PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3085 posts, RR: 89 Posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5635 times:
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An interesting report from ATI
According to a report carried in ATI AirBridge Cargo, a subsidiary or Vloga Dnepr are on the verge of ordering "several" B747-8F which would take sales for the 748-F to over 50 units.
OU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5596 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter): According to a report carried in ATI AirBridge Cargo, a subsidiary or Vloga Dnepr are on the verge of ordering "several" B747-8F which would take sales for the 748-F to over 50 units.
Holy $hit !
50 units
That's a lot of revenue . PamAm , you may want to add the 50 units to the thread title .
PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3085 posts, RR: 89 Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5517 times:
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Quoting OU812 (Reply 1): That's a lot of revenue . PamAm , you may want to add the 50 units to the thread title .
Hi OU812, No there are already 44 747-8F units sold so this implies that AirBridge intend to order 6 or more and total sales for the 747-8F variant will be over 50 by year end. Nor does that include KE who have not been booked firm yet. I did not say AirBridge would order 50, but "several" of the variant. 747-8F order book stands as follows;
10 x Cargolux plus 10 purchase rights
8 x NCA plus 6 options
12 x Atlas Air plus 12 options
10 x EK Skycargo plus 10 purchase rights
4 x Guggenheim Aviation Partners
5 x Korean Air plus 2 options
49 firm orders plus 40 options / purchase rights. Not bad for the launch year.
OU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5429 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 3): Hi OU812, No there are already 44 747-8F units sold so this implies that AirBridge intend to order 6 or more and total sales for the 747-8F variant will be over 50 by year end. Nor does that include KE who have not been booked firm yet. I did not say AirBridge would order 50, but "several" of the variant. 747-8F order book stands as follows;
Boeing begins moving assembly line for the 777
The Boeing Co. (Seattle, Wash.) has started using a moving assembly line for the first time to build its market-leading 777 jetliner. For now, the moving assembly line is used only during final assembly positions for the airplane, moving it at a steady pace of 1.6 inches per minute during production.
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 3): 49 firm orders plus 40 options / purchase rights. Not bad for the launch year.
Agreed !
That would mean if Boeing used the Airbus method of counting orders . Boeing would have close to 100 orders for the 747-8F !
PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3085 posts, RR: 89 Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5347 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 9): It is if demand warrants it. And with the line sold out until at least 2010, it appears demand does.
An interesting note as an aside. We have now seen EK & KE both go with the 777F and the 747-8F. Two top tier carriers that have large PAX and Cargo operations. By going with both models, this could allow flexibilty to order the 747-8i or -F and convert from one variant to the other, if needed. This may help Boeing in securing 747-8i orders as demand for the -F is considerable and if an order is made for the PAX variant and then not needed it could be converted to the -F. Just a thought.
Beech19 From United States, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4969 times:
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11): The 747 assembly line has been "moving" for some time now.
Um... no they aren't. A "moving line" and "move the aircraft to different slots for furthur production" are not the same. 747 and 767 are BOTH on slanted production for final assembly. 737 and 777 are the only ones using a moving line for Final Assembly. As far as the 787 goes, we shall call it "moving factory" not "moving line." I wish i could say more...
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4924 times:
Quoting Beech19 (Reply 16): A "moving line" and "move the aircraft to different slots for furthur production" are not the same. 747 and 767 are BOTH on slanted production for final assembly.
No, both the 767 (since 2002) and 747 (since 2003) are assembled on the same type of moving line pioneered with the 717. FWIW, the 757 was assembled on a moving line from 2002 as well.
Continuous Innovation -- 767 Program Begins Moving-Line Process
EVERETT, Wash., March 20, 2002 -- The moving line and related changes were adapted from automotive lean manufacturing methods in Japan. And while moving lines in airplane production are not new, what is new is the fusion of moving lines with lean manufacturing techniques. A continuously moving assembly line slowly moves products from one assembly team to the next. This technique keeps production moving at a steady pace, allowing employees to gauge status at a glance and reduce the amount of work-in-process inventory.
Sorry, I haven't been succesful finding a press release announcing the conversion of the 747 production to a "moving" assembly line, but I've seen it in action with my own eyes.
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 3979 posts, RR: 45 Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4916 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 13): An interesting note as an aside. We have now seen EK & KE both go with the 777F and the 747-8F. Two top tier carriers that have large PAX and Cargo operations. By going with both models, this could allow flexibilty to order the 747-8i or -F and convert from one variant to the other, if needed. This may help Boeing in securing 747-8i orders as demand for the -F is considerable and if an order is made for the PAX variant and then not needed it could be converted to the -F. Just a thought.
Certainly an interesting thought. However, there is one thing to consider in regards to the 748i: slot availability. The current -8F orders should already cover most of the first 2-3 years of production, which should make it harder by the day to place any (large) -8i orders. Just a thought.
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 16088 posts, RR: 64 Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4781 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 13): We have now seen EK & KE both go with the 777F and the 747-8F...By going with both models, this could allow flexibility to order the 747-8i or -F and convert from one variant to the other, if needed. This may help Boeing in securing 747-8i orders as demand for the -F is considerable and if an order is made for the PAX variant and then not needed it could be converted to the -F.
It is possible, but I find it more likely that it could help 748 orders in maximizing the life of the airframe within the airline, first by using it as a passenger carrier for a decade or two and then converting it to a cargo model and running it as a freighter for another decade or two.
Does anyone know if Boeing is designing future freighter conversion ability into the passenger model? Something to make the conversion much quicker and cheaper? I imagine actual physical reinforcement of the floor and such would not be desirable due to the extra weight, but what if Boeing designed in the mounting points for such reinforcement? Yes, it adds a few "hundred" pounds now, but not the "thousands" full reinforcement would and it would make the conversion quicker and less expensive.
Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 18): Certainly an interesting thought (PanAm_DC10). However, there is one thing to consider in regards to the 748i: slot availability. The current -8F orders should already cover most of the first 2-3 years of production, which should make it harder by the day to place any (large) -8i orders. Just a thought.
Well the 748I won't be available until 2010, and Boeing or potential customers could be holding slots on the production line to accommodate 748I deliveries. If no orders happen, then Boeing can accelerate 748F deliveries, but the freight haulers themselves may not want their entire fleet delivered over a period of a few months and may themselves prefer a more leisurely delivery schedule which leaves openings for Boeing to slot in 748Is.
Lokey123 From Barbados, joined May 2006, 137 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4772 times:
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 17): No, both the 767 (since 2002) and 747 (since 2003) are assembled on the same type of moving line pioneered with the 717. FWIW, the 757 was assembled on a moving line from 2002 as well
I am afraid that is incorrect, as Beech19 mentioned both the 747 and 767 are on a slant production line contrary to what that excerpt mentions. I was visting the Everett facility two weeks ago and both of those types were still using the slant production method.
Beech19 From United States, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4 Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4773 times:
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 17): Sorry, I haven't been succesful finding a press release announcing the conversion of the 747 production to a "moving" assembly line, but I've seen it in action with my own eyes.
Not trying to be argumentative or anything but i'm not sure the last time you were in there... but i'm there all the time. And as of last week both aircraft are using slant and have been for some time.
I remember that press release you referred too but i also remember hearing something that is wasn't working out for the legacy aircraft and so they went back to slant.
I shall ask someone... calling right now...
Okay... my father-in-law who works on the 747 has confirmed. They tried the 747 and 767 moving lines for about 9 months. They was then canceled because it was not working out for them. They are back on slant and have been for over 2 years. There is still no official decision on doing the 748 on moving line but they are toying with the idea of introducing 767 moving line again, but with some changes.
Thanx for the information. I was last in the plant in January 2004, when there was one 747F airframe on the moving line, the place did indeed look barren. I saw the 767 assembly line in action in early 2003 as well, when there were two airframes on the moving line. Perhaps Boeing decided to go back "on the slant" because of the relatively low production rates on these lines? I'm sure the tracks and other towing apparatus necessary for the moving lines remain in the floor of the respective bays of the factory allowing for rapid conversion should management decide to resume "moving" assembly in the future.
Beech19 From United States, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4642 times:
Quoting Md95 (Reply 22): Let's make it easy. If you see a tractor pulling an aircraft that's NOT a "moving line"
Thats actually a good point... the picture above of the 767 is actually NOT on a moving line but its a completed aircraft getting pulled out of the factory. The moving line still has TONS of rigs and stuff all over the aircraft just has a self powered tow that follows a white line on the floor via optics.
PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3085 posts, RR: 89 Reply 25, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3101 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 19): It is possible, but I find it more likely that it could help 748 orders in maximizing the life of the airframe within the airline, first by using it as a passenger carrier for a decade or two and then converting it to a cargo model and running it as a freighter for another decade or two.
It's a valid point, but I'll ask the following. Does the extended upper deck on the 748i make it more difficult to come up with an conversion program similar to the 744BCF? If not, then it maybe harder to come up with such a conversion program.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 19): Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 18):
Certainly an interesting thought (PanAm_DC10). However, there is one thing to consider in regards to the 748i: slot availability. The current -8F orders should already cover most of the first 2-3 years of production, which should make it harder by the day to place any (large) -8i orders. Just a thought.
Well the 748I won't be available until 2010, and Boeing or potential customers could be holding slots on the production line to accommodate 748I deliveries. If no orders happen, then Boeing can accelerate 748F deliveries, but the freight haulers themselves may not want their entire fleet delivered over a period of a few months and may themselves prefer a more leisurely delivery schedule which leaves openings for Boeing to slot in 748Is.
Exactly, IIRC Atlas Air have the most 2010 slots booked firm but if you look at NCA their 8 frames start delivery from 2009 through to 2012 with the options covering 2011 through 2014.
Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
26 Brendows: I don't think so. The fuse plug that extends the 748i is placed behind on the door on upper deck. After reading other members comments about the modi
27 Coa747: 50 orders is an impressive achievement especially when you consider how much longer the A380F has been available for sale. The 747-8F vs. A380F is beg
28 Centrair: Oh with AirBridge ordering this, that means for sure NGO will see 748s. I won't see A380s unless its a diversion or UPS Cargo. Seeing a new Large airc
29 Leelaw: Merely for purposes of illustration: RENTON, Wash., Aug. 15, 2002 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] this week began assembling 757s on a moving assemb
30 Beech19: Thanks for posting the pics... i don't know why i was having such a hard time finding them... lol I beleive the "white line/track" is on the floor st
31 Zvezda: It tends to confirm half of your theory. It doesn't tend to either confirm or refute the other half. Since very large passenger aircraft have not bee
32 PanAm_DC10: Courtesy of Flight International; Russian carrier aims to expand fleet as it bids to cement position in freighter market AirBridge Cargo (ABC) is fina
33 Beech19: "ABC is taking two more 747-200Fs and the first of two new-build 747-400ERFs next year, with the second aircraft following in February 2008. But Wraig
34 PanAm_DC10: Guggenheim Aviation Partners should have 1 free 744ERF available, the other 2 they are getting via GECAS Regards, PanAm_DC10
35 Beech19: I see the order from GECAS on 10/27/2005 for 2 x 744ERF. Guggenheim has 6 unfilled 744ERF orders. Assuming 1 is for ABC... who are the other 5 for?
36 PanAm_DC10: Just going from memory they are for the following and one has taken a 3rd but I can't recall which. 2 x Bluebird Cargo 2 x TNT Cargo Regards, PanAm_D
38 Hamlet69: I believe KLM has contracted for one of Guggenheim's as well. This would mean that neither of the two above are getting a third frame, or ABC will ha
39 PanAm_DC10: No, thank Hamlet69, he is correct. I checked my records and TNT were to take a 3rd, but didn't. KLM indeed took the 5th 744ERF, though TNT sometimes
40 Beech19: Well there we go. Thanks Hamlet! PanAm...
41 PanAm_DC10: On the day this thread was posted 5 x 747-8F were booked as UFO now that Boeing have updated their website. Upon consideration, the publication which
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