AbleToFly From Denmark, joined Nov 2006, 112 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2851 times:
As I've lived in Greenland for most of my life and still go there on vacations, and as I've worked for Air Greenland as mechanic apprentice, I keep wondering which aircraft that could be the best possible replacement keeping in mind that the airfields in Greenland aren't much longer that 2800 feet (850 meters). Except of a few like Sondrestrom Fjord (Kangerlussuaq). I know there have been talks about the Dash 8 as the natural replacement, if you will. Also the ATR 42 have been in Greenland to show it's abilities to Air Greenland. The Dash 7 have flown for Air Greenland for more than 25 years since it entered service in 1979 and can carry 50 pax. The aircraft is expensive to operate yes, but it's the most versatile and has proven very reliable in the conditions it's flying in. I was told that if Air Greenland started operating the Dash 8, 40% of the mechanics would be obsolete. It just doesn't really match the Dash 7's performance on short fields. Does anyone have a replacement?
Me first thought as a child was the BAe 146, just because it has 4 engines like the Dash 7.
But that one ofcourse is no option. Considering that Greenland is almost entirely a rocky place with almost no flat spots on the terrain to find, I can't see any real replacement, other than constructing an aircraft just for that purpose. Hoping for a good discussion.
NASBWI From Bahamas, joined Feb 2005, 1254 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2821 times:
Yep, the natural replacement would be the -8. However, it would have to be the -100/200 series (second-hand these days) since the -300s have a longer accelerate-stop requirement than 2800 feet.
Vref5 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2807 times:
Difficult because many small prop plane manufacturers has either gone out of business or stopped making certain products.
I would suggest ATR-42 or ATR-72 depending on desired pax loads. Even the 60-seat ATR-42 has a range that is about twice of the Dash 7. But lower max takeoff weight by several thousand kg. That could be a negative depending on pax or cargo load factor and utilization.
ATR-42 requires about 1 to 1.2 km of runway for takeoff at MTOW assuming balanced field and standard or slightly above standard temperature. Landing requires about 1 km at MLW.
(Dash 7 had better STOL performance... about 700m max for takeoff and 600m for landing.)
ATR-42 max cruise speed is around 260 knots and max altitude is 25,000 ft. Dash 7 is about 250 knots but max alt is about 20,400 ft with pax onboard.
I don't remember the fuel burn rate of either aircraft.
There was also the Fokker F27 and Dornier 328 or 328JET but both companies have gone out of business a while ago. SAAB also stopped making the SAAB 2000 and even the 340. Raytheon stopped making the Beechcraft 1900D (19 seater turboprop) a few years ago.
You're right, it's not easy finding a good STOL replacement for the DHC-7 with similar characteristics unless you buy used aircraft or am willing to consider the ATR for new aircraft purchases.
HAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 10 Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2807 times:
The DHC-7s STOL characteritics are definetly unmatached in the 50 pax category. IMHO there is not enough of a market for either Bomdardier, Embraer (or a Russian manufacturer) to be able to manufacture a sucessor profitably.
Vref5 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2793 times:
The DHC-8 would also be an option, too. I didn't mention it because AbleToFly didn't seem to like that idea based on the rumor of mechanic reductions. And its worse STOL performance, too.
Still, the DHC-8 isn't bad, especially the Series 400... but of course, there's the 100/200/300.
Connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2793 times:
Viking Aviation of Victoria BC now owns the production rights to all of the DHC line up to and including the Dash 7. I believe their first attempt to restart a production lnie will be the DHC-6 (maybe DHC-6NG ?), but it's not out of the question that a newer-technology Dash-7 would appear.
There used to be an old saw when DC-3 replacements were being considered, that the best replacement for a DC-3 was a DC-3. Might be the same situation here. Perhaps newer PW engines, glass cockpit, lighter airframe.
MCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8553 posts, RR: 14 Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2743 times:
I think a new dash 7 replacement is a rebuilt dash 7.
MauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2477 posts, RR: 28 Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2716 times:
I don't see the need for restarting Dash-7 production...
the F-50 can also land on rough terrains, and while it may not match the Dash-7 capecity's , the ''air strips'' only need a litle bit of construction, as the F-50 doesn't require mutch...
AbleToFly From Denmark, joined Nov 2006, 112 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2713 times:
Yes, I really like your replies.
My own favourite for this role would be the Dash 8-200 maybe. Mainly because of the improved performance compared to the -100 series. The fact that Air Greenland could be forced to reduce the number of mechanic employees is scary, but may be a reality due to changing times. The ATR 42 has proven to be inefficient because it can't operate with maximum load and it could only operate from GOH, SFJ, UAK, KUL and JAV. That is a big issue for the company that does a lot of cargo operations with the Dash 7.
The Dash 8 was flying in Greenland this summer for Arctic Travel Group that leased a Dash 8-100 from Iceland. To me it was great, at first the fact the we saw it in Greenland thus we could see how it did. I haven't got any response from friends up north yet, but I know that it only could operate from GOH, SFJ, UAK, JAV. Most of the airfields i Greenland, also very new, are 850 meters, while GOH i 950 meters and may be lengthened in some years.
I really can't find anything else that can take-off using only 3-400 meters and land on 2-300 meters..
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Dash 7 can keep it self airborne with 2 engines and in some cases 1 engine with very little load, I would be surprised if any Dash 8 could keep it self airborne with 2 engines unserviceable.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3592 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2669 times:
I guess the same can be asked for the DHC6 Twin Otter. While there have been a few ventures that were designed to result in a Twotter replacement, none has really made it into a long-term programme.
Given how many old DC3s are still around, the Dash 7 probably has some 25 years of service life left...
AirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 1907 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2659 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 10): I guess the same can be asked for the DHC6 Twin Otter. While there have been a few ventures that were designed to result in a Twotter replacement, none has really made it into a long-term programme.
A radical step, but the only real replacement may come from Russia or China, the Chinese Y12 is a similarly sized plane, designed for short, rough runways.
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
AbleToFly From Denmark, joined Nov 2006, 112 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2650 times:
Quote: the Dash 7 probably has some 25 years of service life left...
I totally agree with you.
I wouldn't be surprised if it would remain in service with Air Greenland for another 25 years. The company's S-61's have been in service for 40 years now just to mention..
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3592 posts, RR: 5 Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2483 times:
Quoting AbleToFly (Reply 12): wouldn't be surprised if it would remain in service with Air Greenland for another 25 years. The company's S-61's have been in service for 40 years now just to mention..
Particularly as I am under the impression that most of them have comparatively low hours.
FlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2414 times:
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 5): Viking Aviation of Victoria BC now owns the production rights to all of the DHC line up to and including the Dash 7. I believe their first attempt to restart a production lnie will be the DHC-6 (maybe DHC-6NG ?), but it's not out of the question that a newer-technology Dash-7 would appear.
There used to be an old saw when DC-3 replacements were being considered, that the best replacement for a DC-3 was a DC-3. Might be the same situation here. Perhaps newer PW engines, glass cockpit, lighter airframe.
I've had that same thought, too. Better engines with a larger power turbine (i.e. multiple power turbines), EFIS, lighter seats and a modern hydraulic system. IIRC, the hydraulic pumps had become less than reliable and it was difficult to get parts for them, also.
Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 6): I think a new dash 7 replacement is a rebuilt dash 7
I agree, ultimately, no airplane can fully replace a DHC-7 except another DHC-7. It's a airplane with unique talents. It's unlikely, IMHO, that enough demand, and therefore funding, will materialize to support a modernized DHC-7 (as I suggested above). So rebuilding seems to be the only option. On the good news side, it's good for job security for the mechanics.
I'd suggest that current operators purchase unused DHC-7s to secure parts and airframes for possible future use.
PavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 655 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2384 times:
Since somebody mentioned Russia. The Sukhoi SU-80 has very good short field characteristics. While it has a smaller capacity than the Dash 7 it would probably be suitable for a lot of the routes it currently serves. It also features GE powerplants. Considering the Chinese recently bought a lot of them they must have some positive attributes as strange as they look.
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And its worse STOL performance, too.
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