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Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?  
User currently offlineUnited777atGU From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 183 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7725 times:

From San Francisco Chronicle

"While the governor awaits the outcome of Hawaiian's petition before the U.S. Department of Transportation to continue serving the territory, Tulafono said he continues to talk with other airlines who may be interested in the American Samoa market.

Among the airlines is United Airlines, which the governor said is currently looking into whether it could make a stopover in Pago Pago en route to other destinations in the Pacific."

Well, I'm sorry about the problems that Hawaiian and the governor and American Samoa are having. I must say that.

Now to my point: Is United really looking at a Pago Pago stopover?? Well, obviously route planners and upper management would only know...but let's speculate? What would this do for UA? Would it work for them? What would they tweak in their routes/schedules? Would the route be a tag-on from HNL, OGG, LIH, or KOA? They wouldn't dare touch an international flight and try to include a stop, would they? I think it would be cool (probably uneconomical though) to work a PPG-HNL-PPG so they can get the connections to the mainland and to NGO or NRT if possible...???
(It'd add just one more destination to the list of places I plan to visit!!!)  bouncy 


Speechless
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5682 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7692 times:

Seems unlikley, but how about LAX/SFO-PPG-AKL with B772 or LAX/SFO-PPG-MEL B744 decoupled from the SYD flight.

Apart from SYD & MEL and the reintroduction of AKL, UA does not fly to any where else that PPG is on the way to.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8677 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7599 times:

It would make sense to introduce UA as they could improve relations and stop all that crud thats going on.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7434 times:

I would be shocked if UA ended up at Pago Pago......UA has trimmed its South Pacific network down to nothing more than nonstops from California to Australia, how would a route to PGO (from HNL?) fit into the network planning.

From what I have read, the govenor of American Samoa is quite a character.....and while he may have spoken with UA, who knows if UA was listening? If HA were to drop service to PGO, Aloha would seem to be the replacement carrier.....but didnt Aloha once try service to PGO and could not make money on the route? And isnt a destination like PGO better served with a widebody aircraft that can haul lots of cargo?

There were also rumors that American Samoan interests would form a new airline in order to provide service to the islands, I dont know what happened to that idea. In any case, the Samoan soap opera continues......I just hope that the overzealous approach taken by the govenor does not result in the islands losing a vital air link.


User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7427 times:

UA already has the authority to tech stop in PPG.


Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1354 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7391 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 2):
It would make sense to introduce UA as they could improve relations and stop all that crud thats going on.

What "crud" are you referring too?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
I would be shocked if UA ended up at Pago Pago......

So would I.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
If HA were to drop service to PGO, Aloha would seem to be the replacement carrier.....

HA has no intentions of dropping service to PPG or being forced out by a politician with ulterior motives. Aloha tried service to PPG from HNL a few years ago but quickly withdrew as it was not profitable for them.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
And isnt a destination like PGO better served with a widebody aircraft that can haul lots of cargo?

Absolutely.
Just to add a little bit to this story. A few weeks ago, Governor Tulafono went to Washington to meet with government officials and made a stop in Chicago to plead his case to UA management about starting service to the territory. There has been no word by the Media here in HNL or in PPG whether his attempts were successful.

Aloha,
HALFA



Don't mess with Texas....We just may do that!
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3661 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7319 times:
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Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
but didnt Aloha once try service to PGO and could not make money on the route?

Yes, AQ couldn't make money flying to PPG. This was even with the fact that their PPG operation was partially subsidized by the Am. Samoa government. Subsidies that were not and are not offered to HA. AQ's fares were not much lower than HA's and AQ pulled out after less than a year.

Here's the article were it mentions the support given by the Am. Samoa government to AQ. Look under the section titled, "Aloha: A Failed Experiment."

http://archives.pireport.org/archive/2006/august/08-08-ed2.htm


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8677 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7282 times:

Quoting HALFA (Reply 5):
What "crud" are you referring too?

The crud between Tulano and HA. No disrespect intended HALFA.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7211 times:

Perhaps CM (Contintental-Micronesia) could cover this, as they already cover other USA territorial Pacific islands.

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9661 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7164 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
LAX/SFO-PPG-AKL with B772

That could get them back to AKL. The route could even be offered with a 763ER.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7154 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
LAX/SFO-PPG-AKL with B772 or LAX/SFO-PPG-MEL B744

Either of those routings would lose money faster than UA could count it. PGG is a destination that neither Aussies or Mainland US visitors are clamoring to go to. The local population is not large enough to support that kind of service.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6936 times:

Pan American used to run a milk run thru the pacific islands with a 707, which includes a stop at PPG, (in-fact they crashed one at PPG late sixties), so why not with a UA 763 or 757, I'm sure more than one island is underserved.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6899 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 11):
Pan American used to run a milk run thru the pacific islands with a 707, which includes a stop at PPG, (in-fact they crashed one at PPG late sixties), so why not with a UA 763 or 757, I'm sure more than one island is underserved.

That was 40 years ago, when passengers had no choice other than multi-stop transpacific flights. Passengers (especially premium pax sitting up front and those paying higher fares) now require and expect nonstop service from LAX/SFO to SYD/MEL/AKL and have no interest in a 20+ hour multi-stop odyssey when nonstop flights are offered. Even Air New Zealand, the pioneer in flying the coral route, and the airline that has maintained its island hopping network in the SOuth Pacific, is rethinking its route system to keep costs under control. Thus, an island hopper flight would no longer attract any thru traffic (aside from some a.net members) and revenue would have to be earned in full on the individual segments......thats a tough business case.

Operations in the SOuth Pacific is a difficult and expensive proposition....and fares do tend to be high due to long distances and limited demand/frequency; that is why I still do not understand why the govenor of American Samoa is so critical of Hawaiian. Fares on the HNL-PPG can not and should not be compared to the fares charged on LAX-HNL (for example)......the conditions, demand, yeilds and expenses are totally different.


User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3661 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6757 times:
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Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
Perhaps CM (Contintental-Micronesia) could cover this, as they already cover other USA territorial Pacific islands.

They would be a logical choice, but their fares would be just as high or higher than HA's. Plus, they have no presence in the South Pacific outside of Cairns and probably not even looking at the area. That's probably why they were not mentioned by the Governor.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 10):
PGG is a destination that neither Aussies or Mainland US visitors are clamoring to go to.

Yep, Am. Samoa has a non-existant tourist industry.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
that is why I still do not understand why the govenor of American Samoa is so critical of Hawaiian.

Exactly. He should have learned from his AQ experiment. He favored AQ and helped them with taxpayer money, but AQ's fares were only slightly lower than HA's.


User currently offlineFreedom747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6425 times:

From an airline standpoint, what business would any airline have flying there? Fill me in...

User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4079 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 6085 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 10):
PGG is a destination that neither Aussies or Mainland US visitors are clamoring to go to. The local population is not large enough to support that kind of service.

Even with the rest of Samoa factored in, the only service that is really needed is 2-3x per week to HNL is all I can see as being economically feasible. From HNL people can find their way to LAX, SAN, SFO, SLC (A sizable chunk of Samoa is Mormon believe it or not) or SEA where the vast majority of the Samoan community resides on the mainland.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5525 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 6040 times:

I can't see UA stopping enroute to OZ or NZ in PGG. With the US-OZ market being rather competitive and highly coveted, I can't see the only US airline offering non-stops from the mainland US, stopping. It would hurt business. Hell, who wants to stop in HNL (sunny, paradise destination aside) on the way Down Under, when you can go non-stop?

HA will just have to go it alone on the PGG-HNL market and the governor of Samoa will have to deal with it.

Isn't there more of a HNL-PGG market than a US Mainland-PGG market?



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4079 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6006 times:

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 16):
Isn't there more of a HNL-PGG market than a US Mainland-PGG market?

Samoa is a significantly poor island chain as is nearby Tonga. You have to get further west into Fiji, or east towards French Polynesia before there is more of a tourist market, and more disposable income amongst the population.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7547 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 2):
It would make sense to introduce UA as they could improve relations and stop all that crud thats going on.

The problem was that he said that HA was charging too much, i found airfare from PHX-PPG rt for $400 thats no different then most US domestic markets.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2705 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5962 times:

Quoting United777atGU (Thread starter):
From San Francisco Chronicle

Has anyone clicked on the article?

The main topic of the article is not about UA but the Governor of American Samoa complaining that HA favors the Oakland Raiders over customers in the territory claiming that HA has rescheduled service to PPG to handle the Raiders charters.

Here is an excerpt of the article:
(12-01) 12:38 PST PAGO PAGO, American Samoa (AP) --
Hawaiian Airlines denies American Samoa Gov. Togiola Tulafono's latest complaint: that the carrier favors the Oakland Raiders over its customers in the U.S. territory.

Tulafono, who is trying to get a new carrier to serve the territory, blames Hawaiian's charter services agreement with the NFL team for the rescheduling of several flights between Pago Pago and Honolulu in recent weeks.

Airline spokesman Keoni Wagner insists that's not the cause for Hawaiian having to reschedule five flights in November.

He said aircraft for the regularly scheduled flights were not available because of "an unanticipated delay in modifying the interior of a 767 that's being added to our fleet."

Wagner, in an e-mail responding to questions, said, "This has affected flights on all of our routes, not just Pago Pago."


User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5945 times:

Hopefully this will sign the return of UA to New Zealand after about a 4 year absence.

What I didn't understand was why UA pulled LAX-AKL-MEL and instead, started LAX-SYD-MEL. SYD has enough O & D traffic to sustain a seperate flight. There would be lots of local traffic MEL-AKL and lots of MEL PAX continuing to LAX. Plus, AKL would prvide better connections to CNS, ADL and PER than the current situation at the moment.

While a routing to AKL via PagoPago would not be ideal, it would work in my mind. However, if this route does go ahead I can sense a more agrovated relationship between UA and NZ emerge as the new PagoPago flight would obviously completely sabotage NZ's own LAX-APW flight. To be honest I think NZ would rather fly LAX-PGO-AKL than LAX-APW-AKL, it's just that NZ does not have local traffic rights American Samoa - USA. I mean what American wants to go to Western Samoa when it is easier to get to American Samoa?

UA please, please come back to New Zealand. I beg of you.


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3204 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5945 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7):
Quoting HALFA (Reply 5):
What "crud" are you referring too?

The crud between Tulano and HA. No disrespect intended HALFA.

MCOflyer

I can't speak for Am Samoa, but what "crud" has HA dished out? I don't understand



FLYi
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5743 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 11):
Pan American used to run a milk run thru the pacific islands with a 707, which includes a stop at PPG, (in-fact they crashed one at PPG late sixties), so why not with a UA 763 or 757, I'm sure more than one island is underserved.

Milk runs have all but fallen out of favor, since making money on them is a pretty big uphill battle. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone really interested in flying from SFO-AKL via HNL and PPG.

Continental Micronesia makes the most sense, to me, to pick that route up. UA has been trimming a lot of routes and centering its focus on areas where it seems to have advantages in the market and can therefor make the most money.... flying to PPG just doesn't fit.

As for UA flying SFO-AKL on a 772ER or even maybe a 763ER (if it has the legs... it looks too close to call for me), I'd love that, even though their star alliance partner Air New Zealand services it currently (and Air New Zealand is a wonderful airline, btw), it'd be nice to see the two share the route.... I could fly in to AKL on UA and back on NZ.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5339 times:

It's not true, but there is a potential market!

We know that there is a market of economy class passengers flying American Samoa to Hawaii, and there is an even bigger market of economy class passengers flying Auckland to Apia. Both markets are price sensitive in the extreme, and neither can find high-yield business class markets.

In addition, Air New Zealand is very reluctant to continue its AKL-HNL 767 service and is considering routing it via APW or RAR.

What about the option of United using a low-cost base Ted operation to fly A320 aircraft or similar:

Auckland - Apia - Pago Pago- Honolulu.

The AKL-APW flight would certainly be full, and a handful of people would fly through to HNL

And the PPG-HNL flight would obviously be full too

It could be done, and requires no new traffic rights except for AKL-APW and APW-PPG, which would be a formality, especially if Air New Zealand agreed an Airshare agreement and bought a block of seats. And if they bought seats all the way through to HNL they would get out of their HNL dilemna.

But it is imaginative, and airlines don't like anything that looks novel or risky.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5280 times:

I think the American Samoan governor should be looking into ways to remove the double standard applied to PPG airport.

It is technically a domestic airport as it is a territory of the United States, so no airline can have any traffic rights PPG - USA. However, all HNL-PPG are considered international, so higher international airfare rules must apply. Choose one or the other, but not both. That's what makes PPG such a rough location.

I think it would be terrific is UA could fly to PPG coupled with an increase in Samoan tourist facilities. I understand it to be a fascinating place - maybe with an increase in tourist facilities could accompany a UA expansion. I'd love to visit!!



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
25 United777atGU : That's an awesome idea! I like it alot! It would give UA a reason to say that Ted is working and is expanding--the only problem is that it would be s
26 NZ107 : Doesn't Virgin Blue have some sort of codeshare with UA? They could do a codeshare with Polynesian Blue for flights to and from APW.. Unless NZ will f
27 SSTsomeday : Yes, so: 1) Low density route 2) Low Yield route (not a lot of 1st or business traffic) 3) need a widebody A/C to help the profit margin with freight
28 777fan : Don't even get me started on the DJ-UA relationship. Mrs. 777fan just arrived back on our home rock (Oahu) after a two week jaunt in Australia and Ne
29 NZ107 : Whoops, sorry.. Just haven't heard much of it apart from the fact you can get UA miles on DJ (true..?) and well maybe saying a codeshare with NZ usin
30 Koruman : Every comment about why PPG is an unattractive route for an airline are true, but then Hawaiian is sticking in there like a limpet because as long as
31 777fan : No, it's true but only on flights within Australia that continue onward from UA's flights to SYD and MEL. It's pretty confusing and, after the experi
32 Bobnwa : Even though it is only a 12 minute flight, it would cost UA thousands to fly APW-PGG.
33 Post contains images ChrisNH : would little natives run out to the plane and try to sell beads to the passengers? Chris in NH
34 SSTsomeday : It is true that they have a monopoly, and will charge what the market will bear. I wonder if some charter operation would be able to offer once or tw
35 MotorHussy : What an incredibly ignorant and ill-informed thing to say. Been to Samoa a few times have you? No, didn't sound like it. MH
36 BAW716 : Hmm...the governor again. OK, let's leave him aside for a moment and look at the merits. HNL-PPG-HNL service on its own makes no sense for UA. Now, if
37 SSTsomeday : Perhaps there would be more demand if another carrier can make the route viable by offering competition. Maybe this is possible as a one-stop route t
38 Koruman : But an A320 is fine for freight! I don't see Samoa (Western or American) being viable for any flights apart from to Hawaii (from Pago) or New Zealand
39 Ha763 : The PPG market is big enough for the 767 2-3 times a week, which is exactly what the schedule is. The cabin may not always be full of pax, but there
40 B6FA4ever : the A320 may not be useful for freight if PPG-HNL is anything like JFK to the carribean. we (jetblue) discontinued service from JFK-SDQ due to not ma
41 Post contains images MotorHussy : No, they learned from their previous mistakes when a newborn was sucked into the intake of a P&W JT9D. The extended family spent the following 20 som
42 Koruman : I'm not anti-Hawaiian: I'm a member of the frequent flyer program. I'd just say that Hawaiian is onto a winner being a monopoly carrier protected from
43 Planemanofnz : Are you sure this is a good idea? I'd hate to think what that would do to an aircraft if such a routine was continued over a long period of time. I m
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