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Kingfisher Losing Millions, Blames LCCs  
User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8893 times:

I just came across this,

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=7235

I thought Kingfisher is an LCC
Another Airbus cancellation?

Cheers,
PP


One day there will be 100% polymer plane
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8851 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I also thought Kingfisher was a LCC actor on the Indian domestic market.

Anyway some kind of consolidation will have to come up soon or later on the booming Indian market.


FB.



Life is great at 41.000 feet...
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8854 times:

Well, at least Dr. Mallya is following Richard Branson's method for becoming a millionaire: start as a billionaire and set up an airline!

I wonder what impact this is likely to have on Kingfisher's long haul growth ambitions; it does have quite a large fleet on order.


User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8844 times:

Well their policy of ordering 5 of every Airbus WB won't help matters much, either  Wink

User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8838 times:

Cheap excuse. India's Richard Branson? meh.

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8825 times:

There is an article on Kingfisher in either Airliners or Airways (don't have them with me at the moment!). The founders plans are quite impressive - even if I found them to be on the way-too-ambitious side.

The market in India, both domestic and international, is quite competitive. One over-expanded carrier is bound to cry "foul" every now and then. The smart businessman will figure out what earns him money and concentrate on that. I hope that's the case here.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17428 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8781 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 5):
One over-expanded carrier is bound to cry "foul" every now and then

I just really hope the Indian government doesn't come running when that happens and try to "fix" or "help" the situation.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8781 times:

There is some logic in his arguments. As promotional fares, many LCCs offer fares as low as 25 cents + taxes & surcharge. And these LCCs aren't making money either, they too are bleeding profusely. Trying to offer prices which are less than cost price is hurting the entire airline industry in India. Almost all airlines are losing money in India this year.

User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8762 times:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/644381.cms

Wow, Mallya really is a whiner. If you read that article, all he does is complaining about fuel get taxed, competition, and law about flying abroad. Why don't just ask the government to give them money. It's easier.

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8719 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 8):
Wow, Mallya really is a whiner. If you read that article, all he does is complaining about fuel get taxed, competition, and law about flying abroad.

The fuel is taxed at different rates in different states and varies widely between 4% to 20%. This is an issue facing all airlines, and many airlines have been asking the govt to have uniform taxes. The law about flying abroad is an absurd law which specifies that an Indian airlines needs to be in operation for atleast five years before they can fly abroad. Meanwhile, new startups from other countries are allowed to fly to India, and they are busy establishing themselves while Indian airlines aren't allowed to.

Industries in all countries lobby their governments to get favorable terms to conduct their business and Mallya is no different. And he isn't the only person to have raised these issues, Gopinath of Deccan airlines, IA and AI have all raised the issues at different times.


User currently offlineBestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7117 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8512 times:

Ive flown Kingfisher over ten times this year, and the product excellent, aircraft spotless, and the crew amazing.... The Kingfisher economy product is far superior to any European short haul business class service. Even on short ATR routes a full hot meal is served, with a minimum three choices (veg, non veg, fruit platter - and on some routes Jain).

However the product quality, and the fare they are able to charge doesnt match up. There are too many airlines fighting for the same routes. Kingfisher, and Deccan will survive, but those in the middle (spice, go, paramount, indigo) unfortunatly wont in my opinion.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8351 times:

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 9):
The fuel is taxed at different rates in different states and varies widely between 4% to 20%. This is an issue facing all airlines, and many airlines have been asking the govt to have uniform taxes

And why is this a problem? every airline faces the same price right? Just like every airport here charges different landing fee, rent fee, and other things. Airlines adjust to different requirement and charges.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 9):
Industries in all countries lobby their governments to get favorable terms to conduct their business and Mallya is no different

Of course, every business lobby to get the best deal out of government, but they don't blame government for their losses.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 9):
The law about flying abroad is an absurd law which specifies that an Indian airlines needs to be in operation for atleast five years before they can fly abroad. Meanwhile, new startups from other countries are allowed to fly to India, and they are busy establishing themselves while Indian airlines aren't allowed to.

So? the domestic airline doesn't fly those routes anyway. It's different market and different competition. That's not the reason they are not profitable. I can agree with your argument about not being able to establish themselves, but that's not the reason why they're losing money.

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8335 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 11):
And why is this a problem? every airline faces the same price right?

Yup, and is there any wonder that almost all private airlines are losing money in India today?

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 11):
That's not the reason they are not profitable. I can agree with your argument about not being able to establish themselves, but that's not the reason why they're losing money.

The international routes out of India are pretty profitable right now, and Indian airlines can make money there which can subsidize their domestic operations.


User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8314 times:

Airline chiefs take ATF, tax issues to Chidambaram

Quote:
Airline chiefs from the aviation lobby group the Federation of Indian Airlines (FIA) met finance minister P Chidambaram on Monday with a list of fiscal complaints. The CEOs conveyed details about the state of their industry and asked for a relief from taxes that they claim are among the highest in the world.

The prominent among the demands was for aviation turbine fuel (ATF) to be notified as declared goods so that it attracts a uniform 4% duty all over the country.

ATF is currently taxed at an average of 27% by states. The low-cost airlines say their fares can come down substantially if tax rates are rationalised.
...

The group subsequently met at national carrier Indian’s office to discuss the future course of action. FIA members at the meeting, included Air Deccan CEO Capt Gopinath, Kingfisher chairman Vijay Mallya, Go Air MD Jeh Wadia, Air Sahara’s Alok Sharma, Air India chairman V Thulasidas, Jet Airways executive director Saroj Dutta, and Coimbatore-based Paramount Airways’ Thiagarajan.
...


User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8291 times:

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 12):
Yup, and is there any wonder that almost all private airlines are losing money in India today?

How will uniform taxation help the airlines making money?

Well, in Europe gas is taxed 200-300% yet the bus companies and taxi companies don't lose money.

In the US, gas is also taxed at a rate of about 50%, and business adjusted for that fact. I fail to see what is the relation between gas being taxed and airlines losing money. The fact is, when the gas price lowers, either by market mechanism or by tax reduction, they will still lose money.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 12):
The international routes out of India are pretty profitable right now, and Indian airlines can make money there which can subsidize their domestic operations.

Not for that much longer. If every airlines are allowed to fly international, the same thing will happen again. Cut throat competition will lead to loss making company again, or every airline will subsidize their domestic market the same way, leading to the same result.

Either way, that model will not work, unless you are subsidizing domestic operations for feeder traffic purposes.

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8114 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 14):
Well, in Europe gas is taxed 200-300% yet the bus companies and taxi companies don't lose money.

They would too if someone came along and started offering tickets for $0.50 and other operators were forced to match it to keep their customers. The same thing happened in US too few years back when all carriers were offering ridiculously low fares and no one was prepared to rise fares. Mallya is talking about similar situation in India today where some LCCs are offering fares as low as $0.50 + taxes.

They will take whatever relief that can be offered, in terms of tax or anything else  Smile

Each one of the points raised by Mallya has some merit when viewed in relation to others, and in the context of Indian aviation. That is what I have been trying to point out, that all these issues together are making all airlines in India lose money, not just kingfisher.

Airlines fly into Rs 2,100 cr loss; shake-up looms large

Quote:
Domestic airlines are flying into turbulence. Plagued by higher fuel prices, infrastructure constraints, declining yields and load factors, the domestic airlines — both full-service and low-cost — are together losing nearly Rs 6 crore a day. This means they could together tote up losses of Rs 2,100 crore, or $486 million, in the next one year.

...

Turbulent Times for Airlines in India

Quote:
...
While the passengers were benefited due to the drop in air fares, the industry as a whole was faced with mounting losses. In August 2006, Spicejet had reported a net loss of Rs. 414.2 million for the first year of operations. In September 2006, Deccan Aviation Limited, which operates Air Deccan, the largest LCC in India, reported a net loss of Rs. 3.4 billion for the 15 month period ended June 30, 2006. Jet Airways, a full service carrier, had also reported a net loss of Rs. 1.0 billion for the half year ended September 30, 2006, against a net profit of Rs. 1.6 billion for the same period of the previous year. Analysts opined that a combination of factors such as high ATF prices, rising labor costs, rapid fleet expansion, and intense price competition among the players was responsible for the losses in this sector.
...


User currently offlineAviator27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8017 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Thread starter):
I thought Kingfisher is an LCC

Originally when Kingfisher Airlines started, they were an LCC. A few months later, they positioned themselves to be a "middle of the road" airline. Then several months after that, they decided to become a full service airline with first class seats. Next, they plan to put sleeper seats on airplanes for flights longer than 2 hours. Then they are going to add showers and ....

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 9):
The fuel is taxed at different rates in different states and varies widely between 4% to 20%. This is an issue facing all airlines, and many airlines have been asking the govt to have uniform taxes. The law about flying abroad is an absurd law which specifies that an Indian airlines needs to be in operation for at least five years before they can fly abroad. Meanwhile, new start ups from other countries are allowed to fly to India, and they are busy establishing themselves while Indian airlines aren't allowed to.

All airlines in India deal with the same problem of different taxes across different states. KFA and VM just complains about it more than anyone else. I do agree with you on the current standards for new airlines to fly abroad. It is completely unfair when a start up from another country can fly to India on day one but Indian carriers have to wait 5 years.

I think KFA grew too large too quickly and now they are paying the price for that. Other carriers such as Spicejet and Go Air are quietly doing their thing.


User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7979 times:

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 16):
I think KFA grew too large too quickly and now they are paying the price for that. Other carriers such as Spicejet and Go Air are quietly doing their thing.

That doesn't hide the fact that Spicejet is running under loss and Go Air is yet to make their balance sheet public as it not yet a full year of operations. And their Rs 99 fares have had their share in the loss the company made. Even Jet Airways made a loss this year, and that was one of the most profitable airline company in India.

And if you look at the links that I have posted, the newly formed "Federation of Indian airlines" are lobbying with the government on the some of the issues that Mallya has raised. And Mallya being a well known businessperson in India and an MP, knows that his voice will be highlighted in the media.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7964 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Thread starter):
Another Airbus cancellation?

http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/orders_and_deliveries/




"The November order from TAM also included six widebody A330-200s. Other widebody orders in November were for three A330-200s from Afriqiyah Airways (a new Airbus customer) and five A340-500s from Kingfisher Airlines."

 Wink



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User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9623 posts, RR: 68
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7946 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Lets say the Indian government agress, and decides to introduce some sort of legislation to better control all these airlines, how long do you think it would take before anything meaningful came of it? 20 years? Longer?

User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7893 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 19):
Lets say the Indian government agress, and decides to introduce some sort of legislation to better control all these airlines, how long do you think it would take before anything meaningful came of it? 20 years? Longer?

The Indian govt will take atleast two years to decide before they do anything. But it is not just the Indian govt issue, even the airlines have to be accountable to their actions. You can't sell tickets at less than a dollar or less than cost and expect to be profitable.

1. In their mad rush to attract passengers, tickets are being sold at less than cost price by LCCs. And the LCCs in India don't enjoy any additional benefit as compared to full service airlines.

2. They save on the food served, and the salaries they pay to cabin crew and that is about it. Cost of food in India is pretty low, and the manpower cost is less as a percentage of overall costs compared to other countries.

3. As per all reports, the fuel cost is 30% of the airlines expenditure which is same for all carriers.

4. Due to paucity of trained cockpit crew, most of the airlines have expats in PIC positions, and they have to pay them the market rate.

5. In countries like USA, there are multiple airports serving a city, and LCCs use the ones which offer lower prices. In India, there is only airport for each major city, and the prices are the same for all operators.

The above points illustrate that the operating costs of LCCs are not significantly cheaper compared to their full service counterparts in India. So, selling tickets at abnormally low prices is sure way of going down.


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7874 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Thread starter):
Kingfisher Losing Millions, Blames LCCs

Do they really blame lower cost carriers? Seems like something a fan would say.  Wink

Would/could changing their strategy improve or worsen anything?

Note: I know nothing of this airline, I first heard of them last year. Those questions I ask could forseeably be asked of any airline that isn't LCC-ish.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9623 posts, RR: 68
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7837 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

So, selling tickets at abnormally low prices is sure way of going down.

Well, its called a free market. The idea being that whoever lasts the longest "wins." So whichever airline that can afford to loose the most money, or buy marketshare, will win the war. Once your competition is eliminated you raise your prices.


User currently offlineStealthpilot From India, joined May 2004, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7821 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 8):

Wow, Mallya really is a whiner. If you read that article, all he does is complaining about fuel get taxed, competition, and law about flying abroad. Why don't just ask the government to give them money. It's easier.

That’s a pretty harsh statement don't you think?
Adding to what Blrsea said, the reality is that (to my knowledge) every single airline in India is losing money. IC AI 9W IT DN S2 , Go, Indigo, SpiceJet and others are all in the red (latest quarter, if not the entire year). If Air Deccan/SpiceJet were making money then VM wouldn’t really have a point.
The fact is that airlines are severely undercutting one another and the industry lost almost $500 million- which is a massive amount for an industry that is relatively small. If airlines charge $10 cents a ticket and everyone keeps their prices low while consistently bleeding money, then yes I believe the FIA have a very valid point.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 17):

That doesn't hide the fact that Spicejet is running under loss and Go Air is yet to make their balance sheet public as it not yet a full year of operations. And their Rs 99 fares have had their share in the loss the company made. Even Jet Airways made a loss this year, and that was one of the most profitable airline company in India.

 thumbsup 
eP007



eP007
User currently offlineBlrBird From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7633 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 18):
and five A340-500s from Kingfisher Airlines."

So finally this order shows up on Airbus list, I wonder why it took so long!

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 9):
The law about flying abroad is an absurd law which specifies that an Indian airlines needs to be in operation for atleast five years before they can fly abroad. Meanwhile, new startups from other countries are allowed to fly to India, and they are busy establishing themselves while Indian airlines aren't allowed to.

What kind of morons are these to make a law like that! Look at the west Asia based LCC's they are having a cake walk on sub-continental runs!



from star dust....
25 Trent900 : For some reason when I read this I thought of a few airlines from the States which really shouldn't be around as we speak. Do people here think the i
26 Thorben : Branson seems to making money with his airline. Why not, most carriers seem to make more on international flight than on domestic ones. Yes, they fir
27 Post contains images Mk777 : Well i know you're being funny, but they haven't ordered the A346 yet? I think the airports at the metro cities need to be fixed soon before the airl
28 Cityjet : It seems Kingfisher is a poor loser. Both Kingfisher, AI IC and Jet charge extremely expensive fares for a 2-3 hour domestic flight in India - much mo
29 Blrsea : Look at my post #20 for reasons why the LCCs are not really that cheap. And the tax rates on ATF varies a lot, and airport charges in India some of t
30 Thorben : I wouldn't rule that one out. The A345s are for North America, the A380s will not come for a while, and the A330s might become to small for some rout
31 Mk777 : Well cool, maybe an A346 in IT colours would be quite nice...I am hoping to see IT at IAD, any a/c will do, though A345 would be nice (highly doubt i
32 Kiramakora : I agreed with most of your excellent post except one small detail. I do think that SpiceJet will survive; they have had consecutive months of being t
33 Tayaramecanici : Absolutely, the Indian aviation story is no different from the mature aviation markets in rest of the world. Except for Southwest every other major a
34 Schipholjfk : Assuming you are an Indian citizen? It is common for all Indian carriers to charge foreign passport holders 2X or more for the same ticket. For years
35 Nimish : Couldn't agree more! No more - I think the rules were changed last month to now make fares the same for Indian residents vs. foreigners. Excellent an
36 Post contains images Kevin777 : Well, as you mention the problem with Kingfisher is that they have an excellent product, but what does that do for you if people don't want to pay th
37 Thorben : I guess they'll fly to JFK, SFO, LAX, and ORD before they fly to IAD. However, the range from DEL or BOM can be done with an A346. Mallya is the 746t
38 Post contains images Kevin777 : Okay, let me clarify.. What I meant was, that in the airline industry Mallya has IMO shown all the skill of a poor airline manager operating as if in
39 Thorben : I'm not sure he is such a bad airline CEO. IT may have made some losses, but in the long run they'll profit from the potential that India has. Curren
40 Aerostar : that is true...now lets hope they can manage to stay afloat till the opportunities ripe. I have a feeling they wont be around when India truly opens
41 Thorben : Why not? They are backed by this billionaire businessman. Is this just a feeling or are there some facts behind it?
42 Tayaramecanici : [quote=Aerostar,reply=40]that is true...now lets hope they can manage to stay afloat till the opportunities ripe. I have a feeling they wont be around
43 Jacobin777 : Who's to say that by the time IT start flying those international routes, a lot of those won't already be "soaked up"(taken by other carriers)? Londo
44 HAWK21M : Amazingly only Cargo operators have registered a profit.With Rising Salaries & cheaper Tickets the profit margin is reducing. regds regds MEL
45 Aerostar : It's just a theory...any smart businessman will only stand to loose so much money before looking for a way to scale down/bail out. Where in my post d
46 Aviator27 : I believe this is VM third shot at running an airline. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think he owned EastWest Airlines and another airline whose name
47 Karan69 : No mate east west was most certainly not his----The owner was shot by the underworld causing the airline to fold up. He did start a sort of regional
48 Mk777 : I sort of agree with you on this one. The Indian Govt. needs to revamp the indian airports, be it a metro or the non-metro before it allows airlines
49 Tayaramecanici : He will definately make money and by the bucket loads, as soon as he's allowed to fly Intl. VM has undoubtedly created a brand couple of notches abov
50 Thorben : There will be enough room for everybody, I suppose. My guess is that he is smart enough to stay in during early losses and wait for later profits. Th
51 Abrelosojos : = Having flown a bunch of flights in India a few months back (see my TRs), I can assure you that the product standards of Indian airlines are notches
52 Tayaramecanici : Cheers, i am aware about the code but feel comfartable using KF. Sometimes 'it' confuses my numty brains while using 'IT'.
53 Post contains links Tayaramecanici : Found this article today, reiterates my statement in reply:49. Gopinath also happens to be from BLR where most of the Indian VC is parked. In fact one
54 Post contains images HAWK21M : That was the Wahid Brothers owned East West Airlines.VJM had started a UB group Airline that flopped. What post.On the Contarary.IT seems stronger th
55 Post contains images Jacobin777 : That's the problem there mate..making suppositions is bad for business...
56 Aviator27 : I was told VJM had started an airline during the Indian aviation boom of the 1980's. It didn't go anywhere obviously and its name has faded into hist
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