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Who Names Fixes/waypoints?  
User currently offlineNYCA330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 124 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9603 times:

I was just looking at STAR procedures for KJAX (don't ask me why. okay- flightsim), and i noticed that among the fixes for the POGIE1 arrival were "SHINR" and "BASSS", which are both fish that can be caught in northeast florida (along with pogie, of course). I assume a local fishing enthusiast was involved in naming these. So... when were these named, and who got to name them? This question doesn't only apply to JAX, i notice a lot of local flavor for other airports as well. This question can extend to a lot of other waypoints as well, since they often seem to come in themes... I see that in Japan there are CELLO and VIOLA. Anyone?

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCXB744 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9595 times:

Some intersections are named after landmarks they are near. Out here in SoCal we have GINNA intersection over Gina Lake.


What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2525 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9575 times:

I've often wondered the same. Here at HNL, we feature the "MAGGI 3" arrival although I doubt there are many locals here with that name. The letter "G" isn't even in the Hawaiian alphabet!

Another notable intersection is "BEARS" which sits just off the lakeshore near Soldier Field in Chicago.

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9539 times:

There's TIO (Coco VOR), TOMAS, MONTE, LIO (Limón VOR, actually Lio is an Ice Tea brand in Costa Rica), TIGRE, RAMON, ATENAS, PARAI (short for Paraiso, a town in Cartago province) here in Costa Rica as waypoint names. Some of the departures are even named RAMON departure, ATENAS departure, even CACAO departure. My favourite however is PESTO waypoint on the UB767 airway. Just hearing the name of it makes me hungry for some pasta with pesto (a basil paste for use on breads and pasta dishes). Big grin

I also want to know who names those waypoints.


User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9535 times:

There's one arrival in a florida airport where you come over ITAWT ITAWA PUDDY TTATT, if you go missed then the holding point is IDEED.

User currently offlineCharlipr From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2005, 340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9527 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 4):
There's one arrival in a florida airport where you come over ITAWT ITAWA PUDDY TTATT, if you go missed then the holding point is IDEED.



Acutally, the one you are talking about is the Portsmouth, NH (KPSM) RNAV (GPS) RWY 16 approach.


User currently offline3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9521 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 4):
There's one arrival in a florida airport where you come over ITAWT ITAWA PUDDY TTATT, if you go missed then the holding point is IDEED.

That's Portsmouth, NH, not in Florida.

Sometimes points or procedures or other airspace features are named after people working in the industry who help develop them, e.g. this one.


User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1741 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9479 times:

MCI has some good ones:

SPICY, BARBQ, and RIBBS

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/00780I1RC3.PDF


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9468 times:

They used to be human-named, yes...like TRAIL and BLAZR (both fixes for the ILS RWY 10L approach at PDX-BLAZR is the final aproach fix).

I've heard that they are now computer-named, however after looking at the RNAV RWY 10 approach at 5T6 (Santa Teresa, NM): http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/09068R10.PDF , I can tell you this (about the fix names): WAREG is named for the War Eagles Air Museum, located on the field. SAZAR is named for Susie Azar, the former mayor of El Paso, TX, who kept her plane at Santa Teresa, and was a flight instructor there  Smile SUSIQ is named for Suzy-Q, a famous P-51D Mustang, at one time owned by the late John Macguire, who started the War Eagles Air Museum with his private warbirds collection (I believe Suzy-Q was lost in an accident at Reno in the late 1970's). Sounds like too much of a coincidence for the fixes to be computer named to me  Wink The approach at 5T6 was certified late last year.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21877 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9463 times:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 2):
Another notable intersection is "BEARS" which sits just off the lakeshore near Soldier Field in Chicago.

KUBBS is around there as well.

The MSP area is filled with local references:
WOLVS, TWOLF (references to the Timberwolves basketball team)
TWINZ, KBREW, HRBEK (references to the Twins baseball team, and two ex-players)
WILDD (reference to the Wild hockey team)
SKETR (no shortage of mosquitoes in Minnesota)
OLLEE (as in the Ole and Lena joke, aka "stupid upper midwesterner joke")

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9461 times:

Well, the key is that is has to be pronounceable. Almost every major airport in the US has fixes that have some relevance to the area:

"b. Names assigned for waypoints, intersections, Air Traffic Control (ATC) coordination, and Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) fixes not co-located with a navigational aid shall consist of a single five-letter pronounceable name. These five letters shall serve as the name, identifier, and computer code.
c. Regional/service area office requests for specific five-letter names for radio fixes and waypoints should be avoided, but may be granted by Aeronautical Information Management if feasible.
d. Five-letter names that are assigned by National Flight Procedures Office and major commands will be coordinated with the associated ARTCC to preclude similar sounding fix names.
e. Aeronautical Information Management shall not duplicate any radio fix, waypoint, marker beacons or compass locators names.
f. A fix or waypoint name change is required if the fix/waypoint is moved 5 NM or more unless operational requirements dictate otherwise"


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offline3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9441 times:

Quoting NYCA330 (Thread starter):
I was just looking at STAR procedures for KJAX (don't ask me why. okay- flightsim), and i noticed that among the fixes for the POGIE1 arrival were "SHINR" and "BASSS", which are both fish that can be caught in northeast florida (along with pogie, of course). I

And here I thought Shiner and Bass were beers...


User currently offlineIahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9373 times:

All centers have a list that is "reserved" for their use and the approach control facilities within that center airspace. That list is made up of 5 letter names that have been checked by U.S. and ICAO folks to verify that there is no 2 names spelled exactly the same anywhere in the world. When you request a specific spelling for an intersection within NAS that is the run up the flag pole to through Aviations Standards to see if it is "reserved" anyplace or currently in use. If not, have at it.

There are some very very good names for waypoints/intesections, sometimes they fit the local area other times just having fun. Such as SEEYA way out on a long south downwind from the GLAND Arrival to IAH, they wouldn't let ADIOS'! Many many more too.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9325 times:

Waypoints are named according to ICAO Annex 11. Each is a 5 letter name code (5LNC) supposedly unique in this world or amongst the ICAO contracting states. Usually waypoints are named by the individual state's ANSP or the authorities responsible for procedure design.

Waypoints are sometimes named after a local location or feature but not necessarily. Examples are LAMMA in Hong Kong FIR after Lamma Island, SOKOE after the Sokoe Islands, LESTA in London FIR after Leicester, CHELT after Cheltenham.

Air Services Australia allows you to name your waypoints each for a A$100 donation to a charity.
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/namegate.asp

These names are then checked against ICARD or their regional ICAO offices for validity and uniqueness. The ICARD facility is maintained by Eurocontrol and supports the ICAO 5LNC allocation. It maintains a database of 5LNCs issued by ICAO and the status of each one (available/taken). Access to ICARD requires membership of OneSky Online, open only to ANSPs and specified aviation related organizations.
http://www.eurocontrol.int/icard/public/standard_page/5lnc.html

Hope this helps.



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1487 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9303 times:

DFW has NOLAN RYANN XPRES (sorry if the spelling is not accurate my flight bag is at work and my memory is not what it used to be).

DEN has BAYLR and ZIMMR from the original Colorado Rockies team.

The FAF for RWY22R at ORD is Ridge which is located in the park ridge neighborhood. RWY 14R at ORD has SEXXY as a fix and I have no idea why it is named, but perhaps the guy with the names had a girlfriend in the neighborhood  Wink


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9302 times:

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 12):
checked by U.S. and ICAO folks to verify that there is no 2 names spelled exactly the same anywhere in the world.

how do you explain then on many int'l trips when loading the flt pln I must choose which ABCDE(waypoint) I want because there may be several with the same name and the dist from last entered point and lat/lon are how you know which is correct. The FMS page is labeled Duplicate Waypoints.

CDG had and may still have a VOR and either another VOR or NDB with the same name for years, that was confusing.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9281 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 15):
how do you explain then on many int'l trips when loading the flt pln I must choose which ABCDE(waypoint) I want because there may be several with the same name and the dist from last entered point and lat/lon are how you know which is correct.

I can't because that only in the last 4-5 yrs that the NAS has been looking for dups, does that mean it is fool proof, NOT....only what is being strived for....sir!



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineTinpusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 983 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9221 times:

To answer the question, they are named by Air Traffic Controllers...at least some of them used to be. Im quite sure by now, they must be computer generated.


"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineLVTMB From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9189 times:

Quoting CXB744 (Reply 1):
Out here in SoCal we have GINNA intersection over Gina Lake.

And MAGIC over Magic Mountain ...

MB


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9078 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 16):
I can't because that only in the last 4-5 yrs that the NAS has been looking for dups, does that mean it is fool proof, NOT....only what is being strived for....sir!

No need to get testy..... sir! I was only adding to the info re: the post. As a matter of fact I just landed about 2 hrs ago from Europe and found 2 different waypoints/navaids with duplicates. NEW...is Newcastle U.K. which was the one I was wanting as it was 153 nm ahead and another NEW that was 5647 nm away. I created a definded waypoint for the com boundry point for Icelandic ATC using its ID BIRD only to find there were 5 BIRD points around the world. It's not uncommon at all.


User currently offlineBigJimFX From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9044 times:

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 14):
DFW has NOLAN RYANN XPRES (sorry if the spelling is not accurate my flight bag is at work and my memory is not what it used to be).

Don't forget BPARK over The Ball Park in Arlington, or GVINE over grapevine.



I'd like to thank me for flying Me Airways...
User currently offlineIahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9021 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 19):
No need to get testy..... sir

Oh that's wrong.....I wasn't getting testy at all, the sir was simply respectful not pissy, sorry you took in wrong, now you can owe me!  Smile

Back to the thread! As we all know things in the FAA change at glacier like speeds so in order to get inline with the concept it may take another decade or longer!



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9003 times:

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 21):
now you can owe me!

It's a deal!

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 21):
the concept it may take another decade or longer!

Considering how many duplicates we see worldwide, I would almost say it may be impossible. I will go so far as to say that on an int'l trip you will see duplicates somewhere on every fight.



Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):
MCI has some good ones:

SPICY, BARBQ, and RIBBS

Just to add.. MEM has ELVIS, BLEWS(blues), and HANDY(W.C.Handy father of the blues)


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8983 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 22):
It's a deal!

Roger!!!!

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 22):
Considering how many duplicates we see worldwide, I would almost say it may be impossible. I will go so far as to say that on an int'l trip you will see duplicates somewhere on every fight.

Write up irregularity reports if your airline uses them and toss in the "safety" term when your FMC comes up with the lovely inssufficent fuel when you select the wrong dup!  Smile Is that feasable?



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8972 times:

Some around MSY

ROYUL
POSUM
CREOL
ZYDCO
VOODO
RYTHM

With the RYTHM 3 ARRIVAL being the STAR that most aircraft inbound from the North follow



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
25 Bond007 : Right, but I think we're talking about several TYPES of navaid/points here. Waypoints, Intersections, VORs, NDBs, etc. With 3 character codes, there
26 IAHFLYR : Some are at best a stretch to pronounce for sure.
27 CosmicCruiser : Not really since the FMS "handles" duplicate waypoints with a designated page. 99.9% of the time the first one is the right one 'cause it's the close
28 Bond007 : Yes, it always seems to defeat the object of being 'pronounceable', when ATC has to also spell it out phonetically for you, which happens some of the
29 Post contains images Iahflyr : I know of a controller or more that has had an issue with a pilot and heard them say to go direct....Delta India Charlie Kilo Kilo, I totally lost it
30 Mcdu : The phonetic spelling by ATC is often for fixes that might not be on your route and not visible in the FMC or for a fix that may be spelled more than
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