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Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update  
User currently offlineExpress1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9076 times:

This is a update from Flight global.com

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ber+Gol-Legacy+collision+over.html

hope its of use


dave

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13204 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9043 times:

Interesting - now we can blame this terrible accident on a computer program glitch? This possibility also points out the limits of computers and their programs. Humans prepare these programs and many not recognize all of their potential flaws when put into use. Then that there is nothing like a human to be involved in real decisions and to make sure they are carried out properly. The communications blackout areas of Brazil where these aircraft were operating is also unacceptable and compounded the computer flaws.
Hopefully we learn from this accident that there are limits to computers and humans in ATC and we need to correct such weaknesses throughout the world.


User currently offlineExpress1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9009 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):

Why do we wait until something like this happens and then correct the problem afterwards surely somebody should of known about the flew in the computer system by observing the systems behavior.

correct me if i'm wrong.

dave


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8966 times:

... still doesn't explain why TCAS failed.

User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8882 times:

@ltbewr:

Woah there partner easy on the computers and evil vibe, you'll use it all up.  Wink

I would wager the computers make far fewer mistakes than humans doing the same jobs. Look at autopilot system for example. I feel far better having the computer do the flying from A to B.

Computers don't get distracted, tired, cranky and rarely do they get sick. The problem isn't computers.

Now before I get lynched for saying that, I don't think it reasonable to have a computer only system. Computer systems do fail, just like their human counterparts. Having both is the best of both worlds.

Now onto what the problem is with computers... Software. Specifically software devlopment tools. I don't want to say methodologies, because there are plenty of theoretically strong design methodologies. As someone who has worked in the industry professionally for 15 years (yes I was a wizz kid in the glory days) I want to reinforce just how hard it is to do software well.

The root of the problem is in large complex projects (which even the simplist software has become thanks to feature creep and an ever growing set of expectations placed on it by endusers).

Unlike other forms of engineering, software just annot be simplified and compartmentalized as easily. Look at building an aircraft for example. Sure, that's hard too, but believe it or not, there are infinitely fewer variables. For example once youchose your material and its tolerances, you can relatively easily test for them (weight, strength, alloy content, etc). With software its never just 3 variables.

We are very quickly approaching (or maybe we have passed) the point where something new is going to have to be done from a fundamental perspective to aid software development. Projects today are just so complex no one person can visualize the entire system at a level that's reasonable detailed. Add to that clumnsy tools (imagine if you had to design an aircraft using only text. Or imagine design an aircraft and having a scope of vision 1 rivet hole wide. That's what us software guys have to deal with. We can see maybe 50 lines out of several million at one time)

Generally when we (humans) can't see the whole problem/project is when we make mistakes. Add to that the fact that software I'd driven via data, that once corrupted by one area of the software stays that way, well you get the idea. Back to my plane example, if someone makes a small mistake it can be compensated for elsewhere, or may not even be an issue in practical terms. The same isn't the case for software. We're right or wrong there. I guess its the binary nature of the beast.

Anyway just some food for thought. Admittedly a bit off topic and probably rife with typos as I'm posting from my blackberry while on my way to work (see computers ARE good  Wink )

Regards.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12289 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8799 times:
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So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...


“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8796 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 5):
So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...

Unecessary comment...

Rgs,


User currently offlineCgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8761 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 5):
So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Unecessary comment...

Rgs,

Maybe a little inappropriate, but it sure is starting to look like the truth as the investigation progresses.

C-GAGN



Widebodies flown on: A330-300,A340-300,A380-800,747-400,767-200ER,767-300ER,777-200A,777-200ER,777-200LR,777-300ER
User currently offlineAA54Heavy From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8750 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 5):
So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...

Unecessary comment...

Rgs,

No unnecessary at all......the Brazillians detained the American pilots, and there was almost a revolt against them by the public/gov immediately blaming them and pointing the finger.......now it looks like there are other factors.......how odd....



Roger that, turning to our "other" left
User currently offlineLVTMB From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8676 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 5):
So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...

Unecessary comment...

Maybe I am missing something. Whay would you say that? From the onset of the investigation blaming fingers were pointed at the US pilots, even before the dust had cleared. They were actually detained and their passports confiscated (By the way, have they been released?) It is now becoming clearer that Brazilian air traffic control seems to have failed (either a controller, or the programing of a computer system or its design -- computers usually don't make mistakes by themselves). Wouldn't you agree?

By the way, where are those US pilots?

MB


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8670 times:

Quoting AA54Heavy (Reply 8):
No unnecessary at all......the Brazillians detained the American pilots, and there was almost a revolt against them by the public/gov immediately blaming them and pointing the finger.......now it looks like there are other factors.......how odd....

Yes, but we still do not know why the Legacy's transponder was turned off, please correct me if I am wrong.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
... still doesn't explain why TCAS failed.

Didn't the transponder being off also prevent TCAS from working.

I don't think this clears the American pilots, but spreads the blame around.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8641 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
Yes, but we still do not know why the Legacy's transponder was turned off, please correct me if I am wrong.



Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
Didn't the transponder being off also prevent TCAS from working.

100% Correct.

Rgs,


User currently offlineFlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8580 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
Yes, but we still do not know why the Legacy's transponder was turned off, please correct me if I am wrong.



Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
Didn't the transponder being off also prevent TCAS from working.

The (American) pilots flying the Legacy have testified over and over that the transponder was not turned off; it's the Brazilian Air Force that suggested or theorized that the transponder had been turned off.

United787, a failure of the transponder would account for both of your comments. I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.). Airliners and business aircraft are remarkably complex machines and it's common to have "bugs" when they're new.



A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8530 times:

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 12):
I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.). Airliners and business aircraft are remarkably complex machines and it's common to have "bugs" when they're new

Guess work to try and support a personal political point.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8489 times:

Quoting Express1 (Reply 2):

Why do we wait until something like this happens and then correct the problem afterwards surely somebody should of known about the flew in the computer system by observing the systems behavior.

It's called engineering. Throughout history, there have been many engineering failures (the first pyramids come to mind), which then gives additional data to the engineers to correct those failures. That's why you always have those constant changes and improvements to an amazing array of products.

If you wait for a product to be almost fault free before its public introduction, you will never get the product to market. Witness Windows XP, how many corrections have been made since release? This is fairly typical.


User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1940 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8303 times:

Quoting Express1 (Reply 2):
Why do we wait until something like this happens and then correct the problem afterwards surely somebody should of known about the flew in the computer system by observing the systems behavior.

Because unfortunately, we in all our technological advances are not clarvoiant enough to see every potential problem.....

You could say the same thing about why it took an Air Canada DC9-30 cathcing fire in 1983 and people dying to make a rule requiring exit row lighting.....

or any of the other hosts of regualtions that are made AFTER an accident...

Try reading some old full NTSB reports for the mid to late 60s and you will not believe the items or procedures they didnt have then but we do have now as standard regulations or equipment.....You will say to your self, "goodnes, why didnt they do this or that.....?"

Anyway, thats about all I have to say...

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4071 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8276 times:

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 12):
I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.).

Do medium/large planes usually have redundancy in the transponders (i.e. more than one device)?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8216 times:

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 9):
By the way, where are those US pilots?

The Legacy pilots are staying at the J.W. Marriott hotel in Rio, and are still unable to leave the country as their passports were confiscated with no charges being filed against them to this date. I was also staying at that hotel on a business trip in October and it was a media circus upfront.

The US NTSB has issued a preliminary report on this accident (at the request of Brazilian investigators) and you can read the facts there in english.

Here is a summary. The flight plan did indeed call for altitude changes from FL370 to FL360 to FL380 while en route. The flight was CLEARED all the way to the destination at FL370 (which overides the flight plan altitudes). After passing Brazilia, the two planes were BOTH flying level at FL370 on the same airway, headed towards each other for almost ONE HOUR. For several minutes of that, the Legacy's transponder was reporting altitude to ATC as FL370. One controller asked the flight to ident and received the ident. The controller had only 3 airplanes on his sector.

The root cause of this accident is that ATC cleared both planes on the same altitude, same airway, same time, opostite directions.

They compounded their mistake by failing to correct the problem for close to ONE HOUR.

They missed multiple oportunities to do so, including a shift change briefing, where the controler briefed his replacement incorrectly that the Leagacy was at FL360.

All other factors, TCAS failures, temporary loss of secondary radar info (transponder) and temporary loss of comms are at best missed opportunities to correct the problem, but are NOT root causes.

Suggesting that the Legacy crew turned off it's transponder is ludicrous. It would be reccorded by the DFDR which that Brazilians have already analised.

Suggesting that it failed is not very probable, end if it did, why didn't ATC (NOT ONCE) got on the comms and asked them to reset transponder or switch to #2 transponder?

As for TCAS, I am very interested in why it failed to warn. My theory (weak one, I admit) is that with both airplanes converging at Mach 1.6, nearly head on and nearly at the same altitude (they were a few feet from perfect alignment), that the transponder antennas were blanketed by the fuselages and TCAS did not detect the oposing traffic.

What the Brazilians are doing, talking over and over about the LEgacy crew not following the Flight Plan altitudes and possibly turning off the transponder is a travesty.

Shame on them.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8138 times:
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There is another contributory factor in this accident besides the fact that two converging aircraft were both cleared to the same FL370. And that is the incredible damned accuracy of current Flight Management Systems that kept both aircraft tracking down the exact center of the airway, a bullet hitting a bullet so to speak. A few years ago, this would have likely been a scary near-miss (near-hit) as it would have been unlikely that each plane was tracking the airway centerline so accurately.

Air carrier pilots have discussed whether to deliberately offset the airway centerline by a quarter mile or so on their autopilots to avoid similar accidents.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8134 times:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
Suggesting that it failed is not very probable, end if it did, why didn't ATC (NOT ONCE) got on the comms and asked them to reset transponder or switch to #2 transponder?

The link posted by the thread starter points out an issue with the software that would have been difficult for the controllers to notice irregularities in the flight level.

The preliminary report was 100% correct in stating that they need and were going to focus on ATC equipment and technical factors.

Placing blame on the controller before all facts are known is as bad as placing it on the pilots. Neither is more professional than the other.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):

What the Brazilians are doing, talking over and over about the LEgacy crew not following the Flight Plan altitudes and possibly turning off the transponder is a travesty.

Presuming guilt is a travesty. The Pilots and ATC attempted contact but were unable to due to comms failure.

Why did ATC not notice anything for such a long time? Read the link posted by the thread starter. That might be why.


In any case, the pilots should be able to go home.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5366 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8075 times:

I'm guessing that an American company makes the disputed sofware. Watch and see. The Brazilian Air Force has so far been embarassingly self-protective about this tragedy, and they really need a diplomatic smack over this.

User currently offlineExpress1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8017 times:

well on reading all your replys,the same word comes up all the time,
we all learn by are mistakes.

dave


User currently offlineLVTMB From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7935 times:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
All other factors, TCAS failures, temporary loss of secondary radar info (transponder) and temporary loss of comms are at best missed opportunities to correct the problem, but are NOT root causes.

Agree. They are contributing factors ....

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
Placing blame on the controller before all facts are known is as bad as placing it on the pilots. Neither is more professional than the other.

Agree as well. But it is obvious that air traffic control failed. Not necessarily the failure of a controller, but certainly of ATC as a system. The simple statement is that ATC's goal or raison de etre is to ensure traffic separation. That goal was not accomplished.

MB


User currently offlineFlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7881 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 13):
Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 12):
I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.). Airliners and business aircraft are remarkably complex machines and it's common to have "bugs" when they're new

Guess work to try and support a personal political point.

I don't understand your comment; please elaborate.

I've delivered many (10+) brand new airplanes and flown countless other new (less than a month old) airplanes. My experiences have taught me that new airplanes have "bugs," some big, some minor. I recall one acceptance inspection that our mechanics found four days (repair time) of mechanical discrepancies (before the acceptance flight test).

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 16):
Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 12):
I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.).

Do medium/large planes usually have redundancy in the transponders (i.e. more than one device)?

Good question. Yes, multiple transponders are the norm, however, I've never flown any aircraft where the failure of one automatically switched/reverted to the other.



A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7801 times:

All the different bits of info on this tragedy all point the one thing present in all aircraft accidents. That is, they are caused by a series of events not just by one single factor. Of course some factors might be more prevalent than some but I think the final report will show there were a number of factors involved.

25 PPVRA : It might be of Brazilian design. I don't know the extent of it but these softawares/instrumentations tend to be developed (at least in part) by Brazi
26 Baron95 : Without getting too technical, that issue ONLY comes into play while secondary (transponder) radar returns are not received. In that case the control
27 TrijetsRMissed : It's called tombstone technology. In the aviation world, changes are not implemented until lives are lost. For example, two years before the Turkish
28 Maperrin : Leaving in Brazil, I agree with 99% of what is being said. However, I have to inform that US pilots are in Brazil not because of Government or Air For
29 Glideslope : Not at all. Completely appropriate, and accurate.
30 Glideslope : Yes sir. Won't make any difference though. Kicking Americans is in vogue these days.
31 Viasa : Is the N600XL still at Cachimbo (SBCC)?
32 Litz : They don't have to be new ... I was on a DL 757 earlier in the week and it arrived in ATL with a failed transponder (we had to wait to leave for TPA
33 PPVRA : Maybe there is a valid explanation as to why he didn't do anything? IFATCA seems to have a pretty good theory as to why that happened. And as they th
34 LVTMB : Roger that. Thanks for clarifying. Nevertheless, I don't understand why in some countries airplane accidents are investigated by criminal judges, as
35 FlyHoss : Yes, the 757 would be equipped with dual transponders. You've also made a good point about transponders, or nearly any component, can fail, new or no
36 Jrosa : Let me correct you a little bit, I am a lawyer in Brazil and I can assure you that the Brazilian judge is not doing any investigation. Investigations
37 Vref5 : Murder? Hmm. In the U.S., to prove a murder charge (as opposed to manslaughter) in a court of law, showing premeditated intent is generally required.
38 Post contains links Jrosa : Quoting Vref5 (Reply 37): Murder? Hmm. In the U.S., to prove a murder charge (as opposed to manslaughter) in a court of law, showing premeditated inte
39 LVTMB : A judge, cops, whatever. What I have a problem is with is airplane accidents being investigated by anyone other than an independent, subject matter e
40 PPVRA : There are two investigations. One is by the Federal Police and one is by the airforce's Accident Investigation and Prevention Team. The latter one is
41 Baron95 : You information is absolutely incorrect and incomplete. It was a Federal Police Investigator and Prosecutor (employees of the Federal Government of B
42 Baron95 : ATC Software is part of the ATC system, isn't it? I simply said that the root cause of the accident was ATC (as in ATC system) clearing both planes t
43 Baron95 : Wait a minute here. You are saying that ExcelAir has to prove in court that it did nothing wrong to get the jet back, rather than someone else prove
44 Baron95 : That is not correct. If ANY CRIMINAL ACTIVITY leading to an accident is suspected, then the FBI has jurisdiction and investigates together with the N
45 Post contains links Jrosa : Quoting Baron95 (Reply 41): Brazil and the US have a well established extradition treaty, specially for murder. Even if the pilots returned to the US,
46 PPVRA : Thats much more balanced. You certainly did not sound like it before. You sound like you were attacking the controller/ATC personel and accusing them
47 Baron95 : I do not know the intricacies of the US extradition treaty with Brazil, so I'll deffer to you that it excludes US nationals. However, I know that US
48 Baron95 : If I sounded like that it was not my intention. I must confess that I am terribly frustrated by how the brazilian officials have handled this inciden
49 Jrosa : First of all the BREAKING NEWS: The Federal Court of Appeals in Brasilia determined that the passports of the American pilots should be released to th
50 ULMFlyer : Honestly, there is no explanation why they didn't do anything for so long. If you check the timeline of events, you'll see that ATC didn't try to com
51 FlyHoss : This question may have already been covered in the previous threads, but did the ATC sector handling the Legacy call the sector handling the Gol 738 a
52 ULMFlyer : As far as we know, they didn't.
53 LVTMB : Precisely my point. There is no point in law enforcement being involved in an accidents like this one. MB
54 LTBEWR : This is good and they will be home for Christmas. Still, the Brazilian government had the need and right to detain the US Citizen flight crew to cond
55 Jrosa : I've read a brief transcript of the minutes of the judgement and the judges of the Federal Court of Appeals from Brasilia considered that the act to s
56 PPVRA : Then what does IFATCA mean in the article by CINDACTA being "non-error tolerant" and that there is no "reminder" for the controller and no "check and
57 Post contains images ULMFlyer : Well, if I understood correctly, what they mean is that when the primary radar return is lost, the software will revert to the original flight plan a
58 Antiuser : So now apparently the Federal Police wants to indict the Legacy pilots for "endangering air traffic safety". The more facts come out, the more it seem
59 Burnsie28 : If I remember correctly, this legacy had a transponder installed that had defects where the transponder would be turned "on" but the system would cut
60 ULMFlyer : Source? AFAIK, they will give their last statement to the Federal Police, get their passports back, and then fly back home. Negative, sir. According
61 Post contains links Antiuser : PF PODE INDICIAR PILOTOS DO LEGACY POR RISCO À SEGURANÇA AÉREA on Globo.com
62 ULMFlyer : Grazie, Antiuser. I had looked at the O Globo newspaper website among others, but there was nothing there. Man, what a banana republic! Not only are
63 Baron95 : I just flew in from MEX and I am catching up... looks like lots of developments, mostly positive. First off, thanks for many on this thread that put u
64 Jrosa : I personally believe that this is the crucial point in all this accident. The investigation should find out why the system that should have avoided t
65 Baron95 : It is true. Today when we fly IFR (particularly in the flight levels), we seem to be relinquishing our pilot responsibilities to always when in visua
66 Jrosa : Ops, I made a mistake! Instead of reading history please read industry. The correct sentence shall be: "This TCAS issue puts in risk the aviation IND
67 Antiuser : The Legacy pilots gave their deposition today. According to globo.com, they said absolutely nothing for 6 hours, got their passports back and are allo
68 Jrosa : A minor but very important correction, they were charged with endangering an aircraft or the air traffic without the will to do it, which reduces the
69 Antiuser : Ah, ok. In any case, I find it extremely hard to believe they will actually face any sort of punishment or even trial. Charging the pilots without pr
70 Post contains images Jrosa : Couldn't agree more.
71 Post contains links Baron95 : OK, I don't know what to think any more. According to this link (in portuguese) from Globo http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/SaoPaulo/0,,AA1380628-5605,00.
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