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NWA Seeks To End American's Bid For China Route  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3145 posts, RR: 10
Posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8016 times:

Courtesy: Minneapolis/St. Paul Business Journal

NWA Seeks To End American's Bid For China Route

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincitie.../daily51.html?b=1165208400^1388333

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26170 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7982 times:

Here is the related link to that about AA wanting to insert a Chicago stop on its proposed DFW-China service.
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3137938/



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLfutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7967 times:
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I kind of have to agree with Northwest here. You don't see any other airlines amending their route and I think its too late to amend it. I could see however a flight number being changed. But as for making it a stopover, I don't see that happening.

Leo



Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7945 times:

I don't see why they care.

See, even though the unfortunate fact that AA has to do this severly hurts their application and makes CO or UA the likely winner, they still have a better chance of winning it than Northwest.



a.
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4050 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7929 times:
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AA doesnt stand a chance. All this talk about opening up north Texas to China is now out the window. United already flies the DFW-ORD-PEK route!! (hypothtically speaking). As everyone already knows, now it is down to CO/UA......we'll see how we do..as our relationship with the DOT is not the greatest right now!!


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7915 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 4):
As everyone already knows, now it is down to CO/UA......we'll see how we do..as our relationship with the DOT is not the greatest right now!!

True, but the CO application is the one that, trying not to be biasd here, makes the most sense-linking the two major economic centers of both nations. No other applicant can boast that.


User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7909 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 4):
As everyone already knows, now it is down to CO/UA......we'll see how we do..as our relationship with the DOT is not the greatest right now!!

The irony here might be that no matter whether it is UA or CO that is awarded the route; if the two end up dancing in a merger, the route could ultimately be part of the proverbial "spoils" the two share in a completed merger.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7879 times:

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 6):
The irony here might be that no matter whether it is UA or CO that is awarded the route; if the two end up dancing in a merger, the route could ultimately be part of the proverbial "spoils" the two share in a completed merger.

Bite your tongue! I don't want anything to do with UA, to be honest.  Smile


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7880 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
See, even though the unfortunate fact that AA has to do this severly hurts their application and makes CO or UA the likely winner, they still have a better chance of winning it than Northwest.

So untrue, I think it will come down to either CO or NW, though just my opinion.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7841 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Bite your tongue! I don't want anything to do with UA, to be honest.

I hear what you are saying....but I'm keeping my eyes wide  eyepopping  ; just in case!


User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4050 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7807 times:
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hey i'm up for it.............much more opportunities to HNL!!!


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7775 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 10):
hey i'm up for it.............much more opportunities to HNL!!!

Bah. I want to stay in CLE.  Big grin


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7612 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
True, but the CO application is the one that, trying not to be biasd here, makes the most sense-linking the two major economic centers of both nations. No other applicant can boast that.

China Eastern flies non-stop between New York City/JFK and Shanghai.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 8):

So untrue, I think it will come down to either CO or NW, though just my opinion.

Not untrue at all. Northwest already has Detroit-Beijing route authority, but they just happen to fly via Tokyo. What on earth makes you think DOT is going to give them the authority again when they already have it?



a.
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7584 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Not untrue at all. Northwest already has Detroit-Beijing route authority, but they just happen to fly via Tokyo. What on earth makes you think DOT is going to give them the authority again when they already have it?

For one there pilots will fly the route!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7541 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
True, but the CO application is the one that, trying not to be biasd here, makes the most sense-linking the two major economic centers of both nations. No other applicant can boast that.

Change CO to UA, and "economic centers" to "capitals" and you'd be talking about a whole different scenario.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9272 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7542 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Not untrue at all. Northwest already has Detroit-Beijing route authority, but they just happen to fly via Tokyo.

RIght, I believe they have a hub over at NRT, right? Is NW the biggest name over in Asia, or is UA? or neither? I know that AA, DL, and CO have rather smaller focuses in Asia, but have other focuses elsewhere...

If you ask me, I think NW and UA have the best chances of getting that Asia route, followed by CO... I say NW, UA, CO, right in a line; very close to one another...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7542 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 13):
For one there pilots will fly the route!

Awesome. They still aren't getting it, and never really had a shot.



a.
User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7539 times:

Dumb move AA.

Regardless of the development however, UA and CO had and have the best applications, either linking the two capitals or economic centers. IAD or EWR deserve a nonstop China slot before DTW, and DFW (even if AA's pilots agree to fly it).


User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7520 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 15):
If you ask me, I think NW and UA have the best chances of getting that Asia route, followed by CO... I say NW, UA, CO, right in a line; very close to one another

Steeler--as has been said before, NW is probably the least likely to get the route because they already have authority to fly it. All they need to do is move their frequency from NRT to DTW; this would not require any government approval. To that end, it's difficult to justify awarding the route to NW when they already have the right to use it, but don't.

I think AA had a good chance and blew it. It's down to CO and UA as others here have already mentioned.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9272 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7485 times:

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 18):
Steeler--as has been said before, NW is probably the least likely to get the route because they already have authority to fly it. All they need to do is move their frequency from NRT to DTW; this would not require any government approval. To that end, it's difficult to justify awarding the route to NW when they already have the right to use it, but don't.

I think AA had a good chance and blew it. It's down to CO and UA as others here have already mentioned.

Oh, right. That was stupid on my part to think that. I did read those posts that pointed that out and completely ignored them. Then I agree with what else was said. Next in line was UA and CO in that order, so, that is what I think then... Maybe DL would be 3rd, followed by AA.



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7479 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 19):
Maybe DL would be 3rd, followed by AA.

Delta is not in the picture.



a.
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7565 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7469 times:

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 18):
All they need to do is move their frequency from NRT to DTW; this would not require any government approval. To that end, it's difficult to justify awarding the route to NW when they already have the right to use it, but don't.

Well UA already has several flight to China as it is. NW has right to PEK not PVG from the US. If they used the few frequency they had then it would take out half the west coast.

NW has one of the better chances, it allows more cities to have connections to Shanghai.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7469 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 19):
Maybe DL would be 3rd, followed by AA

DL did not submit an application and therefore, cannot be awarded the route; however, it's almost certain that DL will apply for service from ATL in the next round. This time around, it's CO or UA.


User currently offlineCroCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7463 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Bite your tongue! I don't want anything to do with UA, to be honest.

Dont flatter yourself, UA folks dont want CO. Kind of mutual. Smile


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7436 times:

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 22):

DL did not submit an application and therefore, cannot be awarded the route; however, it's almost certain that DL will apply for service from ATL in the next round. This time around, it's CO or UA.

It should be noted that the reason Delta did not file was because they could not file. This was only open to airlines that already fly there.



a.
25 Jetjack74 : And you guys are certain of this?
26 Flyguydtw : If I am correct, NW does have the right to fly to both PVG and PEK direct from DTW. I have in fact flown to both cities for layovers on the 744 on NW
27 MasseyBrown : What choice did they have? AA were counting on a pilot agreement and they didn't get it, making them unable to operate the route.
28 Jetjack74 : We had those routes becuase of our alliance with Air China, but since we no longer partner with them, we have to reapply.
29 Zvezda : The right way to award these would be an auction. The carriers should bid money for them. That would ensure the most viable route is the one that is a
30 Bobnwa : Although I am not a betting man, I'm going to go out on a limb and offer to bet you a dollar that NW gets it. You can have AA,UA, and CO. You don't f
31 Dutchjet : Your reasoning is exactly why many think that NW and UA will not get the route, both already have extensive Asian networks that include services to C
32 Bobnwa : I'm willing to let you in on the bet if you like!!!
33 Jacobin777 : IIRC did read that the pilots union in theory backed the route....personally, I think AA is adding ORD to the mix because DFW is not completely econom
34 Jetjack74 : And you're reasoning is why we should get the route. NW is the longest serving airline from the US to Asia and China. We've been doing business in As
35 Supa7E7 : AA's PEK-DFW application was, in its substance, one of the most profoundly ridiculous proposals ever made. They were seriously using places like Texar
36 Dutchjet : The opposite, its time for NW (and UA) to have some competition in Asia from other US carriers...and this is the position that the DOT is likely to t
37 Jetjack74 : Because of the fact it's a guaranteed windfall profit for us and we hardly ever lose money to Japan. We have almost zero restrictions on the levels o
38 Dutchjet : Yep, we will........I do hope that some of the younger a.net members can learn something from us two ""older members""........its OK to agree to disa
39 Zvezda : The union may have backed the route application in theory, but they killed it in practice.
40 STT757 : The DOT does not want a Chinese carrier to have a monopoly on the largest US-China market.
41 Post contains images Jetjack74 : Ah-ha Mr Wolf in sheeps clothing
42 Burnsie28 : Maybe, but the DOT would wan't more American's to be able to get to china easier, NW will offer more passengers and connecting cities then CO. CO's a
43 Dutchjet : And NW did a fine job in Milan......so?? Neither are relevant. And how exactly does that affect CO's application to serve EWR-PVG? NW already serves
44 Bobnwa : What did Northwest do in Milan?
45 Dutchjet : Flew there for a short period......during the aborted KL/AZ deal...and pulled out when the route did not work. Its totally not relevant to this discu
46 Burnsie28 : It is relevent, why would the DOT give the routes to a company that won't make it last, they wont.... I meant to put it for the other reply when the
47 SHUPirate1 : And Guangzhou.
48 STT757 : CO's application offers more convenience to business travelers, NYC is the Center for finance and commerce in the US as Shanghai is to China. Linking
49 LAXdude1023 : Its on par with DTW, ATL, and just about any other city around its size. Geographically, however, DFW's location hurts it. Its a back track for peopl
50 Supa7E7 : Agree. They were both silly. Detroit may be a bit weaker than Dallas. But DTW's feed includes all the big-dog East Coast cities, unlike Dallas. For p
51 Post contains images Jacobin777 : They should have a chat with a couple of my old physical chemisty professors, I could guarantee you they would know the meaning of "theory and practi
52 LAXdude1023 : Ok, I can buy that.
53 Dutchjet : Last time that I looked, EWR was a major hub for CO......bigger than UA's operation at IAD.
54 777gk : Geographically, our EWR hub can effectively connect the same markets as IAD. There is no major difference in connectivity; we are not talking about t
55 Daron4000 : Actually, the name of the game is politics since its the DOT awarding the routes and therefore, United will get the route authority, not CO. Also, co
56 Dutchjet : Under that theory, IAD would be the busiest airport in the USA with the most flights to the most destinations worldwide?
57 Jetjack74 : Our 747-400's never went out weight restricted to PVG or PEK, unless there were some massive headwinds, in effect weight-restricting every other 744'
58 SeeTheWorld : Not true. NW has the right to fly from DTW now, and the only reason they stopped flying it nonstop was that the 744 was too big and they were losing
59 SeeTheWorld : This is true and it's very important. But UA offers a flight from the largest metropolitan area and the largest local market without ANY nonstop serv
60 Daron4000 : No because not every route is governmentally restricted like routes to China are. However, UA also flies from IAD with restricted frequencies to othe
61 MAH4546 : Brazil is not route limited restrictions, only frequency limited. The IAD-GRU flight could just as well be MIA-GRU (like it used to be) or DEN-GRU. N
62 NorthstarBoy : If AA were smart they'd completely leave DFW out of the mix, and apply for Ord-Pek rt. considering how many flights a day AA has between dfw and ord,
63 MAH4546 : It would require them to end SFO-PVG, SFO-PEK, or ORD-PEK.
64 SHUPirate1 : True, however, Dulles, unlike Newark, has a bank of flights to connect from the China flight. In fact, Newark is BY FAR the worst-connected of the fo
65 Post contains images United777atGU : Not to shoot myself in the foot here, because I pull for UA always, but CO has a hub in EWR. However, SHUPirate1 says that: I find that highly intrig
66 A330323X : As I've mentioned before, AA has one significant disadvantage to NW (and the others). AA said they wouldn't accept a partial award of frequencies, wh
67 Supa7E7 : Right, that analysis has been on a.net a few times in other threads. That is why i was saying CO does not have hub flow... they don't, compared to NW
68 United777atGU : When I wrote it, I said to myself that you might have meant that when you said that CO didn't have the feed at EWR (for the ETD for EWR-PVG). I was n
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