Trekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5671 times:
Surprised its taken this long to come onto the forums.
I hope CC take the right move AND DONT STRIKE
A strike affects the whole operation, not just the passengers who bring the money into the airline, but also all teh other areas, customer support, airport workers, etc etc etc.
BASSA in my opinion just want a fight.
One reason i wont join a union is becasue of what happened at my last job while in the GMB. They were asking for strike action nearly every 2 weeks, and did 3 times while i was there. Best paid job i ever had, but no, not good enough for them.
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3331 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5646 times:
I had noticed that the BA pensions negotiations had gone quiet
The problem is that we were lead to believe for many years in the UK that early retirement was going to be an automatic right. Unfortunately however the money has run out.
The government has totally failed to give good leadership on the matter, and backed down from raising the pension age of Civil Servants just prior to the last elections, for fear of upsetting the Unions.
Whilst I fully realise that raising retirement ages is the way forward; workers are entitled to feel hard done by when they see their taxes paying for civil servants to retire earlier than they can.
I just hope though that the BA unions don't force another strike, as BA have had enough problems not of their own making without this.
Wrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9 Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5629 times:
Quoting BAStew (Thread starter): The BASSA union representing the overwhelming majority of BA cabin crew in the UK are to ballot for industrial action.
Members have been advised ballot forms will be arriving from Dec 18 onwards.
The ballot will close on Jan 12th, the union then needs to provide BA with 7 days notice of striking.
The reasons for the ballot are a general breakdown in relations between BA and the BASSA union over many issues but predominately:
- Merging of 'old' and 'new' cabin crew contracts.
- the removal of a Purser position from the B747 aircraft.
I'm with Trekster, cabin crew, please don't strike !.
Everyone seems to think about themselves (I know people will say they don't, but let's face it, they do) and like the pilots, the unions can't seem to see what a strike would do to the rest of the company.
So, they are striking over the pension problem: Everyone has to deal with that problem, so striking won't help anything.
Merging of 'old and 'new' cabin crew contracts: Someone explain what the problem with this is ? I'm not too clued up on that bit.
The removal of the purser position from the 747 fleet: You must be kidding, there are pursers on the 767, 777 and all of the S/H fleet, and since the cabin crew won't be losing their jobs, what's the problem ?, other areas have lost loads of jobs over the years, and the cabin/flight crew haven't, perhaps it's only fair that the cabin and flight crew take a bit of the punch too, since it is their costs and 'alowances' that take quiet a bite of the money BA earn.
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
Theginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1121 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5594 times:
I have heard on the wires that they might be balloting for Strike action.
The BA cabin crew union are very strong. For instance I believe that the cabin crew have to ask the Union if they want to go into discretion! Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Some of their terms and conditions, like being paid to sit and have a break in the CAT lounge and such like need kicking into the real world! Also the fact that crew get seem to get accomadation on back to backs paid for by BA.
If I am wrong about any of the above someone correct me!!
I hope they don't strike as it will only put more people off flying BA and send them to their competitors!
Sketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1774 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5523 times:
PLEASE DONT STRIKE
We as a company have been through such a lot in the last couple of years. The last thing we need is a strike.
Other areas of the business have been through all of this before and there was no need for strike action then.
I know we all need to think of ourselves but just think if strike action is taken there may be nothing to come back to
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9171 posts, RR: 52 Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5492 times:
Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3): The removal of the purser position from the 747 fleet: You must be kidding, there are pursers on the 767, 777 and all of the S/H fleet, and since the cabin crew won't be losing their jobs, what's the problem ?,
I believe that there are two purser positions on the 747 with one for the forward and one for the rear of the plane. Other planes in the fleet only have a single purser, but I may be wrong about that.
Quoting BA787 (Reply 5): Strike really isn't needed at the moment, just a bit sad that relations are so bad
Well employees always want higher wages and companies want lower wages. It's an epic battle, but wages are somewhat flexible. In times when the industry is struggling financially like it did right after the terrorist attacks in the United States, wages will decline, but in times like now when BA is making significant profits, it is time to give back to employees and increase their wages back. The word strike just sets off bells and whistles. They probably won't strike, but it shows where the union is and how dissatisfied they are. Just the mention of strike is bad and the airline will fight to get that word off the table since the threat of a strike can drive away customers. Also words of striking have a big impact on morale, which translates to service. So the mentioning of a strike can have an effect even if there is no chance that the union will strike.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
CO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5471 times:
Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 9): Attention Crew!!!
PLEASE DONT STRIKE
We as a company have been through such a lot in the last couple of years. The last thing we need is a strike.
PLEASE DON'T MAKE the CABIN CREW STRIKE
They have been trough such a lot (day-in and day-out) in the last couple of years.
The last thing they need is a good shag from management.
Shamrock_747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5455 times:
It is true there are issues that need resolving, however the way BASSA are going about it is childish and overly militant.
The flyer about the strike they have sent out to members completely demonises BA management and exaggerates the issues. They've been posted out in bright red envelopes with "IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM BASSA!!!" written in huge characters - I'm not able to take something seriously when it's presented in a style that would appeal to 6 year olds!
CrossChecked From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 252 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5439 times:
We desperately don't want to strike, who does?! There was initially talk of a strike on the 23rd December which would have completely devastated Christmas travel for millions of people.
However, we realise the obligation that we have to our passengers and have decided to move the strike (if it's held) to a less important date. Yes, it's still going to have an affect on our customers, and for that we're sorry, but this is not a decision that's been taken lightly.
We're fighting for our futures here. Our pensions, our earnings, our prospects for promotion.
I don't want to discuss to much on here at the moment, but I ask you all to stick with us. We, the crew, truly hate the fact that the only way we seem to be able to get through to our employer is to take action that impacts on you, but it's an absolute must at this stage.
Your support - the public's support - is vital. We need you to stand behind us and we need you to come back to us when this action is over.
Trekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5431 times:
Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13): We need you to stand behind us and we need you to come back to us when this action is over.
Think not there. Who wants to go with an airline that again is/will/ HOPEFULLY NOT cause mayhem across the network. Bags all over, stranded passengers, HUGE loss in revenue due to moving pax to other airlines. Chaos in the call centres and check in halls.
All passengers care about is good service, decent crew, and getting to there destination. They dont want troubles with pay and pensions ( that if im right affect every company in the uk at the mo and of which BA are doing well at sorting out) spilling out and affecting them.
BAStew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1016 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5425 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 10): I believe that there are two purser positions on the 747 with one for the forward and one for the rear of the plane. Other planes in the fleet only have a single purser, but I may be wrong about that.
On the jumbo there is 1 'CSD' (cabin service director) and 4 Pursers (1 in First, 1 on upper deck, 1 in CW main deck, 1 in WT/WT+). On the 4 class 777 1 x CSD and 3 x Pursers and on the 767 1 x CSD and 2 x Pursers.
Quoting Theginge (Reply 6): The BA cabin crew union are very strong. For instance I believe that the cabin crew have to ask the Union if they want to go into discretion! Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Management need permission from BASSA if they wish us to operate outside our negotiated agreements.
This hasn't always been happening of late though. Management have gone to the unions for 'discretion' the unions have turnedthem down but management have gone ahead and done whatever anyway.
Personally, although a BASSA member I am no real fan of either BASSA or BA management. They are actually VERY similar. Both can be quite agressive, bull-ish and ignorant.
Although we are well paid in terms of industry action, a lot of our ways of operating are in the dark ages. We have NO bidding system at all for our flights, trips, days off etc on long-haul. We are only allowed to request two days in the country per month. We are only allowed to request to particular trips a YEAR. We wait for around ten years to get any sort of part time contract.
Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3): Merging of 'old and 'new' cabin crew contracts: Someone explain what the problem with this is ? I'm not too clued up on that bit.
There is a post '97 contract and a pre '97 contract. The difference in contracts only affects basic pay scales, not allowences, terms and conditions etc. It is a significant difference in the basic salary though, with people on an 'old' contract able to climb many more increments than those on the 'new contract'.
I believe cabin crew are the only workforce within BA where this disparity of two people doing exactly the same job are working on different contracts. I also am lead to believe that EU laws will forbid this in the future.
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3331 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5347 times:
Quoting BAStew (Reply 15): Although we are well paid in terms of industry action, a lot of our ways of operating are in the dark ages. We have NO bidding system at all for our flights, trips, days off etc on long-haul. We are only allowed to request two days in the country per month. We are only allowed to request to particular trips a YEAR. We wait for around ten years to get any sort of part time contract.
If its better elsewhere why not move ?
Surely no sane company lets its staff decide where and with whom they work
Most employees don't have this opportunity
Bastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1016 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5300 times:
Bogdog, where do you suggest I move to? Easyjet? Ryanair? Yeah right!
The point I was trying to make is that BA are not 'up to speed' when comparing our scheduling/roster flexibility with other large full service carriers.
Although BA management constantly beat the drum with graphs and presentations of how much we earn compared to our peers at other airlines, they are quite happy to gloss over the fact that perhaps we would be happy to negotiate a bit more on the money side if we had some of the flexibility other airlines afford their crews.
I'm not sure if you are crew yourself bogdog, or whom for, but it is actually fairly industry standard for the scheds to have a bidding system for their crews. Or at least a facility for crew to be able to swap trips etc (something else we are not allowed to do at BA even if you have 2 willing participants with two trips of exact same length).
Shamrock_747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5284 times:
I think it's worth noting almost all the points mentioned about flexibility/bidding/trip swaps etc are available to crew at BA's Gatwick Fleet. This does, of course, come at as cost - the pay, terms and conditions are very much industry standard, and therefore significantly less than LHR.
Sketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1774 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5245 times:
The point I was trying to make is that BA are not 'up to speed' when comparing our scheduling/roster flexibility with other large full service carriers.[/quote]
I work for BA and have friends as crew. I was on a trip a couple of weeks back and a crew colleague of mine swapped/bidded to come to my destination and fly back with me.
I was under the impression all BA crew could bid for what and where they wanted to go. I know its not a given but it would be taken into consideration.
I know that you dont have the vest terms with all of the airlines out there, but you do have a lot better than other airlines crew.
I can also understand that some of the issues you have are very uneasing, as I myself do, but should it really lead to BASSA wanting crew to strike?
Speedbird2155 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 856 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5240 times:
Quoting BAStew (Reply 15): I believe cabin crew are the only workforce within BA where this disparity of two people doing exactly the same job are working on different contracts. I also am lead to believe that EU laws will forbid this in the future.
Until recently, ground staff also had different contracts, with the new starter rates which had been introduced a few years back. This was only abolished after much discussion with management and those negotiations took a couple years.
When BA have a cabin crew shortage, I am sure they will change the rostering arrangements; while they have plenty of applicants why bother ?
Bogdog, we currently have 14,000 ish crew and the retirement age is now 65. So i'm, not sure when an opportunity for what you propose will come, but I guess it is an option.....maybe by 2045 all of us exisiting crew will be gone.
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 19): You admit that by industry standards the pay is good, ever wondered why ?
Yes I have wondered. And the answer is quite simple. Because this is the pay that has been negotiated between BA management and the unions. Plain and simple.
Yes, it is a good pay, but I think most crew are very happy working for BA with their current t&c's and this helps BA achieve the enormous profits they have made recently. And of course, the crews and unions will be very keen to protect the terms and conditions they have fought so hard for.
Do all banks pay their clerks the exact same rate? or do some pay better than others? Do all airlines pay their pilots, or engineers, or ground staff exactly the same salary? Or do they vary.
Whatever the job, whatever the industry there will always be one company that pays the most and one that pays the least.
HOWEVER............pay does not form any part of the industrial ballot and I for one am certainly not complaining about it. So a bit irrelevant to the post really.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7061 posts, RR: 17 Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5058 times:
Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13): However, we realise the obligation that we have to our passengers and have decided to move the strike (if it's held) to a less important date. Yes, it's still going to have an affect on our customers, and for that we're sorry, but this is not a decision that's been taken lightly.
Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13): We're fighting for our futures here. Our pensions, our earnings, our prospects for promotion.
If 'fighting' means strike one outcome is certain. If you strike passengers will go elsewhere. Some will return after the strike. Others will not. So then staff will have to fight for their jobs because there will be fewer of them.
Of course the right to strike is a basic freedom and sometimes needs to be exercised. But striking is the very last resort when every other avenue has been explored and you are convinced not only that your case is water tight but that on balance the situation after the strike is better than it was before the strike. My experience as an ASTMS (as it was then) representative was that this very rarely was the case. The most usual affect of a strike was a reduction in the work force. The worst affect of a strike was no work force at all after the employer closed down.
Sure the employer has responsibilities to its employees. But its employees also have responsibilities to themselves and their families. And regret when it is too late is not an acceptable palliative.
I do not know if the merging of cabin crew contracts could be a striking matter. But I would doubt it.
The loss of a purser position on 747s can only be considered as a striking matter if it is achieved through non-voluntary redundancies.
Pensions in the current climate cannot be a striking matter unless you are a government employee. Then you know that your employer can afford to pay up simply through raising taxation and ensuring that you benefit while your neighbour and those you have a drink with at your local foot the bill. If you work for a commercial company like BA the only solution to the current nationwide pension problem is to try to understand the problems your pension plan is suffering and their causes and negotiate the best possible solution. Here you are in a very fortunate position compared to, for example, someone with a private pension plan. I know someone with such a plan (which, of course, is a money purchase scheme) where the total value of the plan is below the total contributions they have made. That is they would have been better off if they had put their contributions under their mattress instead of their pension plan.
The stated TUC position on pensions is that for every £1 contribution that an employee makes to a pension plan the employer should contribute £2. I think BA staff should try to do a little better than this - perhaps a BA contribution of £2.50. Then BA employees as a group can decide how much they are willing to contribute. Multiply this by 3.5 (1+2.5) and get an independent expert to tell you what this will mean as a pension at various retirement dates. Then negotiate to try to get a bit more. Pay a bit more yourselves and then agree amongst yourselves what retirement age you will accept recognising with a finite pot of money that your contribution levels and your retirement age and your retirement income are totally interdependent.
Recognise that life expectancy will not return to its historic lower levels. Also recognise that stable, low interest rates mean lower mortgage repayments but, if you do not put the money saved into your pension plan, lower pensions as well. Finally recognise that the government is spending the £5 billion plus it took out of pension plans nearly ten years ago when it abolished Advanced Corporation Tax and cannot put it back unless it either cuts public services or raises income tax or VAT.
25 Wrighbrothers: Ah, thanks for the explination. Where was your support when all those staff post 9/11 were fired or recieved job cuts, why should they support you no
26 VonRichtofen: Are the pensions under threat? I thought Pensions were protected by UK labour law? Kris
27 Wrighbrothers: Well, no, the pensions themselves are not under threat. However, the problem is that the crew (and all other employees) will have to work for longer
28 FCAFLYBOY: This is a copy of an email I've received from a mate working for BA.... I'll put it on ONLY because the email is now in a massive circulation all over
29 Jettygirl: As BA crew I would like to put my opinion forward. 1. Pensions. Yes many companies have had problems with thier pension schemes lately. However, BA's
30 Scotron11: 1. Pensions. Yes many companies have had problems with thier pension schemes lately. However, BA's solution simply isn't viable. Under my current con
31 TBCITDG: Don't you just love it when people who know nothing about the industry or don't even work in the industry like to comment on how things should be run?
32 AIR MALTA: Well BA does not need another blow now after 3 summer strikes, terror alerts, nuke jets, catering problems and London bombings. This airline is slowly
33 Bongodog1964: Why is it that commercial aviation is different to any other industry ? There can be no other that has such a consistent record of destroying shareho
34 Jettygirl: Bongodog, So you are quite happy to accept that you will pay much more money into your pension scheme but get less out? Well more fool you. And yes I
35 Bongodog1964: Sorry not a fool just a realist who has to pay for his own pension Please don't even try to justify this it cannot possibly be correct, you need to r
36 Jettygirl: Once again I'll explain it to you. I have read my contract (have you? You seem to have such a strong opinion about something you have never read)and i
37 Sketty222: Jettygirl, your the fool and very small minded by not considering and listening to other peoples point of view. With regards to your pension, you can
38 BAStew: In terms of pay increases I think jettygirl is referring to the increments. There are basically 8 yearly increments from start date (there used to be
39 Bongodog1964: Do I get an apology now Jettygirl ? At least I've always understood my terms of employment, and have a grasp of reality
40 BAStew: Last night (thursday) after the latest round of BASSA union/management talks 'reached no conclusion' the union chairman gave the legally required 7 da
41 BAStew: Just an update............. There seems to have been a deterioration in relations between BA management and the union. Talks have been ongoing in the