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TAM To Fly GRU-MXP Effective March 30 With A332  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6337 times:
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TAM just confirmed today they will begin services between Sao Paulo (GRU) and Milan (MXP) effective March 30th 2007.

Flights will be operated with a single Airbus A330-200 which means they will keep a daily-light flight on MXP-GRU route.

Time-table will be:

JJ8060 GRU 1900 MXP 1140
JJ8061 MXP 1330 GRU 2045

Its also confirmed that Tam will need to rotate one plane with another route (probably the GRU-GIG-CDG service as LHR and CDG (the late night service) keep first class service while MXP will offer only C+Y.

Flights will be probably available in TAM reservation system later on Dec 11 and probably will be announced by the airline during the "TAM Day" tomorrow on NYSE.

Felipe


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6315 times:

Congrats to TAM, it seems as though they are really starting to fill in the Brazilian void after Varig...

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6256 times:

Congratulations toTAM!

What could be the next long haul destination of TAM? MAD, AMS, ZHR?

Rgs,


User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6244 times:

Felipe,

Nice to talk with you again buddy.

Are there any airlines currently flying an MXP-GRU/GIG route? Altalia maybe? Or any other airline? Will this be filling in a huge void and bringing travel back to Brasil threw Italy? Or is this not on the higher end of profitable routes?

Thanks Felipe!

Kyle



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6239 times:

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 3):
Are there any airlines currently flying an MXP-GRU/GIG route? Altalia maybe?

AZ flies MXP-GRU daily B772 red-eye. GRU is one of AZ's most profitable international destinations.

The market Italy-Brazil is huge, in business, and tourism. Brazil also has one of the biggest Italian populations in the world, more than 20 million Italian descendent live in Brazil, especially in the Sao Paulo area.

There are also about 11 weekly charter flights from Italy to Northeast Brazil, details are here: http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...d=3108206&s=brazil+italy#ID3108206

Rgs,


User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4):
The market Italy-Brazil is huge, in business, and tourism. Brazil also has one of the biggest Italian populations in the world, more than 20 million Italian descendent live in Brazil, especially in the Sao Paulo area.

Yes I knew this as I took a geography class studing this. And of course living in Brasil at selected times. But thank you Hardiwv!

Thank you for the information as well on the charterd flights. So then TAM is going to be making out big time in this market!

Any word on where the MD-11s will be going for TAM? Any luck that FCO could be one of these?



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineAirblue From San Marino, joined May 2001, 1825 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6214 times:

That means the bilateral Italy-Brazil is finally changed and AP could start the FCO-GIG-GRU route.

User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6165 times:

Quoting Airblue (Reply 6):
That means the bilateral Italy-Brazil is finally changed and AP could start the FCO-GIG-GRU route.

Codesharing with RG would be the better solution, being Air One a Lufthansa Partner and Varig a Star Alliance member.


User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6089 times:

The first 02 MD11 will operate the 3rd flight to CDG. The 3rd MD11 will join the fleet in march and will operate JJ8094/JJ8091 GRU/MIA/GRU and than the A332 doing this route will operate GRU/MXP.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6033 times:
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Quoting Airblue (Reply 6):
That means the bilateral Italy-Brazil is finally changed and AP could start the FCO-GIG-GRU route.

In fact the bilateral already allows 14 weekly flights. The reason for another improvement was that ANAC approved not only Tam but also BRA to run 7 weekly flights each.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 3):
Nice to talk with you again buddy.

Nice to talk to you also! Now i'm the cold NYC (19F today!).

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 3):
Are there any airlines currently flying an MXP-GRU/GIG route? Altalia maybe? Or any other airline? Will this be filling in a huge void and bringing travel back to Brasil threw Italy? Or is this not on the higher end of profitable routes?

BRA is flying GIG-MXP weekly service, to become 2x weekly next month. Their strategy is to run more flights with stops at Northeast (probably will be 2x GIG-MXP and 5x GIG-REC/SSA-MXP). The big problem on Brazil-Italy market IMO is that Italy (MXP) never was considered as a Hub like CDG or MAD to allow connections, this IMO reduces the power of the routes out of Italy.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4):
AZ flies MXP-GRU daily B772 red-eye. GRU is one of AZ's most profitable international destinations.

You're right, but probably will be hurt with JJ new service and the future RG return. Too much IMO for this market.

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 8):
The first 02 MD11 will operate the 3rd flight to CDG. The 3rd MD11 will join the fleet in march and will operate JJ8094/JJ8091 GRU/MIA/GRU and than the A332 doing this route will operate GRU/MXP.

I'm now at NYC and need to pay you a lunch ! Let me know when you will be visiting New York !

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5994 times:

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 8):
The first 02 MD11 will operate the 3rd flight to CDG. The 3rd MD11 will join the fleet in march and will operate JJ8094/JJ8091 GRU/MIA/GRU and than the A332 doing this route will operate GRU/MXP.

Does JJ have the option of purchasing these aircraft as well? Say that they see a jump in demand in certain markets and can not wait for other planes to be built, can they purchase these or extend the lease?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
future RG return.

To me, this makes no sense. Why saturate a market? IMO I think RG needs to try to tap into the Japaniese market and Middle East. .



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5942 times:
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Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 10):
Does AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ have the option of purchasing these aircraft as well? Say that they see a jump in demand in certain markets and can not wait for other planes to be built, can they purchase these or extend the lease?

No QXatFAT, these aircrafts need to be returned to Boeing and them will deliver them to Aeroflot for cargo conversion. The 3 M11 will be replaced by 4 777-300ER frames.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 10):
To me, this makes no sense. Why saturate a market? IMO I think RG needs to try to tap into the Japaniese market and Middle East. .

RG has no expertise on middle east. Concerning to Japan, due to the visa requirements nowadays here in US, this route become unprofitable and faces severe competition from AF, AC, BA, LH, AA, UA, and nowadays AM also. IMO RG first need to resume key markets like LHR, MIA and MAD and also improve FRA service (they could run 2x daily). But who knows...

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5927 times:

No way to purchase these MD11...they are coming just as part of the deal with Boeing for the 04 + 04 B773ER for 2008. Really heavy and expensive aircraft.

Felipe, Monday I will be travelling to CDG and will be there until 14th and than I will go to LHR and will be there until 20th. Seems this year I have no chance to be in NYC.

My next trip to JFK will be FEB07 and I will adv for sure!

Richard


User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5907 times:

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 12):
No way to purchase these MD11...they are coming just as part of the deal with Boeing for the 04 + 04 B773ER for 2008. Really heavy and expensive aircraft.

Yes I know that these are part of the deal. I did not know if they were promised to someone else after that as well though.

Any information on JJ if they are looking at making a bigger mixed fleet with Boeing T7s and 767s and Airbus A330s and A350s? Or was this order of the T7s just because the A350 is to far away from now?



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5872 times:

Hi Felipe, good to hear you arrived well in NY, immediately starting to provide such nice information. JJ's longhaul flight numbers are getting quite low  Wink

What I still don't get is, why do they run MXP with a single plane and not JJ8098/8099? Both to MIA and JFK they have a daylight and a night flight, providing the opportunity to passengers to choose between two flight times. Why not doing this on CDG-GRU as well, running JJ8099 exactly in the schedule as they announced for MXP-GRU now? Then they would have the aircraft to run JJ8060/8061 in the same schedule as JJ8096/8097, allowing to use the same departure/arrival banks at GRU and passengers from CDG to Brazil would have the option to choose between three differently scheduled flights. As most US flights leave around the same time, there should also be enough AF flights that could feed into the daylight flight at CDG.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
What could be the next long haul destination of TAM? MAD, AMS, ZHR?

I am still hoping for a red-eye out of AMS, but my personal guess goes for FRA  Yeah sure (BTW: arriving from LHR tonight, I noticed an MD11 from VarigLOG at AMS. Is it still a regular visitor?)

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 8):
The first 02 MD11 will operate the 3rd flight to CDG

Do you already know what the seat configuration will be? Will they be equipped with JJ's Business Class seat?

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 13):
Any information on JJ if they are looking at making a bigger mixed fleet with Boeing T7s and 767s and Airbus A330s and A350s? Or was this order of the T7s just because the A350 is to far away from now?

TAM ordered the first version of the A350, i.e. smaller one's than the A350XWB, about the same size as the A332. The plan was to use them as a replacement for the older A332 as well as for a conservative fleet growth. With RG disappearing almost completely from the longhaul sector during the last 12 months, many opportunities arised for TAM. Especially TAM is currently able to establish themselves as the new "flag-carrier" of Brazil. Being recognized as this, enables TAM to grow faster, even if RG will open up some routes again. That's why they ordered more 6 A332 this year, being delivered over the next three years. The demand on JJ's key routes, especially to CDG and MIA, however also justifies the usage of bigger aircraft than the comparable small A332, but TAM currently does not have something for this. The A350XWB will earliest be available in 2012 which will be too late for TAM, which needs the aircraft now (therefore you are right, the A350XWB is too far away right now). Thus, TAM evaluated the A346 and the 773ER.

The 773ER probably won as Boeing was more than happy convincing an all-Airbus operator of their own planes, i.e. providing a good deal compared to Airbus which might have been too sure about this deal. In addition Boeing was able to deliver an on-the-spot solution with the 3 MD11s until the 773ER can be delivered (Of course, the 773ER was announced as the better aircraft, but that is just a matter of the price you have to pay for it...)

So, what will be the future of TAM's fleet? From 2008-2012 they will fly a mixture of 773ER as big long-haul aircraft, A332 as small long-haul aircraft and A32X for regional flights. I don't believe anything else will make it into the fleet. The only question is, what will happen to the A350 order? The size of the new A350XWB is comparable to the 773ER, whereas TAM ordered a smaller, i.e. different aircraft which will never be build. Therefore, I can imagine the following two scenarios:
1. TAM cancels the order (they might even be able to claim compensations as Airbus is not able to deliver what they bought) and buys the 787 as a replacement for the A332s.
2. If the A350XWB turns out to be a better aircraft than the 773ER, TAM makes a Singapore-Airlines like deal with Airbus, selling them the 773ER and buying even more A350XWB, replacing both the old A332s and the new 773ERs.

However, I do not expect some decisions in one of these directions in the next two years. There is no need to hurry for JJ.


User currently offlineHagic From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5829 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Flights will be operated with a single Airbus A330-200 which means they will keep a daily-light flight on MXP-GRU route.

Time-table will be:

JJ8060 GRU 1900 MXP 1140
JJ8061 MXP 1330 GRU 2045

If the flight is to be operated with a single A/C, how will they be able to leave GRU at 19:00 if the plane returns from MXP at 20:45 ?



There's only one freedom of the press: That of the survivors - (G. Arciniegas)
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5821 times:
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Quoting Hagic (Reply 15):
If the flight is to be operated with a single A/C, how will they be able to leave GRU at 19:00 if the plane returns from MXP at 20:45 ?

This is why i comment they will rotate this plane with another route. They could not run MXP alone. Probably CDG flights will rotate planes with MXP as Tam use to keep one plane idle all the day at GRU.

Quoting Jog (Reply 14):
Hi Felipe, good to hear you arrived well in NY, immediately starting to provide such nice information. JJ's longhaul flight numbers are getting quite low

Thanks my friend. And today they announce a new daily service GRU-EZE (JJ8018/JJ8019). Seems that very shortly they will need to enter on JJ81XX (now used on Code-shares)

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5719 times:

There will always be a A332 during the day at GRU and this acft could assume the MXP flight.

User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5709 times:

Are they codesharing with any airline on this route?

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5639 times:
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Quoting Runway23 (Reply 18):
Are they codesharing with any airline on this route?

I doubt Runway, their focus is on O&D at Milan. Connections they provide at CDG with AF (and this is why they will fly CDG 3x daily).

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5633 times:

Why no Germany flights ? Varig has 2 daily flights ...

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5608 times:
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Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 20):
Why no Germany flights ? Varig has 2 daily flights ...

Can you clarify your question ? You mean why Tam doesn't fly to Germany ?

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5551 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
I doubt Runway, their focus is on O&D at Milan. Connections they provide at CDG with AF (and this is why they will fly CDG 3x daily).

Felipe

IMO Code-share with AZ might be just a matter of Time!!! That's if AZ recovers, which I think it will.

TAM simply can't afford to route all of their connecting passengers through CDG. In order to increase presence in Europe, they'll need other hubs such as AMS, MXP, LHR and maybe even FRA.

Out of those, MXP would be the best one in terms of new destinations?? FRA, AMS and LHR would pretty much compete with the same destinations offered though CDG!


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5499 times:
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I think TAM should talk to Air Canada about getting some of its A330-300. This would be good for TAM to increase capacitiy over their A332. BY doing this TAM nine A333's good for 8-10 hour flights to the USA and Europe. Maybe leasing some Cathay Pacific A340'd next year when they get 773ER's is another interim solution.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5455 times:
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Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 23):
I think TAM should talk to Air Canada about getting some of its A330-300. This would be good for TAM to increase capacitiy over their A332. BY doing this TAM nine A333's good for 8-10 hour flights to the USA and Europe. Maybe leasing some Cathay Pacific A340'd next year when they get 773ER's is another interim solution.

AC is buying a 10% share on Varig and i believe they will try to do everything to help Varig, due to this i can't see AC helping Tam.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 22):
IMO Code-share with AZ might be just a matter of Time!!! That's if AZ recovers, which I think it will.

TAM simply can't afford to route all of their connecting passengers through CDG. In order to increase presence in Europe, they'll need other hubs such as AMS, MXP, LHR and maybe even FRA.

Remember that Italy is shared between FCO and MXP so it's not so strong as a hub as CDG. I agree that FRA, AMS and LHR could help them, but they can focus only on O&D for those markets as no one could run 3 daily flights as CDG.
I really don't expect a code-share with AZ.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
25 Jog : TAM was flying to Germany for a few months around 2001. However, they faced heavy competition from RG and LH which decreased their prices significant
26 Hardiwv : Lipe: tks for the news. The route also had a leg to ZRH. In my opinion if TAM had continued in the route it would now be a profitable operation. Consi
27 LipeGIG : AC is under firm negotiations to buy a 10% share on new-RG from VarigLog. They will be a like of venture investor. Tam doesn't need partners at LHR a
28 Werkur767 : LipeGIG, What about the flights to LHR? TAM previously announced flights to London-Heatrow. The subject did not go forward and the aviation press not
29 Hardiwv : Tks for the interesting information. Recently RG resumed flights to a number of domestic destinations, including FLN. TAM has a number of partners in
30 Humberside : At LHR do they have any agreement with bmi for UK domestic connections?
31 Jog : In my opinion, even starting it now and doing a bit of marketing, it could be made into a very profitable operation with the huge network JJ is now a
32 LipeGIG : I don't think so Jog. Germany is a hard market and even Tam keeping a huge network, be in mind that the huge investment is from German in Brazil whic
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