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AA Amends DFW-PEK Application  
User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 970 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10055 times:

American Airlines today asked the Department of Transportation (DOT) to approve a modification of its application to serve the Dallas/Fort Worth- Beijing, China, market. AA is applying to operate the U.S. to China segment as a through flight from Dallas/Fort Worth to Chicago and then Beijing. The return flight will be operated nonstop from Beijing.

AA will fly nonstop DFW-PEK as soon as it is possible to do so.

113 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePropClear From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 6 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10028 times:

Why didn't they just pull their application altogether?!?!

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10005 times:

AA's out of the running. I'm sure the APA is happy now.

My odds are now on CO.


User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10001 times:

Hurry up DOT!!!! Get with it and let us all in on the route awarding, already!!!!
Jeez!!!



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineJayDavis From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9972 times:

For pilots being some of the brightest and sharpest minds in the business, when they join a union, they become some of the dumbest and pig-headedness group of people in the world !!

They just bargained themselves out of a new route.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9926 times:

this is a glimpse into what AA has to look forward to for the next 4 years until everyone else's labor contracts expire.

User currently offlineGeniusjacky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9912 times:

Why do they have to go through ORD now? I doesn't seem pilots would be happier that way.

User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9885 times:

It does seem like AA is shooting themselves with this amendment. You would think this type of amendment, so late in the program would hurt, rather than, help their case.


You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9832 times:

Everyone take a picture; this is what shooting yourself in the foot looks like.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4863 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9818 times:
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Here's the official press release from AA:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061208/daf015.html?.v=101

The last sentence of the press release is already acknowledging defeat:

".....If DOT does not award the route to American with the authority to operate on a through-service basis, American will resubmit an application for China authority in the next DOT proceeding."


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9785 times:

A stopover in Chicago on the outbound flight, but nonstop on the return.......dont think thats going to work out to well in real life.

User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9750 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
A stopover in Chicago on the outbound flight, but nonstop on the return.......dont think thats going to work out to well in real life.

So much for a non-stop. That won't sit well with DFW business people at all



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2332 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9737 times:

Another reason why I can't stand some Pilots. They bitch about everything, and this time they have gone too far. One more route lost to CO, as if they did not fly to enough places already.

Let the Pilots keep flying CUN turns out of DFW for the rest of their lives.  sarcastic 



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9693 times:

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 12):
One more route lost to CO, as if they did not fly to enough places already.

It's not that we fly to enough places, it is that we will serve our intended market (EWR-PVG) non-stop. AA has the ability to expand like anyone does. It apparently has come down to an internal problem within AA that might cost them a potential route.



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineStyle From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9625 times:

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 12):
One more route lost to CO, as if they did not fly to enough places already

Thats an unfair statement especially coming from someone who is from AA. Last I checked AA had the largest market share, no CO.

Besides, lets not forget about the UA application and the MASSIVE political backing it had. I still think it will be a photo finish. It should go to CO though, they present the best case.


User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7492 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9592 times:

Adios AA. Its too bad, I was really pulling for them. They literally have no chance now.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20342 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9539 times:

I would gather this news will also make it more difficult for both AA and DL in '08. If AA doesn't win this round, they'll be up against DL's ATL application the next time, a scenario they've just handed themselves.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCoewraatysaz From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9500 times:

Do we still have any idea when the DOT will give a response?


Continental Airlines: Trabajar con empe�?��?�±o, Volar con Pasi�?��?�³n
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9276 times:

Quoting Coewraatysaz (Reply 17):
Do we still have any idea when the DOT will give a response?

Most likely very near the end of the month, give or take.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9232 times:

Quoting Coewraatysaz (Reply 17):
Do we still have any idea when the DOT will give a response?



Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 18):
Most likely very near the end of the month, give or take.

Should be very soon......but for ""politics"" the decision should have been made by now, the airline selected will launch the route in the 2Q 2007 which is only months away.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11405 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9233 times:

A few points:

. First, as pretty much everyone has said, the APA really screwed this one up -- the entire company, and now all the unions, are pissed not only at APA's quite possibly costing AA a huge revenue stream in the form of a new route to a burgeoning and yet capacity-restricted market, and with their ridiculous demands

. Second, AA might have done better to move their application from DFW-PEK to DFW-LAX-PEK rather than DFW-ORD-PEK. At LAX, AA could draw on huge O&D and some strong connections from other major U.S. cities; but alas, I don't know if it would help much as AA has now lost a ton of face with the DoT, as other mentioned

. Finally, what now for the two 777s AA would have allocated to DFW-PEK? Miami-South Africa, anyone?


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9218 times:

AA will still have to stop in west Africa if the pilots won't budge in which case DL has a better advantage at ATL with much greater connectivity. Yes, MIA-XXX-JNB could work but they would not be building from a position of strength. Probably they'll end up in S. America.

DL would gladly take a couple of AA's 777s.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9200 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
A few points:

. First, as pretty much everyone has said, the APA really screwed this one up -- the entire company, and now all the unions, are pissed not only at APA's quite possibly costing AA a huge revenue stream in the form of a new route to a burgeoning and yet capacity-restricted market, and with their ridiculous demands

. Second, AA might have done better to move their application from DFW-PEK to DFW-LAX-PEK rather than DFW-ORD-PEK. At LAX, AA could draw on huge O&D and some strong connections from other major U.S. cities; but alas, I don't know if it would help much as AA has now lost a ton of face with the DoT, as other mentioned

. Finally, what now for the two 777s AA would have allocated to DFW-PEK? Miami-South Africa, anyone?

Interesting and honest analysis......I know that you favor AA and thanks for being so realistic in your comments. It does seem that AA has effectively taken themselves out of the competition for the route authority.

Your DFW-LAX-PEK alternative could have kept AA in the ballgame, in my humble opinion; the DFW-ORD-PEK/PEK-DFW routing just doesnt make sense from so many point of views.

Does AA have the guts to open up the long discussed South Africa route?

Or, with AA's surprising success on its routes to NRT, shouldnt MIA-NRT be a possibility (if slots could be obtained)?


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9158 times:

AA couldn't find slots for HNLNRT so it's not likely they would find them for MIANRT.

Remember the problem is APA won't fly an AA airplane for 15 hours, easily what it would take to fly MIANRT.

for all practical purposes, AA's 777s right now are going to be flying to S. America or Europe or on routes that make a stop en route to Asia unless its from one of the coasts.


User currently offlineTokyoNarita From Palau, joined Aug 2003, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9158 times:

Quote:
Or, with AA's surprising success on its routes to NRT, shouldnt MIA-NRT be a possibility (if slots could be obtained)?

AA should still have the SJC slot that they recently discontinued. It will be interesting to see what they are going to do with those NRT slots.

TokyoNarita.


25 Jacobin777 : MIA-XXX-JNB (MIA-LOS-JNB or MIA-DKR-JNB)... is a huge market..something which AA should tap.... AA already has a need for more 777's...what are they
26 AADC10 : It looks like AA is going to the route they really wanted in the first place, ORD-PEK. DFW was just a ploy to get support from Texas Republicans. AA's
27 MAH4546 : They no longer have the slots. Miami-South Africa (probably with an intermediate stop) or a second Chicago-India route (both Bombay and Bangalore) ar
28 AA767400 : This I wonder as well. If they can do DEL, What is the problem with PEK? I guess it would be one more ultra long flight for them.
29 Post contains images Laxintl : Agree a LAX stop probably would be more reasonable both ways. It would also be the first US carrier service between LA-China which might have some co
30 Lfutia : Our flight from Delhi to Chicago was a little over 15 hours back in August 2006. Leo
31 Post contains links UALFAson : AA and ALPA worked out a special agreement/exception for the ORD-DEL flights. Depending on whose side you take, ALPA is using this DFW-PEK applicatio
32 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..which means they could have worked on a special agreement/exception for this route..but its probably a mute point now... " target=_blank>http://www
33 MAH4546 : It is pushing it. I don't know the details, but the fact that AA is looking at ORD-BOM and ORD-BLR was leaked into the major newspapers in India last
34 Jacobin777 : Interesting...will try to look for it on the internet..maybe something will come up... I see BOM well before BLR....in fact, I would think BLR would
35 AirportPlan : I agree that DFW was just a political ploy. AA really wanted ORD-PEK in the first place. ORD-PVG is one of AA's most lucurative flights, particulary
36 SLVRBLT : It is just amazing to me the degree of selfishness that this pilot work group exhibits...it seems to know no bounds. They are the highest-paid, yet le
37 777FlyGuy : I recall when I lived in Dallas during the pilot contract negotiations that required presidential intervention. The union is eventually going to kill
38 Adh214 : Everytime I see a situation like this, I come back to my idea for pilot pay. Simply the pilots will be paid xx% of the operating revenue of the airlin
39 Post contains links STT757 : http://www.continental.com/web/en-US...D=EFF203257F1742F9BC079732CA91B9D4
40 Fl450 : Oh that's it blame a pilot. Maybe AMR should have came to the table with a fair offer? How about you blame management. Get real
41 AA767400 : Well STT757, At least there is a Pilot group out there that still knows what is best for their company. I hope CO get's the route because they deserv
42 UALFAson : UA and NW also issued press releases with statements from their major unions saying the unions supported their employer's route request. I don't thin
43 777FlyGuy : Why is it other can carriers operate similar stage routes without a beef from their pilots and not AA? OK, it may not be 100% unions fault, but look
44 WorldTraveler : you honestly have to ask why AA signed a contract that restricted the use of an airplane that is capable of 16 hr flights to begin with. Mgmt shoulder
45 Jacobin777 : If AA was in bankruptcy...the pilots would be flying that route without raising too much of a stink....
46 Post contains images MAH4546 : Yes, but, don't you know, Delta does everything perfectly.
47 Post contains images BigGSFO : I might be naive about all of this, but surely AA would have considered that their current work rules would have prohibited them operating this flight
48 SLVRBLT : the current work rules don't prohibit anything...these are added demands completely unrelated to flying the route. What does having priority to the f
49 Dutchjet : After the fiasco that Delta went through with its pilots and the operation of the 777s just a few short years ago which effectively prohibited DL fro
50 SHUPirate1 : Just out of sheer morbid curiousity, has anybody found the amendment to the application? It isn't showing up in the DOT filings.
51 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Of course they do..C'mon Mark..you know as well as the whole planet that DL can't do any wrong..including expanding very aggressively and internation
52 Mk777 : They could try a one-stop route via Africa (nairobi, dar-es-salaam, JNB or CPT). Lots of pax there for India and vice versa. I am sure a few indians
53 Jacobin777 : I'm not so sure if that would work...however...I think AA will expand to other routes when (if) they get 787's...but thats not for a while..they need
54 Post contains images Mk777 : Aren't these routes untapped by them??
55 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I guess...
56 AJMIA : I think DFW-LAX-PEK-LAX-DFW would have been the best alternative. If they had gone with that they might still have a chance. DFW-ORD-PEK-ORD-DFW migh
57 Post contains images Mk777 : Can't they do DFW-PEK-PVG-DFW?? is it some freedom rights thing that i never seem to get, that will hamper this route??!! this way they can target 2 b
58 Iloveboeing : I agree. It should be nonstop both ways. AA should have applied to go nonstop from ORD to begin with. DFW should never have been in the picture.
59 SHUPirate1 : How about DFW-SEA-PEK? The connections are there (courtesy of Alaska Airlines), and Seattle would, if I am not mistaken, be a brand new China gateway
60 WorldTraveler : I guess we're feeling very inferior, aren't we? Despite a fleet of 777s 6X larger than DL's, AA hasn't taken advantage of its huge fleet to build a c
61 Post contains images A330323X : It'll show up on Monday, along with the NW (and probably other) objections. Submitting information to the DOT on a Friday is a sure way to get it not
62 NikonDFW : The Pilots union had made up their minds the day after AA put in for the route they were going to throw a monkey wrench into it. It boils down to not
63 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Because their previous routes were never that long...especially given their dominance in LHR... It's only when their JFK-NRT and recent ORD-DEL has t
64 Mk777 : I think AA would do well to fly into BKK, HKG, even ICN. Why aren't they looking to fly to australia or do they already fly to SYD, MEL or ADL? Hopefu
65 AJMIA : OK. OK. It is still stupid, but at least I now understand. It is kind of like deciding to set your house on fire because you got into a fight with yo
66 NikonDFW : The pilots are not trying to get priority over nonrevs..They are trying to get First or Business class seat priority over any flight attendants that
67 AJMIA : OK because that is not what I read in the newspaper and online. Thank goodness, because if that happened it would get ugly fast. AJMIA
68 NikonDFW : Your right, it was reported in the local DFW area papers the the pilots wanted priority over everybody..it was taken way out of context. That would b
69 AJMIA : I wonder why NOBODY from management or APA has put anything out about this to clear it up? I can understand that the mass media often gets industry n
70 Jacobin777 : Sure, I've been critical of AA not going to certain places such as HKG, but again, there are many opportunites elsewhere.....and as I mentioned befor
71 Dutchjet : . I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.........and your answer is completely unresponsive to my post which you quoted. I said that after
72 ElmoTheHobo : Bad timing, and they don't have a strong brand in Asia, being a relatively new entrant. Consider that CO offers just about the same number of seats b
73 OA412 : Source??? Airlines do not trim profitable routes especially after just 6 months of operation. It is a safe assumption that if ORD-NGO was operating a
74 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Again, it wasn't a failure..they needed the 777's for other routes... No..not "Lies! All lies!"..but rather DAMN BIG LIES.... I don't have the info o
75 MaverickM11 : That's hard to believe. They needed 777s for other routes shortly after 9/11? If anything they needed 777s to be paper weights for a while. Just abou
76 ElmoTheHobo : Well kind of, remember American retired its MD-11s shortly after 9-11 (On 30 November IIRC), so a couple 767s and 777s were needed to replace some of
77 Post contains images Jacobin777 : The 777's had to be put to routes ASAP and its not as if AA can say.."ok..we're ending this route tomorrow"... I've already explained I dont have the
78 MaverickM11 : True but that was all long planned for, unlike the massive drop in passenger traffic following 9/11.
79 MAH4546 : LAX-NRT has been profitable, and while it lost money last year, it barely lost money. The flight is a strong performer, especially considering how co
80 LAXdude1023 : The LAX-NRT market is one of the most competitive markets in North America. Given the options with all the other carriers, im amazed American keeps t
81 Post contains images FXramper : AA pilots are sour about their concessions from 2003 and the executive bonuses awarded this year to AMR guys. While they do have a crutch to stand on
82 LAXdude1023 : I would think the advantage goes to CO not UA. CO only has one frequency to China, while UA has 2 from ORD and 2 from SFO.
83 MAH4546 : Two reasons they do well is that American is a favourite carrier among the "Hollywood crowd" and has strong premium traffic loads out of LAX. In addi
84 UAL777UK : Game over for AA on this route decision. IMHO its down to CO and UA. I would like to see UA get it but somehow i think it will go to CO.
85 Post contains images FXramper : No way. AA NW and UA already fly to Shanghai. More government officials are behind the UA application to link the two capitals. CO through CLE no les
86 LAXdude1023 : Any hard evidence of that? CO's application links NYC nonstop with Shanghai. EWR has a hub to work with as well for easy connections on the east coas
87 B737900er : They don't go through CLE. The flight is just a tag on.
88 MAH4546 : While I think CO will get it, CO does not have it in the bags. United has a very good chance of winning this. The political power of being able to li
89 B737900er : That political power, and the DOT displeasure with CO is the reason UA will most likely get the route True, but how many people can you count on from
90 LAXdude1023 : What displeasure is that?
91 B737900er : Open Skies, and Foregin onwership
92 OA412 : Umm, no! The CO application is for CLE-EWR-PVG service not EWR-CLE-PVG service. Which MU is only offering 4 times/week vs. CO's desire to serve the r
93 Post contains links A330323X : If anyone hasn't found it yet: AA's motion to amend its application NW's motion to dismiss AA's application DOT's notice of shortened answer period A
94 MAH4546 : DOT can, and likely will. The fact that MU flies JFK-PVG hurts CO's application. It doesn't help at all, even though MU is only 4x weekly. CO has a g
95 Aaway : I believe the discontinued SJC-NRT, as well as JL's discontinued LAX-KIX, LAS-NRT, and frequency reduction of LAX-NRT have been beneficial to the per
96 WorldTraveler : and AA pulled the routes. You can spin it however you want but AA pulled out anyway. Get over your grudge from the spring. You haven't posted anythin
97 ElmoTheHobo : True, but the retirements were moved forward considerably. Originially the MD-11s were supposed to run into mid 2002, so only 6 months or so ahead, b
98 Jacobin777 : Where's the "spin" as you so-called put it? I stated it wasn't a decent enough of money maker for them to justify keeping 777's on the route.....and
99 MAH4546 : As of late, definitley. However, AA has done well on LAX-NRT from day one. Your telling him he can't see the truth? Your are the king of "spin" when
100 B2443 : I think 'non-stop' is the keyword here. ORD-HKG typically runs 16 hrs. adding 2+ hr layover at HKG, another 3.5 hr HKG-PEK or 2.5 hr HKG-PVG, your fl
101 OA412 : The other routes I cannot attest to, but Jim Whitehurst himself has stated that Managua was profitable from the start so I'd love to know where you'r
102 SeeTheWorld : No way is it in the bag for CO. UA and CO must be neck-and-neck. Exactly. Both applications are very strong. It could easily go either way. Ah, but t
103 Jacobin777 : I've read this also from various sources.... Actually MAH4546 is highly critical of AA on many topics....
104 Jcavinato : International route applications like this through DOT are quite like professors' tenure applications in a university. Nothing but predetermined biase
105 MAH4546 : It was in the Wall Street Journal a few months ago. Kiev was cited as one of the routes that was off to a weak start. They re-timed the Seattle-JFK f
106 Dutchjet : You direct a remark such as this at me. And then you state: Interesting, maybe I would if you didnt make remarks such as the one highlighted above. A
107 WorldTraveler : The APA has nothing against China... it's the time involved to get there. Yes, I've spent entire topics debating w/ him since he can't possibly say a
108 Post contains images MAH4546 : Right, I never say anything wrong with AA, even though I'm one of the biggest critics on how I am very upset with their conservative growth (or lack
109 Klwright69 : How is this the case? Twice as large as CO's EWR hub? i agree. I never thought AA had a shot. I didn't think the DOT would place a China route in a l
110 OA412 : Interesting! Now that you mention this I do faintly remember something being said about the SEA flight being re-timed in order to better connect w/th
111 SHUPirate1 : No. However, United's PEK-IAD flight is better-timed for connections than Continental's PVG-EWR flight. That proposed PVG-EWR flight has legal same-d
112 Jacobin777 : It's more like entire topics debating with you finding anything wrong with DL... Could have fooled me...if DL said "we are flying JFK/ATL-Antarctica"
113 Aaway : Undoubtedly, nonstop PEK would be preferable. Admittedly I'm thinking outside the box a bit here. I agree with the other posters that AA has effectiv
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