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AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 89
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8850 times:
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An interesting report from ATI

According to a report carried in ATI AirBridge Cargo, a subsidiary or Vloga Dnepr are on the verge of ordering "several" B747-8F which would take sales for the 748-F to over 50 units.

[END - Fair use excerpt http://www.rati.com/ subscriber only service ]

States that order should be made prior to year end.

Regards, PanAm_DC10


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8811 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
According to a report carried in ATI AirBridge Cargo, a subsidiary or Vloga Dnepr are on the verge of ordering "several" B747-8F which would take sales for the 748-F to over 50 units.

Holy $hit !

50 units  eyepopping 

That's a lot of revenue . PamAm , you may want to add the 50 units to the thread title .


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8787 times:

Confirms my theory that if you need a big plane you order 748 for cargo and A388 for pax.

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 89
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8732 times:
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COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting OU812 (Reply 1):
That's a lot of revenue . PamAm , you may want to add the 50 units to the thread title .

Hi OU812, No there are already 44 747-8F units sold so this implies that AirBridge intend to order 6 or more and total sales for the 747-8F variant will be over 50 by year end. Nor does that include KE who have not been booked firm yet. I did not say AirBridge would order 50, but "several" of the variant. 747-8F order book stands as follows;

10 x Cargolux plus 10 purchase rights
8 x NCA plus 6 options
12 x Atlas Air plus 12 options
10 x EK Skycargo plus 10 purchase rights
4 x Guggenheim Aviation Partners
5 x Korean Air plus 2 options

49 firm orders plus 40 options / purchase rights. Not bad for the launch year.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8722 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 2):
Confirms my theory that if you need a big plane you order 748 for cargo and A388 for pax.

Well, I half agree with you.  Wink



336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8723 times:

Has Boeing speculated what the production rate might be - are we looking at a couple of years production here?

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30984 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8709 times:
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For an old dog "cornered" by cheaper conversions, the 747F new-build program still soldiers on.

Is the 747F line going to four deliveries per month? If so, this will order will push them over the amount needed to sell out 2010.


User currently offlineW3ndytj4n From Indonesia, joined Feb 2006, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8671 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Is the 747F line going to four deliveries per month?

Is this necessary for a freighter plane?

w3ndy



Wendy Tjan
User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8644 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 3):
Hi OU812, No there are already 44 747-8F units sold so this implies that AirBridge intend to order 6 or more and total sales for the 747-8F variant will be over 50 by year end. Nor does that include KE who have not been booked firm yet. I did not say AirBridge would order 50, but "several" of the variant. 747-8F order book stands as follows;

Oh !


 blush 


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30984 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8626 times:
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Quoting W3ndytj4n (Reply 7):
Is this necessary for a freighter plane?

It is if demand warrants it. And with the line sold out until at least 2010, it appears demand does.  Smile


User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8601 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 5):
Has Boeing speculated what the production rate might be - are we looking at a couple of years production here?

Curious,
Will Boeing be utilizing the moving assembly line for the 747-8F ?

http://www.compositesworld.com/news/cwweekly/2006/November/cw110808

Boeing begins moving assembly line for the 777
The Boeing Co. (Seattle, Wash.) has started using a moving assembly line for the first time to build its market-leading 777 jetliner. For now, the moving assembly line is used only during final assembly positions for the airplane, moving it at a steady pace of 1.6 inches per minute during production.


Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 3):
49 firm orders plus 40 options / purchase rights. Not bad for the launch year.

Agreed !
That would mean if Boeing used the Airbus method of counting orders . Boeing would have close to 100 orders for the 747-8F !  biggrin 


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8578 times:

Quoting OU812 (Reply 10):
Will Boeing be utilizing the moving assembly line for the 747-8F

The 747 assembly line has been "moving" for some time now.


User currently offlineW3ndytj4n From Indonesia, joined Feb 2006, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8574 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
And with the line sold out until at least 2010

Wow, good news for Boeing. For the time being, Looks like, Boeing have a better freighter plane compare to Airbus. With 747F and 777F.

When is the EIS for 748F?


w3ndy



Wendy Tjan
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 89
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8562 times:
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COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
It is if demand warrants it. And with the line sold out until at least 2010, it appears demand does.

An interesting note as an aside. We have now seen EK & KE both go with the 777F and the 747-8F. Two top tier carriers that have large PAX and Cargo operations. By going with both models, this could allow flexibilty to order the 747-8i or -F and convert from one variant to the other, if needed. This may help Boeing in securing 747-8i orders as demand for the -F is considerable and if an order is made for the PAX variant and then not needed it could be converted to the -F. Just a thought.

Don't worry OU812 these things happen  Smile

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineBrendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8484 times:

Quoting W3ndytj4n (Reply 12):
When is the EIS for 748F?

EIS will be in the later part of the second half of 2009.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8379 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11):
Quoting OU812 (Reply 10):
Will Boeing be utilizing the moving assembly line for the 747-8F

The 747 assembly line has been "moving" for some time now.

For that matter, all Boeing products in production are on a moving line or in the process of being converted to one:

747
767
737NG
777 (conversion taking place as of Nov 2006)


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8184 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11):
The 747 assembly line has been "moving" for some time now.

Um... no they aren't. A "moving line" and "move the aircraft to different slots for furthur production" are not the same. 747 and 767 are BOTH on slanted production for final assembly. 737 and 777 are the only ones using a moving line for Final Assembly. As far as the 787 goes, we shall call it "moving factory" not "moving line." I wish i could say more...



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User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8139 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 16):
A "moving line" and "move the aircraft to different slots for furthur production" are not the same. 747 and 767 are BOTH on slanted production for final assembly.

No, both the 767 (since 2002) and 747 (since 2003) are assembled on the same type of moving line pioneered with the 717. FWIW, the 757 was assembled on a moving line from 2002 as well.



Continuous Innovation -- 767 Program Begins Moving-Line Process

EVERETT, Wash., March 20, 2002 -- The moving line and related changes were adapted from automotive lean manufacturing methods in Japan. And while moving lines in airplane production are not new, what is new is the fusion of moving lines with lean manufacturing techniques. A continuously moving assembly line slowly moves products from one assembly team to the next. This technique keeps production moving at a steady pace, allowing employees to gauge status at a glance and reduce the amount of work-in-process inventory.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...02/photorelease/q1/pr_020320g.html

Sorry, I haven't been succesful finding a press release announcing the conversion of the 747 production to a "moving" assembly line, but I've seen it in action with my own eyes.

Sorry for all the edits.

[Edited 2006-11-30 19:10:21]

[Edited 2006-11-30 19:11:17]

[Edited 2006-11-30 19:14:53]

[Edited 2006-11-30 19:16:53]

User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4161 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8131 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 13):
An interesting note as an aside. We have now seen EK & KE both go with the 777F and the 747-8F. Two top tier carriers that have large PAX and Cargo operations. By going with both models, this could allow flexibilty to order the 747-8i or -F and convert from one variant to the other, if needed. This may help Boeing in securing 747-8i orders as demand for the -F is considerable and if an order is made for the PAX variant and then not needed it could be converted to the -F. Just a thought.

Certainly an interesting thought. However, there is one thing to consider in regards to the 748i: slot availability. The current -8F orders should already cover most of the first 2-3 years of production, which should make it harder by the day to place any (large) -8i orders. Just a thought.



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User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30984 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7996 times:
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Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 13):
We have now seen EK & KE both go with the 777F and the 747-8F...By going with both models, this could allow flexibility to order the 747-8i or -F and convert from one variant to the other, if needed. This may help Boeing in securing 747-8i orders as demand for the -F is considerable and if an order is made for the PAX variant and then not needed it could be converted to the -F.

It is possible, but I find it more likely that it could help 748 orders in maximizing the life of the airframe within the airline, first by using it as a passenger carrier for a decade or two and then converting it to a cargo model and running it as a freighter for another decade or two.

Does anyone know if Boeing is designing future freighter conversion ability into the passenger model? Something to make the conversion much quicker and cheaper? I imagine actual physical reinforcement of the floor and such would not be desirable due to the extra weight, but what if Boeing designed in the mounting points for such reinforcement? Yes, it adds a few "hundred" pounds now, but not the "thousands" full reinforcement would and it would make the conversion quicker and less expensive.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 18):
Certainly an interesting thought (PanAm_DC10). However, there is one thing to consider in regards to the 748i: slot availability. The current -8F orders should already cover most of the first 2-3 years of production, which should make it harder by the day to place any (large) -8i orders. Just a thought.

Well the 748I won't be available until 2010, and Boeing or potential customers could be holding slots on the production line to accommodate 748I deliveries. If no orders happen, then Boeing can accelerate 748F deliveries, but the freight haulers themselves may not want their entire fleet delivered over a period of a few months and may themselves prefer a more leisurely delivery schedule which leaves openings for Boeing to slot in 748Is.


User currently offlineLokey123 From Barbados, joined May 2006, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7987 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 17):
No, both the 767 (since 2002) and 747 (since 2003) are assembled on the same type of moving line pioneered with the 717. FWIW, the 757 was assembled on a moving line from 2002 as well

I am afraid that is incorrect, as Beech19 mentioned both the 747 and 767 are on a slant production line contrary to what that excerpt mentions. I was visting the Everett facility two weeks ago and both of those types were still using the slant production method.


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7988 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 17):
Sorry, I haven't been succesful finding a press release announcing the conversion of the 747 production to a "moving" assembly line, but I've seen it in action with my own eyes.

Not trying to be argumentative or anything but i'm not sure the last time you were in there... but i'm there all the time. And as of last week both aircraft are using slant and have been for some time.
I remember that press release you referred too but i also remember hearing something that is wasn't working out for the legacy aircraft and so they went back to slant.

I shall ask someone... calling right now...

Okay... my father-in-law who works on the 747 has confirmed. They tried the 747 and 767 moving lines for about 9 months. They was then canceled because it was not working out for them. They are back on slant and have been for over 2 years. There is still no official decision on doing the 748 on moving line but they are toying with the idea of introducing 767 moving line again, but with some changes.



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineMd95 From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7915 times:

Let's make it easy. If you see a tractor pulling an aircraft that's NOT a "moving line"


dario
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7885 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 21):

Thanx for the information. I was last in the plant in January 2004, when there was one 747F airframe on the moving line, the place did indeed look barren. I saw the 767 assembly line in action in early 2003 as well, when there were two airframes on the moving line. Perhaps Boeing decided to go back "on the slant" because of the relatively low production rates on these lines? I'm sure the tracks and other towing apparatus necessary for the moving lines remain in the floor of the respective bays of the factory allowing for rapid conversion should management decide to resume "moving" assembly in the future.


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7857 times:

Quoting Md95 (Reply 22):
Let's make it easy. If you see a tractor pulling an aircraft that's NOT a "moving line"

Thats actually a good point... the picture above of the 767 is actually NOT on a moving line but its a completed aircraft getting pulled out of the factory. The moving line still has TONS of rigs and stuff all over the aircraft just has a self powered tow that follows a white line on the floor via optics.



KPAE via KBVY
25 PanAm_DC10 : It's a valid point, but I'll ask the following. Does the extended upper deck on the 748i make it more difficult to come up with an conversion program
26 Post contains images Brendows : I don't think so. The fuse plug that extends the 748i is placed behind on the door on upper deck. After reading other members comments about the modi
27 Coa747 : 50 orders is an impressive achievement especially when you consider how much longer the A380F has been available for sale. The 747-8F vs. A380F is beg
28 Centrair : Oh with AirBridge ordering this, that means for sure NGO will see 748s. I won't see A380s unless its a diversion or UPS Cargo. Seeing a new Large airc
29 Post contains links and images Leelaw : Merely for purposes of illustration: RENTON, Wash., Aug. 15, 2002 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] this week began assembling 757s on a moving assemb
30 Beech19 : Thanks for posting the pics... i don't know why i was having such a hard time finding them... lol I beleive the "white line/track" is on the floor st
31 Zvezda : It tends to confirm half of your theory. It doesn't tend to either confirm or refute the other half. Since very large passenger aircraft have not bee
32 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : Courtesy of Flight International; Russian carrier aims to expand fleet as it bids to cement position in freighter market AirBridge Cargo (ABC) is fina
33 Post contains links Beech19 : "ABC is taking two more 747-200Fs and the first of two new-build 747-400ERFs next year, with the second aircraft following in February 2008. But Wraig
34 PanAm_DC10 : Guggenheim Aviation Partners should have 1 free 744ERF available, the other 2 they are getting via GECAS Regards, PanAm_DC10
35 Beech19 : I see the order from GECAS on 10/27/2005 for 2 x 744ERF. Guggenheim has 6 unfilled 744ERF orders. Assuming 1 is for ABC... who are the other 5 for?
36 PanAm_DC10 : Just going from memory they are for the following and one has taken a 3rd but I can't recall which. 2 x Bluebird Cargo 2 x TNT Cargo Regards, PanAm_D
37 Post contains images Beech19 : Thanks.
38 Post contains images Hamlet69 : I believe KLM has contracted for one of Guggenheim's as well. This would mean that neither of the two above are getting a third frame, or ABC will ha
39 PanAm_DC10 : No, thank Hamlet69, he is correct. I checked my records and TNT were to take a 3rd, but didn't. KLM indeed took the 5th 744ERF, though TNT sometimes
40 Post contains images Beech19 : Well there we go. Thanks Hamlet! PanAm...
41 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : On the day this thread was posted 5 x 747-8F were booked as UFO now that Boeing have updated their website. Upon consideration, the publication which
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