NYCA330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 124 posts, RR: 0 Posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11685 times:
I was just looking at STAR procedures for KJAX (don't ask me why. okay- flightsim), and i noticed that among the fixes for the POGIE1 arrival were "SHINR" and "BASSS", which are both fish that can be caught in northeast florida (along with pogie, of course). I assume a local fishing enthusiast was involved in naming these. So... when were these named, and who got to name them? This question doesn't only apply to JAX, i notice a lot of local flavor for other airports as well. This question can extend to a lot of other waypoints as well, since they often seem to come in themes... I see that in Japan there are CELLO and VIOLA. Anyone?
1 CXB744
: Some intersections are named after landmarks they are near. Out here in SoCal we have GINNA intersection over Gina Lake.
2 777fan
: I've often wondered the same. Here at HNL, we feature the "MAGGI 3" arrival although I doubt there are many locals here with that name. The letter "G"
3 LTU932
: There's TIO (Coco VOR), TOMAS, MONTE, LIO (Limón VOR, actually Lio is an Ice Tea brand in Costa Rica), TIGRE, RAMON, ATENAS, PARAI (short for Paraiso
4 Graphic
: There's one arrival in a florida airport where you come over ITAWT ITAWA PUDDY TTATT, if you go missed then the holding point is IDEED.
5 Charlipr
: Acutally, the one you are talking about is the Portsmouth, NH (KPSM) RNAV (GPS) RWY 16 approach.
3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11603 times:
Quoting Graphic (Reply 4): There's one arrival in a florida airport where you come over ITAWT ITAWA PUDDY TTATT, if you go missed then the holding point is IDEED.
That's Portsmouth, NH, not in Florida.
Sometimes points or procedures or other airspace features are named after people working in the industry who help develop them, e.g. this one.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11550 times:
They used to be human-named, yes...like TRAIL and BLAZR (both fixes for the ILS RWY 10L approach at PDX-BLAZR is the final aproach fix).
I've heard that they are now computer-named, however after looking at the RNAV RWY 10 approach at 5T6 (Santa Teresa, NM): http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/09068R10.PDF , I can tell you this (about the fix names): WAREG is named for the War Eagles Air Museum, located on the field. SAZAR is named for Susie Azar, the former mayor of El Paso, TX, who kept her plane at Santa Teresa, and was a flight instructor there SUSIQ is named for Suzy-Q, a famous P-51D Mustang, at one time owned by the late John Macguire, who started the War Eagles Air Museum with his private warbirds collection (I believe Suzy-Q was lost in an accident at Reno in the late 1970's). Sounds like too much of a coincidence for the fixes to be computer named to me The approach at 5T6 was certified late last year.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 22636 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11545 times:
Quoting 777fan (Reply 2): Another notable intersection is "BEARS" which sits just off the lakeshore near Soldier Field in Chicago.
KUBBS is around there as well.
The MSP area is filled with local references:
WOLVS, TWOLF (references to the Timberwolves basketball team)
TWINZ, KBREW, HRBEK (references to the Twins baseball team, and two ex-players)
WILDD (reference to the Wild hockey team)
SKETR (no shortage of mosquitoes in Minnesota)
OLLEE (as in the Ole and Lena joke, aka "stupid upper midwesterner joke")
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5646 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11543 times:
Well, the key is that is has to be pronounceable. Almost every major airport in the US has fixes that have some relevance to the area:
"b. Names assigned for waypoints, intersections, Air Traffic Control (ATC) coordination, and Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) fixes not co-located with a navigational aid shall consist of a single five-letter pronounceable name. These five letters shall serve as the name, identifier, and computer code.
c. Regional/service area office requests for specific five-letter names for radio fixes and waypoints should be avoided, but may be granted by Aeronautical Information Management if feasible.
d. Five-letter names that are assigned by National Flight Procedures Office and major commands will be coordinated with the associated ARTCC to preclude similar sounding fix names.
e. Aeronautical Information Management shall not duplicate any radio fix, waypoint, marker beacons or compass locators names.
f. A fix or waypoint name change is required if the fix/waypoint is moved 5 NM or more unless operational requirements dictate otherwise"
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11523 times:
Quoting NYCA330 (Thread starter): I was just looking at STAR procedures for KJAX (don't ask me why. okay- flightsim), and i noticed that among the fixes for the POGIE1 arrival were "SHINR" and "BASSS", which are both fish that can be caught in northeast florida (along with pogie, of course). I
Iahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11455 times:
All centers have a list that is "reserved" for their use and the approach control facilities within that center airspace. That list is made up of 5 letter names that have been checked by U.S. and ICAO folks to verify that there is no 2 names spelled exactly the same anywhere in the world. When you request a specific spelling for an intersection within NAS that is the run up the flag pole to through Aviations Standards to see if it is "reserved" anyplace or currently in use. If not, have at it.
There are some very very good names for waypoints/intesections, sometimes they fit the local area other times just having fun. Such as SEEYA way out on a long south downwind from the GLAND Arrival to IAH, they wouldn't let ADIOS'! Many many more too.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
Cloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11407 times:
Waypoints are named according to ICAO Annex 11. Each is a 5 letter name code (5LNC) supposedly unique in this world or amongst the ICAO contracting states. Usually waypoints are named by the individual state's ANSP or the authorities responsible for procedure design.
Waypoints are sometimes named after a local location or feature but not necessarily. Examples are LAMMA in Hong Kong FIR after Lamma Island, SOKOE after the Sokoe Islands, LESTA in London FIR after Leicester, CHELT after Cheltenham.
These names are then checked against ICARD or their regional ICAO offices for validity and uniqueness. The ICARD facility is maintained by Eurocontrol and supports the ICAO 5LNC allocation. It maintains a database of 5LNCs issued by ICAO and the status of each one (available/taken). Access to ICARD requires membership of OneSky Online, open only to ANSPs and specified aviation related organizations. http://www.eurocontrol.int/icard/public/standard_page/5lnc.html
Mcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1554 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11385 times:
DFW has NOLAN RYANN XPRES (sorry if the spelling is not accurate my flight bag is at work and my memory is not what it used to be).
DEN has BAYLR and ZIMMR from the original Colorado Rockies team.
The FAF for RWY22R at ORD is Ridge which is located in the park ridge neighborhood. RWY 14R at ORD has SEXXY as a fix and I have no idea why it is named, but perhaps the guy with the names had a girlfriend in the neighborhood
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2268 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11384 times:
Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 12): checked by U.S. and ICAO folks to verify that there is no 2 names spelled exactly the same anywhere in the world.
how do you explain then on many int'l trips when loading the flt pln I must choose which ABCDE(waypoint) I want because there may be several with the same name and the dist from last entered point and lat/lon are how you know which is correct. The FMS page is labeled Duplicate Waypoints.
CDG had and may still have a VOR and either another VOR or NDB with the same name for years, that was confusing.
IAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11363 times:
Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 15): how do you explain then on many int'l trips when loading the flt pln I must choose which ABCDE(waypoint) I want because there may be several with the same name and the dist from last entered point and lat/lon are how you know which is correct.
I can't because that only in the last 4-5 yrs that the NAS has been looking for dups, does that mean it is fool proof, NOT....only what is being strived for....sir!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
Tinpusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1009 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11303 times:
To answer the question, they are named by Air Traffic Controllers...at least some of them used to be. Im quite sure by now, they must be computer generated.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
LVTMB From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11271 times:
Quoting CXB744 (Reply 1): Out here in SoCal we have GINNA intersection over Gina Lake.
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2268 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11160 times:
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 16): I can't because that only in the last 4-5 yrs that the NAS has been looking for dups, does that mean it is fool proof, NOT....only what is being strived for....sir!
No need to get testy..... sir! I was only adding to the info re: the post. As a matter of fact I just landed about 2 hrs ago from Europe and found 2 different waypoints/navaids with duplicates. NEW...is Newcastle U.K. which was the one I was wanting as it was 153 nm ahead and another NEW that was 5647 nm away. I created a definded waypoint for the com boundry point for Icelandic ATC using its ID BIRD only to find there were 5 BIRD points around the world. It's not uncommon at all.
BigJimFX From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11126 times:
Quoting Mcdu (Reply 14): DFW has NOLAN RYANN XPRES (sorry if the spelling is not accurate my flight bag is at work and my memory is not what it used to be).
Don't forget BPARK over The Ball Park in Arlington, or GVINE over grapevine.
Iahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11103 times:
Oh that's wrong.....I wasn't getting testy at all, the sir was simply respectful not pissy, sorry you took in wrong, now you can owe me!
Back to the thread! As we all know things in the FAA change at glacier like speeds so in order to get inline with the concept it may take another decade or longer!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2268 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11085 times:
Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 21): the concept it may take another decade or longer!
Considering how many duplicates we see worldwide, I would almost say it may be impossible. I will go so far as to say that on an int'l trip you will see duplicates somewhere on every fight.
IAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11065 times:
Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 22): Considering how many duplicates we see worldwide, I would almost say it may be impossible. I will go so far as to say that on an int'l trip you will see duplicates somewhere on every fight.
Write up irregularity reports if your airline uses them and toss in the "safety" term when your FMC comes up with the lovely inssufficent fuel when you select the wrong dup! Is that feasable?
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11054 times:
Some around MSY
ROYUL
POSUM
CREOL
ZYDCO
VOODO
RYTHM
With the RYTHM 3 ARRIVAL being the STAR that most aircraft inbound from the North follow
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5646 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11051 times:
Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 19): As a matter of fact I just landed about 2 hrs ago from Europe and found 2 different waypoints/navaids with duplicates. NEW...is Newcastle U.K. which was the one I was wanting as it was 153 nm ahead and another NEW that was 5647 nm away. I created a definded waypoint for the com boundry point for Icelandic ATC using its ID BIRD only to find there were 5 BIRD points around the world. It's not uncommon at all.
Right, but I think we're talking about several TYPES of navaid/points here. Waypoints, Intersections, VORs, NDBs, etc.
With 3 character codes, there is absolutely bound to be duplicates, simply due to limit of combinations....to a lesser point 4 character codes.
The initial discussions were about the 5 character fixes in STARS etc., and much of the comments on naming conventions and duplicates was relevant to those types of fixes...i.e. they must be pronounceable etc. The ICAO comments were specific to the 5LNC codes.
Oh, I'm not saying there aren't duplicate 5 character codes, but we're talking 3,4 and 5 chars here now.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
IAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 21
Reply 26, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11061 times:
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2268 posts, RR: 15
Reply 27, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11040 times:
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 23): Write up irregularity reports if your airline uses them and toss in the "safety" term when your FMC comes up with the lovely inssufficent fuel when you select the wrong dup! Is that feasable?
Not really since the FMS "handles" duplicate waypoints with a designated page. 99.9% of the time the first one is the right one 'cause it's the closest one to the previous waypoint. They get increasingly farther away as you go down the list. The only time you must scrountinize the choice is when two may be co-located with the same name or very close together such as a VOR and an NDB. Then you just check the flightplan to compare freq or lat/lon. If you do make the wrong choice then as you confirm your route on the plan page of the Nav Display you'll see the mistake when the magenta line hangs a 90(or worse yet 180) deg turn and "heads south"!! LOL
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 26): Some are at best a stretch to pronounce for sure.
That's an understatement! We cross chk the flt pln with what has been loaded in then FMS prior to pushback and rambling thru a looong flight plan as we chk off the points has gotten me tongue tied more than once.
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5646 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11017 times:
Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 27): rambling thru a looong flight plan as we chk off the points has gotten me tongue tied more than once.
Yes, it always seems to defeat the object of being 'pronounceable', when ATC has to also spell it out phonetically for you, which happens some of the time.
For most of the time though, it is a lot easier to fly 'Direct to CARDS', rather than 'Direct to X-Ray Bravo Yankee Uniform Uniform' for example, if they were just a random sequence of letters/numbers.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Iahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 21
Reply 29, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10986 times:
I know of a controller or more that has had an issue with a pilot and heard them say to go direct....Delta India Charlie Kilo Kilo, I totally lost it when I heard that, things got ugly quick!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
Mcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1554 posts, RR: 17
Reply 30, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 10900 times:
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 28): Yes, it always seems to defeat the object of being 'pronounceable', when ATC has to also spell it out phonetically for you, which happens some of the time.
The phonetic spelling by ATC is often for fixes that might not be on your route and not visible in the FMC or for a fix that may be spelled more than one way. Using the "cards" example it might be spelled "CARDS" or "CARDZ". You will want to make sure you are going to the correct fix because if you type in one when you want the other you could find yourself flying in a direction neither you or the controller had hoped for.
AA at Cali comes to mind. Rozo NB was listed as also coidentified with another fix. When selecting the fix in the FMC it gives the Lat/Long for confirmation. Without the Lat/Long handy you can make a mistake if you select the wrong one and in this case with tragic results. While it was not the cause of the crash it was a contributing factor.
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From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 124 posts, 
From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1747 posts, 
SUSIQ is named for Suzy-Q, a famous P-51D Mustang, at one time owned by the late John Macguire, who started the War Eagles Air Museum with his private warbirds collection (I believe Suzy-Q was lost in an accident at Reno in the late 1970's). Sounds like too much of a coincidence for the fixes to be computer named to me 
The approach at 5T6 was certified late last year.
From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2458 posts, 
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