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Why Doesn't AA Have 'Economy Plus' On The 777s?  
User currently offlineGh123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

Why doesn't AA have an Economy Plus section on their 777s?

On the 777s they have two Economy cabins - why have they not introduced a 'plus' section on the forward one. In my mind it would work perfectly.

http://www.aa.com/content/aboutUs/ou...nes/boeing777AtlanticSeating.jhtml

There are a lot of very well informed people on this forum who know much about the Airline business and its economics and perhaps some of you could explain this to me.

Thanks!

[Edited 2006-12-09 20:59:05]

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4104 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6212 times:

They used to...it was called More Room Throughout Coach.

I don't know exactly why, but they canceled that and added rows back. Probably to make more money.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7172 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6191 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

We are saving money to buy new a/c.

Signed.

G. Arpey


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11387 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6124 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1):
Probably to make more money.

Actually, it was to lose less.

Customers complained and complained about legroom, so American listened and gave passengers more legroom than any other airline in the United States in every single seat.

Guess what happened? The same people who had complained said to American, "wow, that's great," and then promptly clicked over to Orbitz to buy their $198 round-trip fare on Delta.

Legroom, much like food and inflight entertainment, is something that the vast majority of travelers complain about often and constantly ask to be improved, but when push comes to shove, almost nobody is willing to pay more for it.


User currently offlineGh123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6123 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Legroom, much like food and inflight entertainment, is something that the vast majority of travelers complain about often and constantly ask to be improved, but when push comes to shove, almost nobody is willing to pay more for it.

That's a fair point.


User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6098 times:

I think there needs to be something in between a 200 dollar coach seat with a 2000 dollar first/business seat. UA has all ready seemed to nail that. I would have thought that airlines would have followed them by now.


"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6093 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1):
They used to...it was called More Room Throughout Coach.

I don't know exactly why, but they canceled that and added rows back. Probably to make more money.

MRTC wasn't exactly e+....as it wasn't a different class like UA, BA, VS, NZ, etc. have.

E+ might be interesting...but it doesn't seem that is the direction AA wants to head right now...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6073 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
as it wasn't a different class like UA

E+ in UA is not a different class. E- and E+ is all economy. The fares all cost the same. Once all the E- seats are full, they will put you in E-, or you can upgrade from E- for a fee.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6041 times:

Quoting FXramper (Reply 2):
We are saving money to buy new a/c.

But if you charge a premium, surely this makes you more money??


User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6032 times:

Quoting FXramper (Reply 2):
We are saving money to buy new a/c.

Signed.

G. Arpey

Nice!

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Guess what happened? The same people who had complained said to American, "wow, that's great," and then promptly clicked over to Orbitz to buy their $198 round-trip fare on Delta.

Peole always talk out of both sides of their mouth.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24717 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6024 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 7):
E+ in UA is not a different class. E- and E+ is all economy. The fares all cost the same

Yes and No.

While the base fare might be the same in theory be the same, for access to the E+ section unless if you are a premium United flyer you'll need to pay for access either via an "upgrade" fee or purchasing an annual pass for E+ access.
Off course you might end up in E+ by default in case of a full flight, however United does actively promote and differentiate the products.
I remember reading someplace that the product was producing $100million in additional incremental revenues for the company.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5986 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 7):
E+ in UA is not a different class. E- and E+ is all economy. The fares all cost the same. Once all the E- seats are full, they will put you in E-, or you can upgrade from E- for a fee.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 10):

Yes and No.

While the base fare might be the same in theory be the same, for access to the E+ section unless if you are a premium United flyer you'll need to pay for access either via an "upgrade" fee or purchasing an annual pass for E+ access.
Off course you might end up in E+ by default in case of a full flight, however United does actively promote and differentiate the products.
I remember reading someplace that the product was producing $100million in additional incremental revenues for the company.

 checkmark ..thanks for explaining it like the way I should have done.. Smile

Regardless..all of the other aforementioned carriers have E+ which is a diffferent class...


AA ended MRTC as Commavia correctly stated...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11387 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5986 times:

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 8):
But if you charge a premium, surely this makes you more money??

Therein lies the problem, though.

AA thought that with MRTC, it could generate a revenue premium over other airlines. That didn't happen. People cheered and applauded that AA was giving them more room, and then they went right back to booking the cheapest ticket regardless of whether it had more room or not.

As long as that is how the public behaves, less-than-MRTC is what they'll get.


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5913 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Legroom, much like food and inflight entertainment, is something that the vast majority of travelers complain about often and constantly ask to be improved, but when push comes to shove, almost nobody is willing to pay more for it.

There are a number of people willing to pay more for the room, but it varies with the flight. $50 to have the space on a 12 hours flight is not the same as $30 to have the room on a 1hr 10 minute flight.

MRTC was great, and I tried to fly AA just for that reason, and I've since stopped when it left... people will pay more for it, just not on every flight.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineJC5280 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 530 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5884 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
but when push comes to shove, almost nobody is willing to pay more for it.

Not true. I do not have the actual numbers, but Economy Plus Upsell, which UA offers its customers at check in, has generated millions in revenue. I know it was several hundred thousand the first few months it was introduced. The figures even bewildered the planners at UA HQ.


User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5858 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 7):
Once all the E- seats are full, they will put you in E-,

EDIT: Once all the E- seats are full, they will put you in E+. Sorry for the typo.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineContinental123 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5831 times:

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
Why doesn't AA have an Economy Plus section on their 777s?

The same reason that CO & DL don't have it...because THEY DONT NEED IT!


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11387 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5794 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 13):
MRTC was great, and I tried to fly AA just for that reason, and I've since stopped when it left... people will pay more for it, just not on every flight.

Here's the problem, though. You can't take rows off of the plane for certain flights and put them back for others. There may be more customers willing to pay more for an extra inch or two of legroom on the 5pm Friday night flight out of LaGuardia, or the 6am Monday morning departure from O'Hare.

But for the other days of the week and times of day when these passengers don't appear at the airport ready to pay more to get more, the airline must make a decision about they value more -- schedule, price, flexibility, frequent flyer program, etc. -- or legroom.

Quoting JC5280 (Reply 14):
Not true.

Sorry, but true.

Will some people pay more for extra legroom, more food, better entertainment, etc.? Sure, there are relatively small constituencies of passengers for whom all of these things constitute the most important product components.

However, for the vast majority of air travelers today, in 2006, price is by far the most important factor in choosing an air carrier, followed closely by schedule.

So while some passengers may be willing to pay more for E+ and/or MRTC, and while United may well upsell some of its E+ seats, there are not enough customers (AA customers, at least) choosing to willingly pay more for an extra two inches of legroom to justify outfitting the entire fleet with MRTC.


User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5577 times:

Studies have shown People will pay more, but not massively more. SQ, for example, charges an average of 10% premium on the competition, and customers get excellent service and the airline makes money. CO charges about $10 more and they're doing well too.

IMHO, American lost its nerve. They priced their MRTC higher than the premium are willing to pay. They paniced and went back to following the rest of the lemmings in their race for the bottom in terms of customer service.

Charles, SJ



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineAJMIA From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 731 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Legroom, much like food and inflight entertainment, is something that the vast majority of travelers complain about often and constantly ask to be improved, but when push comes to shove, almost nobody is willing to pay more for it.

Price, Price, Price. People are cheap.

I used to see it all the time when I was in reservations. Even if you have better schedules and service than your competitor people will walk away from you for $5.00. Online booking has just served to enhance this. Passengers are constantly buying tickets with multiple connections and change of airports to get the lowest fare... then they show up at the airport and ask to be placed on a nonstop flight.

AJMIA



Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2332 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5441 times:

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 18):
IMHO, American lost its nerve. They priced their MRTC higher than the premium are willing to pay. They paniced and went back to following the rest of the lemmings in their race for the bottom in terms of customer service.

That is a guess Charles.

American offered the same cheap fares that everyone else had, but when it came to the other being slightly cheaper they went for the other.



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5420 times:

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 20):
That is a guess Charles.

American offered the same cheap fares that everyone else had, but when it came to the other being slightly cheaper they went for the other

It's a little more than a guess. It is a myth that customers will automatically go for the lowest fare in all cases. Brand loyalty in this industry is very strong what with frequent flyer programs and the like, as well as cities where there is only one dominent carrier. There is a certain segment of customers, infrequent travelers mostly, that are very price sensitive, but the vast majority are not. If they were, why haven't we seen any decrease in bookings as fares continue to rise? Indeed, planes are fuller than ever.

Charles, SJ



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11387 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5374 times:

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 21):
It is a myth that customers will automatically go for the lowest fare in all cases.

First off, nobody said it was all customers, just most, and nobody said it was in "all classes," as Coash is really the only class in question here, and since obviously Coach passengers tend to be more price-sensitive than premium passengers.

Secondly, price is the single largest motivating factor for the majority of air travelers in the United States today. There is just no question about it, and I honestly don't understand how you could possibly dispute that.

Again -- nobody is saying that aren't still some hopelessly romantic (or ruthlessly discerning) souls out there who aren't interested in comfortable seats, good service, etc., but for the vast majority of air travelers today -- and it is, indeed, these not-so-silent masses in the consumerist drivers seat since 9/11 -- price is the most important factor.

As a very smart man, Bob Crandall, used to say often: "the three most important motivating factors for buying a ticket are price, price and price."

It's just reality, and there is just no way around it.

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 21):
There is a certain segment of customers, infrequent travelers mostly, that are very price sensitive, but the vast majority are not.

That makes perfect logical sense. Finally -- someone has explained to me why price-sensitive airlines like JetBlue, Southwest and Frontier have been doing horribly in the last five years and shrinking rapidly while American, Delta and United are soaring high!

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Sarcasm, of course.]


User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5358 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):

The problem is that pax want to pay less and want a lot of the premium services. They do not understand that the airlines are not there to make the pax uncomfortable. The airlines are there to get people from point a to point b and make money while doing it.

Economy Plus as with UA is great. It has perks and is affordable. Other airlines like AA that have no economy plus, need SOMETHING in between a $200 coach seat and a $2000 first/business seat as I have said above.

What Pax need to do is open a frequent flier account, fly, and every couple of trips, they can upgrade to First. It really is not that hard to do.

Then comes the question if upgrade pax should be treated the same way as Paid First Class fares, and the answer is YES. First class is not IMHO for Premium passengers, but it is a Premium class, for the airlines loyal frequent travelers, and by upgrading, it shows that you are indeed, a loyal pax to that airline.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5299 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
Secondly, price is the single largest motivating factor for the majority of air travelers in the United States today. There is just no question about it, and I honestly don't understand how you could possibly dispute that.

Oh? Then why, pray tell, does CO charge a premium and have fewer losses when the rest of the industry is bathing in red ink?

Kindly kerb your sarcasm. It was of little surprise that your profile says you are 16-20.

Charles, SJ



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
25 Jacobin777 : ..and AA isn't one of those in the red either...which goes to show there isn't an "clear cut" way to make profits..... It's "curb"..however, maybe yo
26 Bicoastal : Because Economy Plus is a United product. Fly United, it's better anyway.
27 AJMIA : Brand loyalty is very strong for frequent flyer members when they reach the top tiers. It is also very strong for those frequent flyer members who pa
28 Halls120 : AA's problem is that they made the entire Y section "economy plus." What they should have done is followed UA's lead and limited MRTC to MRPC - more
29 AJMIA : In hindsight you may be right... I think the reason AA came out with MRTC instead of their own version of E+ was for simplification and trump UA by o
30 Jetdeltamsy : Because AA doesn't offer Economy Plus. Obviously they do not feel it would be beneficial for them or they would offer it. Anything that generates the
31 Willyj : I think that AA would do well putting their domestic first class seats in a 2x2x2 config on their 763's and in 2x4x2 on their 772's with a 38-40" pitc
32 Post contains images Werkur767 : I flown with AA twice and their economy class has a good legroom, this measure is for save money for sure, and a plus satisfaction for passengers. I t
33 777STL : He's right. Infrequent flyers make up the bulk of the passengers traveling today, especially with the advent of airlines such as WN and B9 that have
34 Commavia : Continental is able to charge a premium for several reasons: 1) They have excellent hubs, particularly Houston and Newark, that serve economically vi
35 Post contains images Ikramerica : And they'd rather fly a smaller plane completely full of higher fares and leave people behind than a larger plane and have to give away seats. Others
36 Cairo : No, somone said almost all customers: It isn't their low prices on these airlines that makes them grow, it is their low internal costs. I hope when I
37 Boston92 : Your profile says you are in your thirties, are you gonna be a teen again?
38 Cairo : You're right, thanks for pointing that out. I was just carelessly hoping I could once again achieve the apex of knowledge school children have...and
39 Ctbarnes : I did. He responded and said himself it was a sarcastic comment. It was inappropriate and immature and I called him on it. One profitable year is one
40 Post contains images Werkur767 : Only in United States...GOL in Brazil doen't offer a good service like JETBLUE for exemple!!!
41 777STL : But on the same token, you're saying that as if an older person is by definition wiser than someone who's younger. That's nonsense. There are plenty
42 Cairo : Have you noticed that Delta's management answers all their problems with, "Let's add even more flights to Atlanta." ??? Note to Delta management: peo
43 Commavia : The world "almost" being operative. Word to the wise: don't make assumptions or draw conclusions about people you've never met and have never seen or
44 Ckfred : The problem is both with airline marketing and passengers. The hotel chains are in an all-out war to see who has the most comfortable mattresses and
45 Mk777 : Its because they can still fill their Y seats without the E+, look at ORD-DEL, its usually full all the year round.
46 Ctbarnes : Thanks Fred. You said it better than I could. The recent fare increases are long overdue and necessary. Again, there is a significant segment of the
47 Willyj : Great that they are filling the flights - but the argument is that a premium economy class might actually raise yields. I think there's a good chance
48 Jacobin777 : I think AA could do well with 2 rows of E+..that's only 18 more seats and they can standardise it on all of their 777's...I think those seats would ge
49 Boston92 : How would that be MORE seats?
50 Mk777 : You know for a long flight like ORD-DEL, i would purchase those E+ seats myself, the cramped up economy for 14+ hours for a tall person like me was q
51 AA767400 : Thanks United cheerleader. Exactly. Ageist is what I call it. Thanks Continental cheerleader. It is not a valid point, it is a valid insult. Lack of
52 Post contains images Jacobin777 : My bad.. ...I should have stated "that is only 18 seats"... However, the problem is because of the extra pitch, some shuffling of the plane, or the p
53 Post contains images FXramper : Have you been on a AA 772 flight lately? Regardless of where the plane is going, cattle class is always 90-95% full. Would it really suit the company
54 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Hey....don't get me wrong there mate, I'm not saying AA is going to do it anytime soon, if ever..I just think its a good idea...many carriers such as
55 Post contains images Mk777 : of course you are and of course you have a good seat I am flying IAD-CDG-DEL in a few weeks myself and i do have good seats, can't wait to be on a 74
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