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747 LCF No Winglets?  
User currently offlineJcded From Switzerland, joined Jan 2004, 213 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6599 times:

I was looking at boeingmedia.com and the picture of the "Dreamlifter" shows the plane without winglets, originally it was drawn with winglets, now it doesnt and the picture shows it without.

Any idea why they removed them, I mean with the extra weight, wouldn't they need the improved efficiency from the winglets?


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Photo © Erick Lopez




You breathe to do good and have fun.
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCleared2Land4 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6552 times:

hmmm i see them on the aircraft.....


United Airlines... "It's Time to Fly."
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6550 times:

Uhhh.. what do you think the things on the end of the wing are :P

Look at the white 'triangle' by the tail in the photo  Wink



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1985 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6538 times:

Right under the eponage there is this white "thing" that sticks out. This is the winglet you are looking for  Wink


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3660 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6512 times:
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That's the wrong picture. Here's the latest one showing no winglets:


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Photo © Erick Lopez


BTW, there already was post about this a couple of days ago:
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3129737/

[Edited 2006-12-07 05:33:37]

User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5697 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6496 times:
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I think our Swiss friend is actually referring to the picture at boeingmedia.com, it shows the announced "DreamLifter" livery without winglets
http://boeingmedia.com/imageDetail.cfm?id=14678&clr=release

jcded, I am pretty certain that picture is an artists impression, I would be surprised if they removed the winglets.

Cheers



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineAlexchao From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 688 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6486 times:

I'm pretty sure the winglets have been removed, and the artists rendition is accurate. Does anyone know why?

User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6479 times:

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 4):
That's the wrong picture. Here's the latest one showing no winglets:

Might have been removed for testing purposes?



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

Were these things all -400's before modification?

Also, I wonder how much advantage the winglets would provide at the (I imagine) lower cruise speeds of the LCF?

I do note that the in-house nickname for the LCF was "drag queen"; the incremental benefits of the winglets may have been insignificant in the long run.



Jets are for kids
User currently onlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4698 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6330 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 7):
Might have been removed for testing purposes?

could be. The winglets on the 744 are MEL items and increase fuel burn if removed. Might be testing that?



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineSEAdomer787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 115 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6191 times:
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Man, this forum never ceases to amaze me. Yesterday when a friend and I were leaving the 787 virtual rollout, where they revealed the LCF new livery, we had two speculations:

1) Someone would post a blurb about the new livery in a matter of minutes. Done.
2) Someone would start a thread about there not being winglets all of a sudden. Done.

Too Funny!!


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6023 times:

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 8):
Also, I wonder how much advantage the winglets would provide at the (I imagine) lower cruise speeds of the LCF?

Yes... much lower. When they were coming from Taiwan to BFI they averaged around 430knots. WAY lower than a normal 747 going eastbound.



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offline777MechSys From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 350 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5841 times:
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Greetings from Taipei.

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 8):
re these things all -400's before modification?

Yes. So far all 747's obtained for conversion are -400s.

The last I heard there will not be winglets on the LCF. Is that a final answer? Probably not. Time will tell.

-Erick


User currently offlineThepilot From Canada, joined Jan 2010, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5750 times:

Just recently, they were doing a test at BFI w/out winglets and they were 50,000 lbs over landing weight. I guess it is still in the experimental stage. The LCF (or the pickle's) wake turbulence that it flipped my friend's plane (C172) over Elliot Bay. That plane's wake is a monster!


From YVR
User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5681 times:

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 13):
Just recently, they were doing a test at BFI w/out winglets and they were 50,000 lbs over landing weight. I guess it is still in the experimental stage.

Where did you hear it was 50,000lbs over weight? I'm a bit skeptical of that. If it was 50,000lbs over landing weight that aircraft would have weighed in between 625,000 and 680,000lbs when it hit the runway. I'd be rather surprised if that were true being as close to certification as they are, why risk the airframe? Why fly it 50K over in the first place? It won't be close to over weight while carrying a 787 load.

Its experimental stage will be ending in about 2 weeks when it gets its cert.



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offline777MechSys From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 350 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5616 times:
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Quoting Thepilot (Reply 13):
That plane's wake is a monster!

Name 1 heavy lifter that isn't a wake monster. That is why ATC says "Caution wake turbulence."

Actually it wasn't "overweight". It was heavier than the landing weight it will be certified for. Nothing unusual here for a aircraft being test and certified.

[Edited 2006-12-08 07:08:42]

User currently offlineThepilot From Canada, joined Jan 2010, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5408 times:

Quoting 777MechSys (Reply 15):
Name 1 heavy lifter that isn't a wake monster. That is why ATC says "Caution wake turbulence."

No doubt about that, but without winglets and 50k overweight, its wake turbulence is much greater than when it has winglets and it at normal landing weight.

I fly out of BFI (& go up to PAE a bunch) and thus am around lots of heavies (and the B757), and know lots of pilots who fly around the area. Everyone at my FBO seems to agree that the LCF without winglets should be avoided at all costs, even going around at TPA if necessary.



From YVR
User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3949 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5388 times:

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 16):
Everyone at my FBO seems to agree that the LCF without winglets should be avoided at all costs...

... but it'll be okay to fly near it in a 152 if it does have winglets, right?

 rotfl 

R


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5222 times:

Perhaps it is a flight test? While winglets do improve fuel comsumption, they also reduce the crosswind componet.

User currently offline777MechSys From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 350 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5114 times:
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LCF will not have winglets.

Quick update. The tail has been opened on the second one.


User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3313 posts, RR: 39
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5096 times:

Maybe the different sized fuselage of the LCF compared to the original 747 means that the winglets are not suited to the slightly different sized wings (do the wings of the LCF have the same surface area as the original 744?)


Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
User currently offline777MechSys From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 350 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5043 times:
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Quoting Legoguy (Reply 20):
do the wings of the LCF have the same surface area as the original 744?)

The wings on the LCF sre the same as the 744. The verticle stab. is larger but the wings did not change.


User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3313 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4996 times:

Quoting 777MechSys (Reply 21):
The wings on the LCF sre the same as the 744.

Im just looking at the picture of the LCF now and just realizing that the fuselage where the wings meet the fuselage is exactly the same as the 747. The fuselage isn't widened until above the bulge at the bottom (whats the name of that bulge!?!?!)



Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
User currently offline777MechSys From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 350 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4942 times:
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Quoting Legoguy (Reply 22):
the bulge at the bottom (whats the name of that bulge!?!?!)

Are you talking about the fairings? Painted white (on current LCF) and blends the wing into the body.


User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3313 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4874 times:

Quoting 777MechSys (Reply 23):
Are you talking about the fairings? Painted white (on current LCF) and blends the wing into the body.

Yup thats them. I was thinking the fuselage was widened around the fairings aswell thus reducing the wing area, but not the case.



Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
25 Sjot : Winglets clipped from converted 747 The Seattle Times The converted 747 air freighter with a bulging upper fuselage parked at Boeing Field has had its
26 JRadier : right..... A standard 744 wing has winglets...
27 RootsAir : Dream lifter is sooo ugly. Long live the Beluga !
28 Post contains images Beech19 : Oh good point... but a 744D doesn't. Yeah... the beluga is one sexy plane. (you can note my sarcasm...)
29 Post contains images JRadier : that's not what they said did they
30 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : You must need glasses, my friend.
31 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Here we may have the plain translation of the above "corporatese" ..... http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...CF+tests+slip+behind+schedule.html Quo
32 N328KF : None of the outsize aircraft (A300-600ST, 747-400 LCF, and the Guppys) are particularly attractive, IMHO. The C-5 and An-124/An-225 are far more eleg
33 Aeroguy : Good find there DEVILFISH. Right on the money too. You guys can stop worrying about the LCF aerodynamic performance, the winglet decision is being dr
34 Post contains images Aeroman444 : Oh, there is a reason why they are not there.
35 LeanOfPeak : Winglets result in a decrease in induced drag (Drag due to a finite wing producing lift) and an increase in parasite (Form) drag. The idea is that usu
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