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FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR  
User currently offlineFA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5925 times:

"Porter Airlines, whose flights from Toronto's downtown airport to Ottawa and, next month, to Montreal have sparked a holiday fare war, is "looking closely" at adding New York city as its third destination early in the new year, chief executive Robert Deluce said."

Full story at: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/f...8db-4aff-8845-c90df0325142&k=77732

(sorry if already posted, I couldn't find it if it was)

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5921 times:

IMHO, I think YTZ-LGA or EWR would be a great idea. YTZ is extremely convenient. Too bad it doesnt have US Pre-Clearance like YYZ.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5915 times:

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 1):
Too bad it doesnt have US Pre-Clearance like YYZ.

Does it have Canada Customs? I would imagine so given the amount of trans-border GA traffic, but would that be large enough to sustain 70 seats? Further, LGA's FIS is almost certainly not large enough to handle a flight that isn't pre-cleared.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5902 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
Further, LGA's FIS is almost certainly not large enough to handle a flight that isn't pre-cleared.

I'm pretty sure that LaGuardia cannot handle a flight that isn't pre-cleared, period. So YTZ-LGA is out of the question.



a.
User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5787 times:

I would imagine they are planning pre-clearance at YTZ considering they are looking at flights to LaGuardia and Midway. If they don't get pre-clearance they would be forced to use EWR and ORD.

User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5755 times:

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 4):
I would imagine they are planning pre-clearance at YTZ considering they are looking at flights to LaGuardia and Midway.

MDW has a full Customs/FIS facility and receives a variety of scheduled international flights.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineTsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 632 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5739 times:

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 4):
If they don't get pre-clearance they would be forced to use EWR and ORD.

they couls also use JFK...


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 weeks ago) and read 5699 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
I'm pretty sure that LaGuardia cannot handle a flight that isn't pre-cleared, period. So YTZ-LGA is out of the question

Technically, it has to be able to in order to recieve pre-cleared flights. LGA does have an FIS, it just happens to be too small for more than a private plane. If something did happen, they could do a full federal inspection, they would just do it very slowly.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 4):
I would imagine they are planning pre-clearance at YTZ considering they are looking at flights to LaGuardia and Midway. If they don't get pre-clearance they would be forced to use EWR and ORD.

MDW's FIS is big enough to handle a full 753.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 weeks ago) and read 5696 times:

The was an airline (I forget the name) operating as Continental Connection in the late 1980s-1990s flying DH-7s EWR-Toronto Island-Ottawa.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 weeks ago) and read 5660 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
The was an airline (I forget the name) operating as Continental Connection in the late 1980s-1990s flying DH-7s EWR-Toronto Island-Ottawa.

The most recent transborder service was CommutAir/US Airways Express in 1998 on a HPN-SYR-YTZ routing.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 843 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5618 times:

I think that only YTZ-EWR as viable. It would have to arrive at the EWR's Terminal B as it is equipt with the Customes/FIS facility. I don't think that the Yanks would want to open another PFI facility in Canada this soon after the opening of the facility at YHZ. In order to increase the viability of the service Porter could get CO to codeshare on the flight.


--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineChalliday From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5485 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
I'm pretty sure that LaGuardia cannot handle a flight that isn't pre-cleared, period.

You'd be correct, YHZ Only just got a flight to LGA with AE thanks to the new pre-clearance area just opened at YHZ.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5474 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
The was an airline (I forget the name) operating as Continental Connection in the late 1980s-1990s flying DH-7s EWR-Toronto Island-Ottawa.

City Express.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5429 times:

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 6):
they couls also use JFK...

This route would cater to business travelers, JFK is not a very popular airport for business travelers which is why there is such paltry service from JFK to major business centers such as Toronto, Chicago etc compared to EWR or LGA.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineYow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5361 times:

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 10):
In order to increase the viability of the service Porter could get CO to codeshare on the flight.

But with several YYZ-EWR flights daily, I doubt CO would want to fragment their own market.

While Porter will eventually be serving all their 'future' destinations, but as an armchair network planner, I think YQG is the best choice as their third city. A single (their 5th overall) aircraft would give them 5 roundtrips a day on YQG-YTZ. YQG would also give them access to 30,000 potential connecting onward pax to YOW and YUL. Since both YOW and YUL have multiple daily flights to NYC, Porter can expect to attract very few YOW/YUL-NYC O&D pax.

Given Jazz is the only game in town for YQGers, there is a lot less competition there than at EWR. But, like I said eventually, Porter will be serving all of these cities.

[Edited 2006-11-29 18:42:05]

User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 5):
MDW has a full Customs/FIS facility and receives a variety of scheduled international flights.

I stand corrected. I had thought MDW was solely domestic but forgot about sun destination international flights.


User currently offlineFly2yyz From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1046 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5269 times:

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 15):

I stand corrected. I had thought MDW was solely domestic but forgot about sun destination international flights.

Not forgetting to mention that C6, had a short run of flying to MDW from YYZ.


User currently offlineYOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5255 times:

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 16):
Not forgetting to mention that C6, had a short run of flying to MDW from YYZ.

Don't forget that during C6's brief appearance at MDW, they would have used pre-clearance at YYZ. That 2000 YYZ departure 1x/day didn't make much sense.


User currently offlineFly2yyz From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1046 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5240 times:

Quoting YOW (Reply 17):

Don't forget that during C6's brief appearance at MDW, they would have used pre-clearance at YYZ. That 2000 YYZ departure 1x/day didn't make much sense.

It didn't at all! I remember only 4 or 5 passengers coming off the flight! Was incredible to see how MDW couldnt support the service, then again there wasn't much promotion.


User currently offlineCs03 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 413 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5201 times:
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In November 1991, I flew EWR/YTZ/EWR on Air Ontario. Aircraft was DH8-300.

User currently offlineMultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5175 times:

Quoting Yow (Reply 14):
...Given Jazz is the only game in town for YQGers, there is a lot less competition there than at EWR. But, like I said eventually, Porter will be serving all of these cities.

You're making the assumption that Porter will be around long enough to add service to all of those cities. Given the amount of discounting they are doing, one has to wonder.


User currently offlineYOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5091 times:

Quoting Multimark (Reply 20):
Given the amount of discounting they are doing, one has to wonder.

Porter is one of the best capitalized start-ups ever. They very well may only be second to JetBlue.

Porter's discounts are for the Christmas-New Year's holdiay period when biz pax (PD's bread & butter) disappear for 3 weeks. Porter will still be maintaining 5 YOW-YTZ daily roundtrips over this period. Compare this to AC who for the past couple of years when they were still operating at YTZ stopped all operations outright over Christmas.

Porter's $69 one-way discounts are only matching WS & AC. It's not like they're selling $1 transcontinental fares like some bankrupt lime-green smiley-faced airline used to do.

I would hardly call the below fares for tomorrow's flights deeply-discounted.

Departing Flight
Ottawa (YOW) to Toronto (YTZ)
Friday, Dec 01, 2006
Flight# Depart Arrive Firm Flexible Freedom
246 07:00 08:00 $142 $332 $383
248 08:30 09:30 $99 $172 $252
250 10:00 11:00 $99 $172 $252
252 11:30 12:30 $99 $172 $252
254 13:00 14:00 $99 $172 $252
256 14:30 15:30 $142 $172 $252
258 16:00 17:00 $152 $248 $328
260 17:30 18:30 $152 $332 $383
262 19:00 20:00 $99 $172 $252
264 20:30 21:30 $99 $172 $252

Previous Day Next DayReturn Flight
Toronto (YTZ) to Ottawa (YOW)
Friday, Dec 01, 2006
Flight# Depart Arrive Firm Flexible Freedom
245 07:00 07:56 $99 $172 $252
247 08:30 09:26 $99 $172 $252
249 10:00 10:56 $99 $172 $252
251 11:30 12:26 $142 $172 $252
253 13:00 13:56 $142 $172 $252
255 14:30 15:26 $152 $234 $314
257 16:00 16:56 $152 $332 $383
259 17:30 18:26 $142 $332 $383
261 19:00 19:56 $152 $332 $383
263 20:30 21:26 $99 $172 $252


User currently offlineMultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5030 times:

Quoting YOW (Reply 21):
Porter is one of the best capitalized start-ups ever. They very well may only be second to JetBlue.

Yes, we've heard that before. But it doesn't take long to burn through a lot of capital in the airline industry. Porter has been offering various promotional fares since day 1.


User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

Quoting Multimark (Reply 22):

Yes, we've heard that before. But it doesn't take long to burn through a lot of capital in the airline industry.

Not to mention the number of diversions to YYZ are very high. In the fall and winter there are many days with low ceilings slightly below minimums at YTZ plus fog off the water. For the past month almost every week they have had a day or two full of YYZ diversions. If the same passenger gets diverted more than once in a 6 month period they will be hard customers to get back. Why book to fly from YTZ if it ends up late out of YYZ frequently. Porter can't land on contaminated runways at YTZ either so any days hovering around -7C to 0C with precipitation might cause delays as well. They should have started operations in the spring when the airport has fewer weather issues to build up loyalty and they really need to push Transport Canada for a better ILS to afford lower minimums.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4977 times:

Quoting Yow (Reply 14):
I think YQG is the best choice as their third city.

I disagree. How many business people in YQG need to be downtown Toronto? Or vice-versa. Not many I think. Air Ontario tried YTZ-YQG and it did not last.

Quoting Yow (Reply 17):
Don't forget that during C6's brief appearance at MDW, they would have used pre-clearance at YYZ. That 2000 YYZ departure 1x/day didn't make much sense.

C6 started with 2x daily YYZ-MDW, then reduced to 1x daily. Initially this departure was late afternoon, then 2000.

Quoting Cs03 (Reply 19):
I flew EWR/YTZ/EWR on Air Ontario. Aircraft was DH8-300.

Sure it was a -300? I don't recall GX flying the -300 into YTZ. Anyway, their network then was YTZ-YOW/YUL/EWR.

Quoting Multimark (Reply 20):
You're making the assumption that Porter will be around long enough to add service to all of those cities. Given the amount of discounting they are doing, one has to wonder.

Their load factors, by all anecdotal accounts, are dismal. Despite the discounting. Suggests strongly that the Q400 was the wrong aircraft.

Quoting Yow (Reply 21):
Porter is one of the best capitalized start-ups ever. They very well may only be second to JetBlue.

They still need to generate operating profits.

Quoting Yow (Reply 21):
Porter's discounts are for the Christmas-New Year's holdiay period when biz pax (PD's bread & butter) disappear for 3 weeks. Porter will still be maintaining 5 YOW-YTZ daily roundtrips over this period.

The Q400 rents will not decline during this xmas period.

Porter should be working like crazy to bring on more corporate clients for YOW/YUL. Does not seem like they're having much success to date.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
25 Sebring : But buy in advance and the fare falls to $68 each way, and if you use the promo code FAMI, it falls to $34 each way until after the Christmas-New Yea
26 Salomon : According to a frequent flyer from another forum, the FA told him that the breakeven was 23 passengers per flight (70 seats). She (the FA) also said
27 DC10sRULE : What other aircraft would offer 70 seater potential revenues with 37 seater operating costs? I don't think Porter would be saving much if they decide
28 YOW : Well the Ottawa-Toronto route's O&D is about 900,000 or around 2,450 per day and probably more like 2,500-3,000 on weekdays. If Porter can grab marke
29 Kiramakora : Question: what flights from Canada do not pre-clear US Customs in the land of the Cannucks? I remember Halifax. Any other examples? Thanks and good lu
30 YOW : Pretty much any airport which does not have US Customs Pre-Clearance. YHZ now has pre-clearance. Canadian airports with daily year-round Transborder
31 Kiramakora : Thank you for this.
32 Post contains images Olympus69 : Did you figure that out all by yourself, or did you have help?
33 Post contains images YOW : Did it off the top of my head. Did I miss anything?
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