amended, modified or cancelled if both parties agree. Nothing is impossible....if China Southern and Airbus agreed to modify the contract to cancel the A380 order in favor of a A350 order, its a done deal. Did this happen? Who knows?


User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3704 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10238 times:
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Quoting Par13del (Reply 9):
Based on my reading of material on this site, it is impossible to swap the A380 for any other a/c as it is the only a/c in its class, hence the reason why no one has cancelled their purchase.

It is very possible to swap one aircraft for another. Look at Delta, I believe they just swapped 737's for 2 777LR's. It can be done. And I don't believe that this thread is another A vs B rant. Had the poster said that they have cxld their order and are now getting 748's then you'd have a case, but they didn't so you dont have one.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10169 times:

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 11):
I believe they just swapped 737's for 2 777LR's.

They swapped 2 Trent powered 772ERs for two GE powered (obviously) 772LR


User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3704 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10126 times:
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Quoting RJ111 (Reply 12):
They swapped 2 Trent powered 772ERs for two GE powered (obviously) 772LR

Well I stand corrected. Nonetheless it was a swap. Airbus is in business to make money. I'm sure they would rather have an aircraft swap than an aircraft cancellation.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10076 times:

I only could imagine that China decided to fly the A380s in Air China livery in 2008 and not in china southern´s.


But canceling the birds they ordered for the olympic games? Not very likely.


Johnny


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10033 times:
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Quoting Par13del (Reply 9):
Based on my reading of material on this site, it is impossible to swap the A380 for any other a/c as it is the only a/c in its class, hence the reason why no one has cancelled their purchase.

Nothing is stopping CZ from increasing frequencies, however. 15 A350XWBs of any type will carry in aggregate more people then 5 A388s. CZ might very well have wanted the A388 to stuff people into PEK from LAX and SFO (they don't fly to the UK, much less LHR) but since that's not going to happen, perhaps the need for the plane is no longer relevant?

If this happens, it's more then a blow to Airbus on the "no more cancellations" area.

It's a blow to Airbus' (and many a-netters) belief that China's sheer size means they must operate the A380. If China can get away with narrowbodies and 787-3s domestically and 777s/A350XWBs internationally, that's a huge market Airbus is pinning the A380's future success on going away...and, admittedly, probably a market Boeing hoped to score some serious 748I orders in, as well...


User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9925 times:

Quoting Par13del (Reply 9):
Based on my reading of material on this site, it is impossible to swap the A380 for any other a/c as it is the only a/c in its class, hence the reason why no one has cancelled their purchase.

Actually, after ordering an new A/C type, an airline may find it wants to change it's business model, so it may want to take advantage of the 380 delay (airlines have "out" clauses if the manufacturer does not deliver on time) to cancel or amend it's order. FX just did it, cancelling the 380 in favor or the 777.

Or, an airline may amend an order to a completely different class of A/C because they want to concentrate on another segment of their market. Perhaps they notice that a segment in "International" has more potential for growth than "domestic", for example. Some American airlines have found that they are giving up market share to LLC's domestically, and are instead beefing up international routes. See below...

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 11):
It is very possible to swap one aircraft for another. Look at Delta, I believe they just swapped 737's for 2 777LR's. It can be done.

 checkmark 



I come in peace
User currently offlinePEK18R36L From China, joined Dec 2005, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9593 times:

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 5):
Although China's domestic commercial aviation is dominated by the Big Three (CZ, CA and MU), it is still a very fragmented market. When I was stationed there for a 8-year period, I was surprised to learn that the regional governements' role in starting local airlines operations. CAAC does run the airline purchase, but regional governments and sponsored enterprises have greater says in competition, etc.

This was very true for a long time, but the recent government-mandated consolidation of the airlines have made each of the three majors far more national than their regional roots suggest. Their independence will grow as they list overseas as well.

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 5):
The demand of A380 is debatable.

Well, that depends on what you mean. Even Boeing figures that China will need somewhere between 75-80 VLAs over the next two decades.

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 5):
the domestic fligt schedules are packed with multiple pont-to-point services instead of flying passengers from secondary cities to hubs to Beijing, Shanghai or Guangzhou, and connect them to other secondary cities.

Of all places in the world, I'd say India and China make the "point-to-point vs. hub-and-spoke" question somewhat moot. Point to point will grow, and hub and spoke will grow. As the market grows, impacted infrastructure (airways and airports) will strain under the weight of a huge population that discovers flying, and the need for VLAs on high density routes inside of China will become painfully evident.

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 5):
Until Chinese airlines can compete wth foreign carriers on services and product offerings on international routes, I see more 777/787/A330/A350 types of demands from China carriers. These planes can serve flights between major hubs on a high frequency based schedule while A380 may be too big.

I'd say except for high tourist seasons around the national holidays, big twins will increasingly dominate most international services from China via Chinese airlines - even after the local guys start playing by the rules set by SQ, CX, and NH.

Don't count the WhaleJet out, though. Just take a walk through PEK's domestic terminal these days, like I did this afternoon as I caught a plane to SHA. The A380s China future is routes between PEK, PVG, SHA, CAN, CDU, HKG, and international destinations like BKK and SIN, and it will serve those routes well - routes where the volumes already exceed wide-body twin capacities.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
It's a blow to Airbus' (and many a-netters) belief that China's sheer size means they must operate the A380. If China can get away with narrowbodies and 787-3s domestically

On 97% of routes, China can. But on those top 3% - 5% of its routes, demand is already outstripping seat supply and airspace, and there is a nice comfy niche for VLAs.



In China, everything is possible - but nothing is easy.
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9187 times:

Quoting PEK18R36L (Reply 17):
Don't count the WhaleJet out, though. Just take a walk through PEK's domestic terminal these days, like I did this afternoon as I caught a plane to SHA. The A380s China future is routes between PEK, PVG, SHA, CAN, CDU, HKG, and international destinations like BKK and SIN, and it will serve those routes well - routes where the volumes already exceed wide-body twin capacities.

In all likelihood large mainland cities will end up with multiple airports, like NYC, LA, and LON have.

And given the closeness of BKK and SIN to China and their importance as business centers, frequency will play an important role, particularly if there is competition between majors at each of the large mainland airports.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 725 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8866 times:

Quoting PEK18R36L (Reply 17):
Of all places in the world, I'd say India and China make the "point-to-point vs. hub-and-spoke" question somewhat moot. Point to point will grow, and hub and spoke will grow. As the market grows, impacted infrastructure (airways and airports) will strain under the weight of a huge population that discovers flying, and the need for VLAs on high density routes inside of China will become painfully evident.

Having 150 cities with a population of 1 million +, the point to point international option makes tremendous sense here IMHO.

I've flown to PEK a few times in recent weeks and noticed the China Eastern has started using their int'l configured A330-200's on the SHA-PEK route. The int'L sleeper seat F class was only 30-40% full, Y class packed.

My question is that with most people paying an average of say $80-90 one-way for a 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 hour flight, would it make ever make economic sense to use an A380 (even if you could fill it) on such a short flight?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8762 times:
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Quoting PVG (Reply 19):
My question is that with most people paying an average of say $80-90 one-way for a 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 hour flight, would it make ever make economic sense to use an A380 (even if you could fill it) on such a short flight?

Probably not, since such a low RASM would require an even lower CASM. And while the A388 held the CASM advantage when she was launched, newer generation smaller widebodies like the 787 and A350XWB families will beat that.

And since airlines can't usually cross-sell anything (though some are trying with selling food, beverages, pillows/blankets) with the seat, you can't "make up on volume" so offering 400 sub-profitable seats on an A388 will hurt you more then offering 200 sub-profitable seats on a 787 or A350XWB.


User currently offlineBriguy1974 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8586 times:

Hey next we will see praise for China Southern's support for the A-350 program and how it is dominating the 787 and 777. I have no doubt Airbus in another desperate move to keep a customer will make some kind of swap. Airbus can almost bank on the success of the A-330 as compensation for A-380 and A350 delays.
Just keep racking up those compensation orders Airbus, make sure to count them on your web site so you can beat Boeing again.
Maybe someone should remind China Southern that the A-350 is not available yet. They should move the orders over to the A-330.


User currently offlineTootallsd From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8563 times:
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Quoting Johnny (Reply 14):
But canceling the birds they ordered for the olympic games? Not very likely.

If they deliver after 8/8/08 (a date chosen for its good luck) then it is a real possibility.


User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8410 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
5 A380s would be around US$ 1.5 billion at list price, 15 A350s roughly US$ 3 billion. If this were to happen, it would definitely not be 'a swap with additional compensation'.

Who knows what the contract between Airbus and CZ shows.

Keep in mind, that the reason behind China Southern getting the A380 is mostly for pride purposes. 1) Beijing Olympics 2) China Southern building Beijing hub to increase competition with Air China. Beijing Olympics plays the big factor so it can show that China has entered a new era in terms of transportation. (In Fact, everything enters into a new era when 2008 Olympic games begin)

Quoting Par13del (Reply 9):
it is impossible to swap the A380 for any other a/c as it is the only a/c in its class, hence the reason why no one has cancelled their purchase.

So you can not swap 380 for 350 but you can swap 340 for 380?

Quoting Johnny (Reply 14):
I only could imagine that China decided to fly the A380s in Air China livery in 2008 and not in china southern´s.

But canceling the birds they ordered for the olympic games? Not very likely.

Air China was considering about leasing a pair but that went quiet for a long time now. Also, keep in mind, A380 is playing a significant role (as well as the 787) to Communist Chinese. Basically a "show and tell" session during Olympics that how strong and powerful Chinese is today.

Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 22):
If they deliver after 8/8/08 (a date chosen for its good luck) then it is a real possibility.

No, Olympic Games begins on 8/8/08. CZ needs the plane before that date.


User currently offlineMIAMIx707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8398 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
It's a blow to Airbus' (and many a-netters) belief that China's sheer size means they must operate the A380

 checkmark 

Quoting PEK18R36L (Reply 17):
As the market grows, impacted infrastructure (airways and airports) will strain under the weight of a huge population that discovers flying,

The problem is not "discovering" but be able to afford air tavel. As it is right now what's China's biggest pax aircraft, 777? (that's the plane they send to the biggest intl cities). I think in due time there will be demand for some VLAs in China, but at the moment, even though the population is huge, not everyone can afford to fly, like in the US and Europe, for example.


25 Johnny : @ MIAMIx707 No, it is the B744... Air China and Cathay Pacific both have it! Johnny
26 Thorben : MU has A346s CA has 744s CX has 744s, A346, and 773s. Many foreign carriers fly 744s to China. There will be no problems with filling some A380s. In
27 MIAMIx707 : it might mean that they're seeing growth prospects slowing down so by swapping the A380s for A350s (a plane that's also delayed and not 100% certain a
28 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : I was talking about China Southern.. I forgot to type "SOUTHERN" of course I know those airlines fly pax 744s.. and again all or mostly long haul, no
29 Supa7E7 : The Chinese need all kinds of planes including (gasp) the A350XWB. They will need 100 of them. No big deal. "Slowing growth prospects" would not affec
30 SSTsomeday : Is a reinforced 380 for short/medium range and high numbers of cycles being offered or considered (for intra-China traffic)?
31 Tootallsd : My point exactly
32 Jacobin777 : MH might cancel (financial problems)..TG will decide by Febuary if they will cancel...SQ need them. CA just got some brand new 744's and will probabl
33 Ken777 : If China Southern purchased the 380 for delivery before the Olympics then I wouldn't be surprised if here was a clause in the contract reflecting this
34 Zvezda : No. The turnaround time of the WhaleJet would mean relatively low utilization on short routes, which would keep revenue low and costs high.
35 Thorben : For cargo, yes, but it would be very strange to see these large airlines with their huge market without the A380 in the longer term.
36 UALMMFlyer : Having a huge domestic market does not equate to the need for A380. I can see Japan and US are huge markets, but no A380. What is the rationale behind
37 Post contains images Jacobin777 : 1)Most pax don't know the difference between an A320 from a DC-8... 2)Neither CX nor BA have shown a gravitation towards the A380...BA is slightly ne
38 Thorben : I agree, the A380 won't make too many domestic flights in China. However, on some routes like between HKG, PEK, and PVG, there will be so much demand
39 Post contains images Jacobin777 : That's the problem.."filling the plane"....I've been on 747's with 45 pax on board.. ..Filling an A380 year round for some carriers on some routes wo
40 N328KF : This is why I think that some VLA operators should start pooling their aircraft, particularly within an alliance. This would permit seasonal redeploy
41 Zvezda : Depends on the yields. Filling a WhaleJet with discounted fares doesn't make it profitable. Back on topic, the rumor is plausible except that there i
42 Jacobin777 : That concept hasn't flown with carriers though..(no pun on words)
43 Stitch : Well you can codeshare. So UA may never serve LAX-FRA with their own metal, but they could codeshare more aggressively with LH to send passengers to
44 PVG : Air China has 747's. There are many people here today who can afford to fly. There is already a middle-class of 100 million people who own homes/cars
45 Post contains images Thorben : That's some space for everyone, mh? It depends. If you can fill it 100% half of the year, and 80% for the other half, than you might end up with more
46 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Actually, you are incorrect....both NZ and Oasis Airlines are sending 747's on the route....... In fact, I've read some BA posts on another websited
47 Post contains images Thorben : What route? JNB-LHR? Oh oh, I suppose they'll rather buy A330s than 747-8, then. Yep, you would feel like in the American Plains there. Time will tel
48 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I'm sure you meant 787's... Actually, it was on a KL flight..... Not going anywhere.. If anything, it has gained its iconic status..especially given
49 Post contains images PEK18R36L : Man, I'd love to know how you define "long haul." When I'm flying on CZ between CAN and PEK or SHA I'm on a 777. When I fly CA (my hometown airline)
50 Zvezda : The WhaleJet will have the lowest CASM of any airliner -- until the B747-8I enters service. It will also be beaten in CASM by the B787-10 and -- unle
51 Post contains images DAYflyer : They may as well swap them, since they would get either one at about the same time....
52 WINGS : Zvezda, yet again we don't agree on this point. So I will ask it, the following way so that it's more understandable. How many seats will the A380 re
53 Brendows : I believe Zvezda is referring to a normal pax config for the A380, 748i and 787-10. If you use an all pax-config on the A380, you've to do it for the
54 Post contains images Astuteman : Presumably, that's the judgement that the airline make relative to their intended routes when they choose the aircraft (as with any aircraft). No one
55 WINGS : Well if that's the case I would like to know how many seats Airlines will have to squeeze into the A380 in order to offset the CASM, of a typically c
56 Zvezda : Depends, of course, on how many seats are put in the latter airliners. We could argue in circles all day about what is a typical seat count, since th
57 WINGS : So Zvezda, we are agreeing that the A380 does in fact have CASM advantage vs the B748i/787-10/A350X-1000. The A380 may have to packed with some more
58 Thorben : Not when they're all at their maximum seat level. The newer jets may have lower maintenance cost, maybe even a lower fuel burn per pax, but the pilot
59 Zvezda : No. If the seats are packed in with comparable pitch, the A350-1000, B787-10, and B747-8I will have lower CASM. Depending on whom one believes, the t
60 WINGS : It is my understanding that the A380 will be able to provide 11 abreast seating. How would a 11 abreast A380 compare to the B748i with 10 abreast sea
61 RJ111 : Fuel cost might be between 24%-28% higher. I ran a few rough calculations based on range/payload charts. Seems the 747 is 6% more efficient per ton at
62 Post contains images Brendows : Greeting once again WINGS According to the figures from A380 ACAP the width of the cabin at seat bottom level is 6.3m (and the seats are squeezed up a
63 Zvezda : I used to believe that until I did the calculations. With 16.5" seats in a 3-5-3 configuration, the aisles would be too narrow. I can imagine a chart
64 WINGS : Thank you for that insightful information. So it seems that an eventual 11 abreast seating (main deck) is out of the question. While the A380 will st
65 Zvezda : What seat width and aisle width do you have in mind? To add 20 Y seats to a WhaleJet would require giving up 2" of seat pitch on the maindeck in the
66 Post contains images WINGS : Well Zvezda, airlines can always opt to sacrifice legroom for passengers on the main deck in order to achieve an increase in capacity to offset CASM.
67 Zvezda : Yes, airlines can sacrifice legroom to reduce CASM, but RASM drops too. Sometimes faster. No, those numbers don't help. One needs to know the cabin w
68 Post contains images Brendows : I believe that would be a tight fit... If you put a seat say ten cm closer to the sidewall, the person in the window seat would basically be sitting
69 Jimyvr : Not sure about Europe, but even a fully-packed 747 to/from US lose tons of $
70 Post contains images PEK18R36L : Not arguing your point, but: a. Do you mean all transpac 747s or just Air China's? b. If just Air China's, could you refer us to a source on CA's los
71 PM : Perhaps something that will be confirmed during Monday's Airbus press conference?
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