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USAirways Sweetens Deal With Pilots  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3105 posts, RR: 10
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4383 times:

Courtesy: Associated Press

USAirways Sweetens Deal With Pilots

"the company would pay to bring everyone up to the more lucrative America West contract."

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061204/us_airways_pilots.html?.v=1

[Edited 2006-12-04 23:15:21]

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2103 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4205 times:

And it's still not enough. Evidently some people won't be happy until they bankrupt the airline yet again.

User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4064 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4175 times:

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 1):
And it's still not enough. Evidently some people won't be happy until they bankrupt the airline yet again.

That WILL happen IF Doug Parker is successful in his hostile bid for DL.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4147 times:

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 1):
And it's still not enough. Evidently some people won't be happy until they bankrupt the airline yet again.

It's not just about the pay.

Did you know, for example, that the company has offered proposals for things like vacation and sick that are in fact *worse* than either the existing HP contract or US contract?

Yeah, I thought not.  Yeah sure



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

The wording amuses me...they will bring everyone "up to the more lucrative America West contract rate". America West pilots are still among the lowest paid in the industry. That's some "lucrative".


Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineRiddlePilot215 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4032 times:
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Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
Courtesy: Associated Press

USAirways Sweetens Deal With Pilots

"the company would pay to bring everyone up to the more lucrative America West contract."

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061204/us_ai...?.v=1

Extremely crappy pay and benefits, upgraded to crappy pay and benefits is still crappy pay and benefits.

Parker is just a tight ass, who refuses to do anything, because any dips in cashflow and performance, means that he doesn't get such a large bonus check, and stock benefits when it's time to file the 10K.



God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 970 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3822 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
"the company would pay to bring everyone up to the more lucrative America West contract."

Is this the "synergy" Delta pilots can expect if the hostile take-over is successful?

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 5):
means that he doesn't get such a large bonus check, and stock benefits when it's time to file the 10K.

Or is this the "synergy" Parker keeps talking about?


User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3805 times:
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Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
The wording amuses me...they will bring everyone "up to the more lucrative America West contract rate". America West pilots are still among the lowest paid in the industry. That's some "lucrative".

This amuses me, because there is always going to be one airline that has the lowest pay, the highest pay, and then everyone in between. So who is it you would think would be fair "to be among the lowest?"

Don't people realize that US is not more profitable than it has been in a VERY long time. If you want raises and want benefits to go back at levels they were in the past, then basically you want the company to go back to where it used to be? Amazing.


User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3280 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 5):
Parker is just a tight ass, who refuses to do anything, because any dips in cashflow and performance, means that he doesn't get such a large bonus check, and stock benefits when it's time to file the 10K.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people here are such experts on Doug Parker.  rotfl 



.......
User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3700 times:

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 8):
It never ceases to amaze me how some people here are such experts on Doug Parker.

Well, naturally when you lead a bankrupt airline back to the black, you must be greedy...right?  sarcastic 

You know, I really don't think Parker has done anything spectacular, but I have to constantly defend him because people always seem to place unfair blame on him for ridiculous claims. For once, I want to get a chance to blast somebody for praising Parker.  Wink

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3675 times:

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 7):
If you want raises and want benefits to go back at levels they were in the past,

Who said anything about that?  Yeah sure

No one is suggesting that. But then again, you already knew that, and just felt like making a strawman argument.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 9):
You know, I really don't think Parker has done anything spectacular, but I have to constantly defend him because people always seem to place unfair blame on him for ridiculous claims.

I don't know how much access the MEC lets furloughed pilots have on the AAA ALPA site, but if you can get on there and see the JNC reports, you won't like what you see about management's contract proposals.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineRiddlePilot215 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3634 times:
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Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 8):
It never ceases to amaze me how some people here are such experts on Doug Parker.

It's not even an expert opinion. It's just simple economics.

Plain and simple, the airline industry is all about dollar and [lack of] sense. Those that are ruthless, cavalier, and pin-headed enough to demand credit for something as un-spectacular as coordinating a merger between two REALLY bad airlines (which btw, still has horrible labor issues...especially concerning seniority, pay rate, benefits and retirement plans, and employee morale) are the ones that excel at their jobs.

Parker could care less about his employees, and how much their lives probably suck right now. If he did, he wouldn't have tried this little "small airline that's kinda financially sound...takes over the big mamma jamma in Ch.11" scheme, in which a true merger would have just raised all sorts of hell, and would have ultimately ended up with both airlines in a potential Ch. 7 situation. The logistics for that merger idea are so ridiculous I'm working on a new word to describe it all, because there's nothing in the dictionary that can grasp the idiocy of it all.

That's my bit on good 'ole Dougie P



God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 10):
I don't know how much access the MEC lets furloughed pilots have on the AAA ALPA site, but if you can get on there and see the JNC reports, you won't like what you see about management's contract proposals.

I haven't seen them yet, so I can only imagine how pathetic they are.

On a side note, how are your Flyers doing this year?  stirthepot 

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineThegooddoctor From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3568 times:

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 8):
It never ceases to amaze me how some people here are such experts on Doug Parker. rotfl

Oh, you haven't heard the A.net scuttlebut? All the experts from ATL and SLC have personally attested to the fact that he is in fact the spawn of satan!

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 9):
You know, I really don't think Parker has done anything spectacular, but I have to constantly defend him because people always seem to place unfair blame on him for ridiculous claims. For once, I want to get a chance to blast somebody for praising Parker.

Come now, are you aren't actually saying it's a good thing that he brought 2 airlines from the brink of death? People of Airliners.net: SonOfACaptain needs to be immediately flamed for his insistance on logic and fairness!

I also would not give Doug Parker a pair of angel's wings - but he has two "failing" airlines breathing again, that might be worth note?



The GoodDoctor
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6474 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
The wording amuses me...they will bring everyone "up to the more lucrative America West contract rate". America West pilots are still among the lowest paid in the industry. That's some "lucrative

But they are still the highest paid employees at America West by far, including the managers.


User currently offlineNoBoeingNoGoin From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 3421 times:

From the crew news on our Employee Website...
The America West Pilots are making about 4 dollars more an hour for Airbus 320 family flying.
Did you know that America West Mainline Gate agents started a about 7 an hour and topped off at around 12?
They are coming to the US mainline scale.. but they will be at the same level in about 2 years
Alex


User currently offlineStarCityFlyr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 5):
Extremely crappy pay and benefits, upgraded to crappy pay and benefits is still crappy pay and benefits.

Parker is just a tight ass, who refuses to do anything, because any dips in cashflow and performance, means that he doesn't get such a large bonus check, and stock benefits when it's time to file the 10K.

I don't think I can recall ever seeing anyone in the airline industry holding any employee hostage for their work. Seems to me that if you don't like the pay you receive doing a job, then you have two simple choices: 1. Decide you like the pay you are receiving and continue working or 2. Find another career that pays at a level that you "think" you're qualified to earn.

I did the latter several months ago and couldn't be happier with the results. At the end of the day, your personal happiness and well being is no ones responsibility but your own.

Sorry to sound so blunt but thats reality.

Safe and happy flying all!


User currently offlineEmSeeEye From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3328 times:

Quoting StarCityFlyr (Reply 16):
I don't think I can recall ever seeing anyone in the airline industry holding any employee hostage for their work. Seems to me that if you don't like the pay you receive doing a job, then you have two simple choices: 1. Decide you like the pay you are receiving and continue working or 2. Find another career that pays at a level that you "think" you're qualified to earn.

I did the latter several months ago and couldn't be happier with the results. At the end of the day, your personal happiness and well being is no ones responsibility but your own.

Sorry to sound so blunt but thats reality.

As I sit here day after day reading a.net post sometimes I have to ask myself why I gave up aviation in favor of another career. Then I come across something that is so absurd (like the whining in this post about how awful peoples lives are) and I'm glad I'm out. If you dont like it... then do something about it!

StarCityFlyr welcome to my RR list.


User currently offlineRiddlePilot215 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3273 times:
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Quoting StarCityFlyr (Reply 16):
I don't think I can recall ever seeing anyone in the airline industry holding any employee hostage for their work. Seems to me that if you don't like the pay you receive doing a job, then you have two simple choices: 1. Decide you like the pay you are receiving and continue working or 2. Find another career that pays at a level that you "think" you're qualified to earn.

The point I was trying to make is simply the fact that America West employees don't make much more than their US counterparts. If US salaries were raised America West's standards, the pay increase would be just enough to cover the amount of taxes that would be taken out of their paychecks to pay them exactly what they're making now.



God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5053 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 5):
Extremely crappy pay and benefits, upgraded to crappy pay and benefits is still crappy pay and benefits.

Parker is just a tight ass, who refuses to do anything, because any dips in cashflow and performance, means that he doesn't get such a large bonus check, and stock benefits when it's time to file the 10K.

There are so many pilots out there that are looking for work. If the pilots are unhappy at US, then they can go apply with another airline. I am all for pilots getting good pay and all, but I am also understanding of the need to keep the costs low during a merger. I don't know.... Nobody is ever happy with the amount they make. If US slapped $100,00.00 in cash in each pilots hand as a bonus, they would find a way to call the airline cheap.

Cheap would be locking out the pilots, and hiring a subcontract.

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 8):
It never ceases to amaze me how some people here are such experts on Doug Parker. rotfl

LMAO!!! You hit it directly on the nose! Parker is one of the better CEO's out there. He is very ambitious, and seems to have a plan. I have seen him get slammed for even thinking about DL, and got slammed for taking US. Will he get slammed if he is successful?



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineSocalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3261 times:

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 9):
For once, I want to get a chance to blast somebody for praising Parker

Blast Me then. Parker "led" America West out of the toilet to profitability, then has managed to do so with USAirways. Had both companies remained on the former paths they were on, USAirways would definitely have been liquidated and eventually America West could have been as well, although not as likely. What is likely is America West would have been the "target" of a takeover rather than the controlling entity in a takeover. The problems with half you greedy bastards is you expect overnight results, it's not enough that tens of thousands of people were saved from the unemployment lines, so yeah, patience is THE virtue here and all further conversation proves impatience and ignorance to the complexity of the process. Now with that being said...

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 11):
Plain and simple, the airline industry is all about dollar and [lack of] sense. Those that are ruthless, cavalier, and pin-headed enough to demand credit for something as un-spectacular as coordinating a merger between two REALLY bad airlines (which btw, still has horrible labor issues...especially concerning seniority, pay rate, benefits and retirement plans, and employee morale) are the ones that excel at their jobs.

Unspectacular? As opposed to what, a Super Nova? It's pretty spectacular pal, especially successfully bringing them together profitably in this market climate, there is no "pin-headedness" to any aspect of this process. Do you think Parker never should have accepted the CEO position at that "really bad" America West and if he had, not to work to save it from itself? Since he did save it from itself and led profit, product quality and morale to higher levels than America West had known in a very long time, if ever, do you think it lacked "sense" to look hard at his beleaguered industry and not take pro-active measures to best protect the interests of his investors, creditors and employees? By taking the the initiative to get in front of the then obvious need of industry consolidation, HP wasn't/isn't sucking hind-tit in merger or takeover scenarios. It takes a hell of a lot of intellectual incompetence to make the statements you've made, especially standing on the outside looking in and speaking the way you do.

My concern with Parker is now ego with this move on Delta. However, we know nothing of the real game plan, keep in mind how Parker ricocheted off of ATA to wind up with US, this whole thing is a very big chess game and is a long way from being over. Just keep ego in check Doug, remember, the biggest isn't necessarily the best (AA), the best is CO and WN in the legacy and LCC categories respectively.


User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3226 times:

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 1):
Evidently some people won't be happy until they bankrupt the airline yet again.

Good word. There is decades of EVIDENCE that what you say is 100% correct. The equilibrium is at the very edge of bankruptcy. Over time, that has been the industry performance. The reason is pilot unions.

Other industries - managed by the same idiots who run airlines - have done spectacularly well over the same period.

But I don't blame pilots. Their wage is spectacularly high, considering they are not scarce or in much demand. $100k for them is darn respectable, and so is their vacation schedule. You need a PhD to match that on the streets. Hello Professor?

Pilots do what seems obvious to them. Maximize their pay, no matter who gets hurt. But when they start to WHINE... after causing so many people grief over the years... and make illiterate comments about the labor market... very few have the desire to respond, but I will do so, thoughtfully.

US demanding cost neutral pilot contracts was indeed tight fisted. US is renowned for tight fistedness and low pay, up down the line. But they had more business worries 1 yr ago. Turns out offering the HP contract is no big additional burden, even though pilots are already higher paid than any management staff except VPs. Again, good for them. Union strength is predictable. So are bankruptcies and furloughs.

Should they all get a further 10%+ raise? That is a technical question, and the answer is definitely not. Ask any HR professsional or labor economist. If it is a moral question, the answer is yes, they deserve whatever makes their heart warm with delight. Uh-oh, the company will probably go BK.


User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

Actually I want to say one more thing. Pilots may make better money than company types. But they have also saved many lives with good flying. The last 5 years have been spectacular for the USA airline safety. Pilots bring a lot of professionalism to the job. I feel that's more important than the airlines themselves. Corporate types come and go. But the pilots remain the same (really, the very same guys and gals). Pilots deserve a spot of control. It's drastically unhealthy for the corporations, but maybe it's more healthy for the passengers. Just a thought.

User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 19):
There are so many pilots out there that are looking for work.

No longer true. If you have a pulse and a few hundred hours you have a job at a regional. There are, of course, always going to be fully qualified pilots out of work for one reason or another, but the furlough numbers are not the real story anymore.

The pilot and other workers at these airlines have given massive concessions. I don't think it is greed that is what has them asking for a piece of the profit pie now that US Airways is in the black again. Desperate straits required desperate measures a few years ago. Now it is time for the company to acknowledge and pay the people who helped them get back to health.

Compensation parity is the ONLY possible way forward in the merger of these two airlines. There are many more obstacles, of course, but without pay parity there will be a lot of animosity.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 5):
Parker is just a tight ass, who refuses to do anything, because any dips in cashflow and performance, means that he doesn't get such a large bonus check, and stock benefits when it's time to file the 10K.



Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 8):
It never ceases to amaze me how some people here are such experts on Doug Parker.

All I need to know about Doug Parker is that he walked away from $5 billion in pension liabilities, only to turn around and "raise" $8 billion to go buy Delta. Class act...


25 Flyboyaz : It was pretty sad.. Old HP CSR's started at 7.65/hr and topped out around 13.00/hr. After Doug took over, he allowed even topped out employees to get
26 Post contains images JBClark :
27 Post contains images SHUPirate1 : You sure it starts you at 8.50 an hour? When I was at my (failed, again) interview two weeks ago, they told me that CSA starting pay was $8.72 an hou
28 Silentbob : There's nothing wrong with asking for more money. However the threats and constant complaining when they don't get it certainly shows an overabundanc
29 Post contains images StarCityFlyr : Thank you very much! I'm sincerely flattered. Have a great day.
30 Tugger : I do not get your comment. Are you saying they would be better off NOT getting a raise? If someone wants to give me $4.00 an hour more I'll take it.
31 Bobnwa : Please explain how the math works in your statement. Are you saying if they got a raise, the net raise would be zero? I don't think so!!
32 Bobnwa : What pensions did Parker walk away from?
33 RiddlePilot215 : Which he hasn't been too far from doing. The only reason why that won't happen is the same reason why the FAA will never privatize our radar towers..
34 FSPilot747 : Perhaps "Silentbob" should stay silent about things he does not know about. Pilots gave more than anybody when the industry went South. Let's not for
35 Jmc1975 : It has nothing to do with a class act. We're in a different era now. Decisions must be made as to how to make the airline (and the industry as a whol
36 LAXdude1023 : In my book its not a matter of Doug Parker being a good CEO or not. Its whether DL and US are good fits for one another. US and HP were good for each
37 JBClark : You've just proved Jmc1975's point. How do you know his character? This is exactly the point that was being made about how people are self-proclaimed
38 Gigneil : Silentbob is right. That's why he's speaking. NS
39 Silentbob : If said pilots had waited more than a few hours after the company posted the first profitable quarter in years before they began demanding their shar
40 DeltaGuy : Personally, US needs to worry about their own battles with their first merger before taking on another one. If I were a fuloughed US pilot, I'd be scr
41 Whappeh : I could be wrong, but as I gather it all, the $8bil that US ponied up to buy Delta is lent money from creditors/investors. Payments come from money t
42 Gigneil : Um, and then done what with all of them? Pay you to sit and not fly? Come on dude, use your brain. N
43 Positiverate : That presumes that meeting your retirement obligations to your employees has no quantifiable impact on your bottom line. I would argue that working t
44 USPIT10L : I couldn't agree more, although the reason I left DGS last year was because of the treatment, not the pay. Actually, both Parker and Scott Kirby agre
45 Positiverate : Funny. The US/HP merger isn't finished, and both Kirby and Parker are in DC tomorrow meeting with DOJ and the Hill to discuss the DL merger. Seems to
46 Whappeh : That seems to be excessively nit-picky. Look at it like this: You're restoring a car, you're half way done, and the car you want to work on next is o
47 Positiverate : The poster stated the following: Seems to me lobbying regulators and the Hill, meeting creditors, and talking to financiers constitutes "actual work"
48 Post contains images Jmc1975 : You are completely missing the point, or maybe you are just trying to be cute. By doing work on the merger means the integration of the two airlines.
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