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KLM To YYC & PDX?  
User currently offlineDYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6521 times:

Wondering if any KLM A.netters have heard some recent talk about KLM potentially starting flights into YYC and PDX in 2008?. KLm is looking at YYC with 747-combi 4 / wk starting sometime 2008?
Is this true??


AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVio From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6524 times:

If that was true, it would be amazing... but a 747 YYC to AMS? ... Is there enough demand for that ? ??


Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
User currently offlineThepilot From Canada, joined Jan 2010, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6507 times:

I am skeptical. I don't see the demand between PDX and AMS. YYC maybe, it is more likely than PDX. With SFO and YVR so close, it seems unlikely. Plus, SEA already has service to AMS with NW.

My two cents.



From YVR
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6495 times:

Quoting Vio (Reply 1):
If that was true, it would be amazing... but a 747 YYC to AMS? ... Is there enough demand for that ? ??

As he mentioned, it would be a 747 Combi flying the route, which would be more suited for routes with high cargo capacity and reduced passenger demand. If you look at KL's fleet, the bulk of their 747s are Combis, so such routes would be dependent on cargo demand in order for them to stay 74Ms.


User currently offlineMEL From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1100 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6413 times:

I'm pretty sure KLM used to run 743s into Calgary in the 1980s, but still, I doubt they would be back with a 74E. I could see a 763 or 332 4x weekly service, however.


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User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6409 times:

PDX may be a possibility since KLM has extensive cooperation with Alaska and Horizon.

User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1922 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6395 times:

that would be SWEEET!


They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlineDYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6370 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
As he mentioned, it would be a 747 Combi flying the route, which would be more suited for routes with high cargo capacity and reduced passenger demand. If you look at KL's fleet, the bulk of their 747s are Combis, so such routes would be dependent on cargo demand in order for them to stay 74Ms.

There is a lot of oil field equipment out of YYC and at the moment Cargolux has an almost monopoly on maindeck cargo. I think this is what KLM would be targeting.



AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6328 times:

Quoting DYK (Reply 7):
There is a lot of oil field equipment out of YYC and at the moment Cargolux has an almost monopoly on maindeck cargo. I think this is what KLM would be targeting.

Good point. Perhaps there may also be a chance that KLM Cargo could start service as well, given the cargo that needs to be hauled.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4516 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6281 times:

Quoting MEL (Reply 4):
I could see a 763 or 332 4x weekly service, however.

But given that the B763ER is about to be withdrawn from the KLM fleet - last flight in the beginning of March - that is unlikely to happen, although the A332 would be a possibility, as would the MD11, for that matter.


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6262 times:

KL to PDX would actually create an interesting piece of trivia that then every city NW serves NRT would also have service to AMS.

Okay, HNL would be the exception, but :P

Steve


User currently offlineJayce From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6246 times:

I remember when KL used to fly AMS-YYC-YVR as well as AMS-YVR and AMS-YYC, I believe that ended sometime in the early to mid 90's. Given Calgary's strong economy, I could see KL returning, though my guess would be with the A330.

As for PDX, it was mentioned that NW has strong ties with AS and QX so that would make sense. Though there aren't too many destinations that QX or AS serve from PDX that they don't serve from SEA or SFO.



"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
User currently offlineDYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6206 times:

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 2):
I am skeptical. I don't see the demand between PDX and AMS. YYC maybe, it is more likely than PDX. With SFO and YVR so close, it seems unlikely. Plus, SEA already has service to AMS with NW.

It may be possible KLM will operate AMS-YYC-PDX vv. Both cities would be considered good cargo destinations and between the two I am sure they could fill a 74E with passengers?



AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
User currently offlineBO__einG From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2771 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6181 times:

The last KLM flight was something like October 20th 1996 when they brought in their 744 Combis.
It has been 10 years now, Get that flying dutchman flying back into Cowtown!
Heck they are still flying around one of their Jumbos (BFC) which has Calgary's name on it.

My prediction is also the Combi, 200 something pax plus some nice cargo like flowers and meat, there are good potential there.
But anytime soon, Martinair is doing well with its seasonal frequencies.



Chance favors the prepared mind.
User currently offlineN174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6163 times:

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 2):
I am skeptical. I don't see the demand between PDX and AMS. YYC maybe, it is more likely than PDX. With SFO and YVR so close, it seems unlikely. Plus, SEA already has service to AMS with NW.



Quoting DYK (Reply 12):
It may be possible KLM will operate AMS-YYC-PDX vv. Both cities would be considered good cargo destinations and between the two I am sure they could fill a 74E with passengers?

I'm also skeptical about KLM and PDX, albeit for different reasons. LH has served FRA-PDX for the last 4 years (well, 4 years in March '07) and with cargo alone, the route is profitable. That in itself (profits) signals to competitors that PDX-Europe can be profitable. But for two carriers? That's where my skepticism comes into play. KLM/NW is looking to expand its presence in PDX, and by offering a rival flight to Europe, even with a 763/777 or an A330 (NW metal), could give LH (and Star Alliance) a run for the money in PDX. Would a 747 combi that comes in/goes back to YYZ make sense? I also don't think so, but I've been wrong in the past.

It's a long shot, but not outside the realm of possibility. If the rumor persists, look for LH to upgrade the FRA-PDX flights to daily year-round, and probably from an A343 to an A346. Time will tell.


User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4638 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6163 times:

I think if this were to happen it would be with Combis. There is quite a bit of cargo going out of YYC. Hell I hammer the front hold of AC's A330 flights to FRA and LHR full of cargo pretty much every day. Not to mention Cargolux, Asian Cargo and lately there's been a schwack of Russian heavy lift showing up, and the odd 742F from Polar.

That would be sweet if it did happen though Big grin

Kris



Word
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6112 times:

Around a year ago, there were quite some rumours about NW starting PDX-AMS, but never materialized. For that reason, it's not a new rumour.  Wink

Quoting N174UA (Reply 14):
Would a 747 combi that comes in/goes back to YYZ make sense? I also don't think so, but I've been wrong in the past.

I don't think so either, as AF-KL have stated (and acted accordingly) that they want to minimize the number of tag-ons on their flights. And especially for the PDX-market: why would it make sense to fly PDX-YYZ-AMS instead of PDX-MSP-AMS?


User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3509 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6084 times:

Outside possibility for YYC...not so much for PDX with services to SEA and YVR nearby and PDX-Europe services well-served by LH.


Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5974 times:

Hypothetical question. If the routing were AMS-YYC-PDX, would KL/NW be allowed to sell tickets for the YYC-PDX portion of the flight? As far as I can tell no one has non-stops between the two cities. Perhaps that market itself would be somewhat lucrative?

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6533 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5934 times:

Quoting N174UA (Reply 14):
LH has served FRA-PDX for the last 4 years (well, 4 years in March '07) and with cargo alone, the route is profitable

I seriously doubt that cargo alone makes this route profitable. Do you have a source for this info.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5917 times:

On PDX given that it would be a joint NWA / KLM flight (just like all transatalntic flights. I think we are talking 2 markets:

1. PDX area to Europe / Middle East / Africa
2. Europe Europe / Middle East / Africa to Area PHX

The market AMS-PDX-AMS can be neglected (a dozen seats a day?)

NWA would have 100% sales responsibility in the US, KLM/AFI in Europe..


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5910 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
The market AMS-PDX-AMS can be neglected (a dozen seats a day?)

I believe Nike has it's European operations in Amsterdam so I imagine that all twelve would be business class.


User currently offlineVirginia From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5903 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 21):

I believe Nike has it's European operations in Amsterdam so I imagine that all twelve would be business class.[/quote]


That's correct and they have a huge contract with LH so also has Adidas.
They work with BCD Travel alot.

Virginia


User currently offlineN174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 19):
I seriously doubt that cargo alone makes this route profitable. Do you have a source for this info.

Nothing specific, however the flight was actively pursued by the likes of Nike, Adidas, Freightliner, and other PDX-area businesses with ties to Germany. For the first year, blocks of (presumably) discounted tickets were sold for employees of those companies to use that flight. I believe the Port releases cargo data that is brought through the airport, and the LH flight accounts for a good portion of those movements, besides the cargo operators.

Cargo is much more profitable of course that people, and since passenger revenue is made in the front of the airplane, it's worth nothing that the A343 used on the route does not have a first class section, and I'd be interested to see the loads in business class.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6533 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

I would doubt that there is a passenger route in the world (none combi aircraft) that is profitable just on the cargo alone. People on this forum like to say that, but no one can give numbers to prove it. Until they can, it ain't so.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 23):
Nothing specific, however the flight was actively pursued by the likes of Nike, Adidas, Freightliner, and other PDX-area businesses with ties to Germany. For the first year, blocks of (presumably) discounted tickets were sold for employees of those companies to use that flight. I believe the Port releases cargo data that is brought through the airport, and the LH flight accounts for a good portion of those movements, besides the cargo operators.

Cargo is much more profitable of course that people, and since passenger revenue is made in the front of the airplane, it's worth nothing that the A343 used on the route does not have a first class section, and I'd be interested to see the loads in business class.


25 N174UA : Along those lines, the only way to provide actual data to prove such a route exists would require the sharing of highly confidential company data, an
26 Keesje : There are lots of routes profittable without any significant cargo.. IMO now that the -8i also sold perhaps things will work out here on a.net regard
27 Bobnwa : Right, but not the other way around is why I am saying.
28 Bobnwa : Right, but not the other way around is why I am saying.
29 AirbusfanYYZ : AMS-YYZ is operated with the full-pax KL 744s PH-BFA/B/G/L/N and with B772s in the Winter. Summer 2007 sees an increase to YYZ with the daily 744 plu
30 Sllevin : You could be right, but I'd put my money on KL with the NW and AS ties to be the winner over the long haul. Steve
31 ACDC8 : The last KLM flights into YYC were in the summer of 1995. They were operated as a stop over on the YVR-AMS or AMS-YVR legs. They were operated with th
32 Yegmaster : Hmm, not exactly. My wife and I flew KLM (MD11) in the spring of 1996, from YYC to AMS and back. Cheers
33 Cschleic : For PDX, it would seem doubtful. When the Port of Portland secured LH service from Frankfurt, plus NW to Tokyo and Mexicana to Mexico, Bill Wyatt the
34 ACDC8 : They may have revived the YYC service for a short period of time, since the YVR service was droped to 3x up to 4x weekly during 1996, the available a
35 Wolsingerjet : MP flys this route and does well with a 2x weekly 763 over a AMS-YEG-YYC route and vise versa on certain days.Would not surprise me to see this route
36 Lijnden : Maybe KLM will fly their old B767-300 (PH-BZO) that they sold to PrivatAir on the route? Business flight with a larger than normal cargo capacity.
37 LJ : Well, Amsterdam - Kilimanjaro - Dar es Salaam - Amsterdam (flown 6 times weekly with a MD11 year round) is one. KLM even mentioned this once as the r
38 HB-IWC : Just a couple of small mistakes here: there is one more B744 full pax, PH-BFH, and KLM is currently still running the B744s to YYZ. The route will re
39 Bobnwa : I'm sure the cargo revenue on this route is significant, but I would have to be shown proof that it is protitable by itself. Or show the article wher
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