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Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s  
User currently offlineSU From Russia, joined Apr 2004, 360 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 8966 times:

SU now is looking into possibility to get 10 second hand A330s by 2008 for 6,7 year lease in order to feel the gap of its long haul fleet until they get 787s or A350s. Additionally, SU is planning to buy additional 45 A32X family planes by 2010.

This is being looked after missing the deadline for placing the 787 orders in the beginning of November and urge for long haul fleet update.

This is a very surprising decision. Right now SU’s long haul consists of 767s and IL96s and SU’s plans are to retire these planes by 2010.

Is this a move to prepare long haul fleet for A350?

Where are they going to get these A330s and are there 10 second hand A330s available in the market?

Any guess if it will be A330-2 or 330-3?

Will 787 or A350 be available to SU after 7,8 years?


"Life is too short to take it serious..."
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBHXDTW From Eritrea, joined Feb 2005, 1090 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 8910 times:

Yeah, I thought thats the 2nd hand A330 market was very small....
they wouldnt be coming from a smaller carrier like Air Luxor or something could they ??


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 8851 times:

Seems like a good idea but they ignored just one problem - there are hardly any second-hand A330s. And when some show up usually there is a lot of takers.

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12473 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 8811 times:
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Second-hand A330s are rarer than the rarest thing they make at the factory where they make very rare things. yes 

Otherwise, a good plan!



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30886 posts, RR: 87
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 8798 times:
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Quoting SU (Thread starter):
This is a very surprising decision. Right now SU's long haul consists of 767s and IL96s and SU's plans are to retire these planes by 2010. Is this a move to prepare long haul fleet for A350?

Doesn't strike me as surprising, though I believe Keesje first raised this possibility last week and I noted "tongue-in-cheek" that I was skeptical of SU being allowed to order anything.

SU still has a little less then a week to consummate their deal with Boeing to get 787s in 2010. This A330 lease might be a way to allow that Boeing order to go through, while still maintaining leverage over the EU (in combination with the 45-frame A320 order) while they wait for the A350XWB to both be formally offered for sale and while they wait for it to be available for delivery. While the "plan" is to get A330s in 2008-2009, more likely they will arrive next decade to help balance out the fleet replacement as 787s arrive or they'll never actually be taken, but will instead just "place hold" until the A350XWB's arrive.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8767 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 2):
Seems like a good idea but they ignored just one problem - there are hardly any second-hand A330s. And when some show up usually there is a lot of takers.

Maybe they can get those A330's when US dumps theirs after they buy out DL and go for an "all-Boeing" widebody fleet..... stirthepot   duck 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineSU From Russia, joined Apr 2004, 360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8765 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
SU still has a little less then a week to consummate their deal with Boeing to get 787s in 2010.

I thought they missed that deadline...



"Life is too short to take it serious..."
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30886 posts, RR: 87
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8743 times:
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Quoting SU (Reply 6):
I thought they missed that deadline...

Boeing extended it until December 1st (and may do so again if warranted).


User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8723 times:

Sometimes I think Aeroflot's PR computer system has a virus that every few days automatically spits out a press release with differing aircraft types, lease dates, and EIS times. The virus is also a variant of the "Sheremetyevo III will certainly open for sure by, no we really mean it this time,1993, 1995, 1997, 2001, etc." virus...

User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8702 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Boeing extended it until December 1st

Why would they do it if apparently there is a crowd of airlines waiting for these slots?


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30886 posts, RR: 87
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8689 times:
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Quoting Danny (Reply 9):
Why would they do it if apparently there is a crowd of airlines waiting for these slots?

Most likely because they are hopeful now that the US has kept their part of the "deal" and allowed Russia to enter the WTO, Russia will now uphold their end and allow the 22 frame order to go through.

Also, we don't know (do we?) that all 22 frames are slated for a 2010 delivery. It could be only a handful are and the rest spread out later (like 2013 or later) in which case they might not be as desirable to a new carrier wanting to place a large order.


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8674 times:

While I would love to see Aeroflot introduce the A330 into it's fleet, I reserve some doubts as to where they will be getting those second hand examples from.

If Aeroflot would become a launch customer for the A350X , I'm sure that Airbus and Aeroflot can reach an agreement into a lease deal, like we have seen with SQ. Apart from this scenario I don't think we will see such number of A330's becoming available in that time period.

Has anyone actually noticed, that this would make Aeroflot the second Russian airline to show interest in the A330? A few months ago we heard rumours about Transaero interesting acquiring 8 frames + A32X.

Another ironic point is Austrian Airlines and it's will to dispose of it's A330 fleet, in favour for the B767. Looks like they are the only ones going against the flow.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineSU From Russia, joined Apr 2004, 360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8674 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 9):

Cause we are nice...   

[Edited 2006-11-27 15:16:15]


"Life is too short to take it serious..."
User currently offlineSU From Russia, joined Apr 2004, 360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8643 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):
Has anyone actually noticed, that this would make Aeroflot the second Russian airline to show interest in the A330? A few months ago we heard rumours about Transaero interesting acquiring 8 frames + A32X.

Yeap - I am with you...



"Life is too short to take it serious..."
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8605 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
US has kept their part of the "deal" and allowed Russia to enter the WTO

It wasn't just US who allowed them in WTO. That is why they have to split the order. But they will continue to play it in my opinion. Remember that Putin is a KGB guy, he loves those games.


User currently offlineBrendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8556 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):

Another ironic point is Austrian Airlines and it's will to dispose of it's A330 fleet, in favour for the B767. Looks like they are the only ones going against the flow.

That might not be the case, did you forget this one Wings? Smile:
Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion
There are airlines that don't have the market to fill a A330. In such cases, why would operating 767s be such a bad choice? boggled 

I have to join that crowd that wonders about where SU are going to get ten 2nd hand A330s from...


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30886 posts, RR: 87
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8552 times:
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Quoting Danny (Reply 14):
It wasn't just US who allowed them in WTO. That is why they have to split the order. But they will continue to play it in my opinion. Remember that Putin is a KGB guy, he loves those games.

Oh I agree that Russia wants something from the EU, which is why they continue to dangle the A350XWB in front of them and why they suddenly decided to double the order to 44 frames instead of the original "winner take all" 22-frame order. However, if Russia renegs on the 787, there will be some "blow back" from the US which is why I believe they will do it.

Also, if Russia disses the US, nothing prevents them from dissing the EU later, so that will make the EU less receptive to the "carrot" of the A350XWB and/or A330 order.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8538 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Boeing extended it until December 1st (and may do so again if warranted).

For the sake of accuracy, Boeing extended the pricing.. not the slots..



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineSU From Russia, joined Apr 2004, 360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8518 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 14):
It wasn't just US who allowed them in WTO.

That's true - part of the deal between Russia and EU was for Russia to eliminate overflight fees and as far as i know Russia promised to completely eliminate overflying fees by 2013 which is a very good news for all carriers...



"Life is too short to take it serious..."
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 8453 times:

Quoting Brendows (Reply 15):
Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):

Another ironic point is Austrian Airlines and it's will to dispose of it's A330 fleet, in favour for the B767. Looks like they are the only ones going against the flow.

That might not be the case, did you forget this one Wings? Smile:
Brussels Airline's 767 Long Haul Expansion

Greeting's Brendows,

You pointed out a good example, so with all due respect I will provide you with my views in regards to this particular move by Brussels Airlines.

Brussels Airlines are a current A330 operator. They have mentioned that they are looking and prefer to upgrade with more A330´s due to commodity and the A330's superior cargo capability. They may have to go with the B767 because they simply cant afford or can't manage to get additional A330's in the second hand market, in the time frame that they desire.

Quoting Brendows (Reply 15):
There are airlines that don't have the market to fill a A330. In such cases, why would operating 767s be such a bad choice?

The Boeing 767 is a magnificent airplane which has proven to be a reliable workhorse among the finest airlines and for this reason the B767 is not a bad option, but it is the second best option. Even if an airline does not have the capability to fill up an A330 they can always opt to provide a premium service with more room onboard. Another advantage of the A330 vs the B767 is it's cargo capability.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineCgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1150 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 8167 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 3):
Second-hand A330s are rarer than the rarest thing they make at the factory where they make very rare things.

Very clever! Must remember that one.

Seriously though...I can't imagine there are dozens of A330s in storage just standing around collecting dust. Good luck SU.



A330 man.
User currently offlineZBA320 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 8125 times:

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 20):
Seriously though...I can't imagine there are dozens of A330s in storage just standing around collecting dust. Good luck SU.

Indeed. Although in over 5 years time after the B787 comes into service perhaps we will be seeing a start of a new trend of A330s been parked. Or at least a some kind of trend for B763ERs.

The sad story of economics.

[Edited 2006-11-27 17:45:18]


An Engineer made a bet that a 747 Gear wouldn't retract in a Hangar. He lost the bet.
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3387 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 8060 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):
If Aeroflot would become a launch customer for the A350X , I'm sure that Airbus and Aeroflot can reach an agreement into a lease deal, like we have seen with SQ. Apart from this scenario I don't think we will see such number of A330's becoming available in that time period.

I'm wondering too if this is a miss reporting of a possible similar deal to the SQ A330/350 shuffle that will make the A330 the plane of choice for conversion into frieghters in about 8 years time!


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 7922 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
Maybe they can get those A330's when US dumps theirs after they buy out DL and go for an "all-Boeing" widebody fleet..... stirthepot duck

When an Airbus operator takes over an all-Boeing operator, this is actually a good chance for Airbus.

Speak German?
http://www.aero.de/news.php?varnewsi...D=53a5ae1ec752c01b13cd32265943b281

Concerning the thread: A330s are probably just right for SU, they have many Airbus pilots and what else should they get for a decent expansion/replacement of the 767s? However, this doesn't change much about the chances of the 787 and A350 in the longer run.

They would need new A330s, I don't see many used ones on the market.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 7539 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):
When an Airbus operator takes over an all-Boeing operator, this is actually a good chance for Airbus.

I don't see how that has anything to do with this other than your wishful thinking. The fact of the matter is that if Delta and US Airways merged, the merged entity would likely choose the best aircraft for the new route map.

One major factor is the fact that Delta's fleet is more oriented towards long-haul than US Airways' fleet. US Airways has nothing like the 777-200ER, let alone the 777-200LR.

And US Airways is not an inherently Airbus-biased carrier, which you seem to have frequently been confused about. This US Airways is simply the rebadged America West, and they appear to have no bias in either direction. The composition of the current fleet seems to be revolve around fleet rationalization with respect to their routes than anything else, but inheriting Delta's fleet would give them quite a number of shiny new Boeings. It'd be harder to justify getting rid of them when they would need such airframes for long haul routes.

With that said, I could completely see a new Delta operating a mixed fleet. The fleet would be large enough to justify both types (see: UA.)

Imagine if you will, a new Delta with 737NGs, A320 series, a very large fleet of 757s, A330s and newer 767s, and a few 777s for the heavy routes.

[Edited 2006-11-27 19:17:24]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
25 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..with Boeing being the primary driver on the creditor board (which UA must get clearance from), and given the massive Boeing fleet both DL and UA ha
26 Post contains images Thorben : The thought originally come from the "Seattle Post-Intelligencer". I looked there, but I didn't find it. But US has 9 A333s and ordered 10 A332s and
27 Stirling : That's FUNNY!!! All the above are true statements, but I do not believe it to be as difficult as it might appear. What I want to know is if the Press
28 N328KF : Tiny compared to Delta's Boeing widebody fleet. I was never arguing that a new Delta wouldn't do business with Airbus. I was arguing that it was sill
29 FCKC : If they want these second hand A330s , not before 2008 , perhaps they could find a deal to get the Air Canada machines.In this case , it will be A330-
30 Post contains images Osiris30 : Coudln't have said it any better (or even that well) myself.
31 HB88 : This seems all interesting news, particularly in view of the possibility of more narrowbody orders - and also coming on the day when Airbus received i
32 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Even with a spelling mistake, I'm sure you are more than intelligent enough to know I meant US.....
33 HB88 : You're quite right. But, I have heard this line of argument quite a few times in laudatory discussions of all-Boeing fleets. Unless an Airbus-only or
34 2wingtips : They lost their 2010-2012 slots, however. Boeing extended the deadline for pricing purposes, but deliveries will now be from 2013/14. Miss a 787 dead
35 Mk777 : Who's buying OS's 4 A332?? I am assuming LX is. If not, SU can get them from OS then.
36 Stitch : Fair enough. I tell you, if Boeing did half-as-well in selling during their production snafu as Airbus is during their's... Airbus's management may b
37 Glideslope : The most accurate statement to date on any Russian / EU (EADS) interactions, IMO.
38 Carpethead : It's not the best option out on the market buy why not buy more Il-96s. At least they could support the Russian aerospace market.
39 Jfk777 : Alll those Canadian A333 with Rolls engines is my bet. With Air Canada going to 777/787 I would bet one airline will take most of the lot since they a
40 N328KF : The A330-300s are going to be the last Airbus widebodies to leave the fleet, aren't they?
41 Kaitak744 : Well, apparently, Air Canada didn't find a buyer for the A340-500s, and that is why they are keeping them. The 777s will be phasing out the A330-300s
42 PM : My guess? Ex-EK. They are talking of rolling over their A330 fleet. Fingers crossed...
43 Planemanofnz : Any new destinations being thought of by SU for when they get the 330's? SIN maybe?
44 Thorben : What do they really have? 8 T7s and a lot of 767s, which are the smallest widebodies around. Did I say somewhere that they would do no business with
45 Danny : How exactly EK would "roll them over"? They are short on capacity and there is nothing they could get fast enough to replace them.
46 PM : EK announced a couple of weeks ago that they are considering replacing older A330s with new A330s. If they do then their discarded A330s would become
47 Thorben : I thought of that, too. EK has 29 A332s. How many would they "roll over"? If they did, there would be more carriers than just SU standing in line to
48 N328KF : They have eight 777s and two on order. The 777-200ERs are very new, and the 777-200LRs are for a niche that would not be appropriately filled by any
49 Thorben : I never said they would cancel existing orders. And what does Boeing have? Don't say the sgnificantly wider and longer 787. There are now new planes
50 N328KF : You strongly implied it. We all know it. The 787-8 is pretty close in size to the 767-300ER, which DL has tons of. The A321 cannot replace the 757-20
51 Stitch : It's actually pretty close to the 767-400 and A330-200 in size. It's about 20% larger then a 767-300 in cabin floor area, plus being able to add 1 or
52 N328KF : It's still closer to what DL has and needs than the A330-200. Do you really see DL flying A332s on their 767 trunk routes? That would be a lot of emp
53 Stitch : Depends on the demand curve. The 787-8 will offer better CASM then the A332 and 764 which will help them expand that curve a bit by offering lower, b
54 Thorben : It is five meters longer and has one (or two) seats more per row, that is a lot bigger. What international routes are they using 757s on? By Boeings
55 Stirling : Right. And even if they did fill the seats, as some airlines have found, using the A332 on routes that once supported the A300/B763 does not translat
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