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Do Aircraft Come With Free Shipping And Handling?  
User currently offlineRemcor From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 357 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7439 times:

Ok, I phrased it flippantly, but is an aircraft purchase from say, Boeing or Airbus, FOB origin or FOB destination? Does the airline have to fly some pilots over to Boeing to pick up the keys, fill out the paperwork and fly her home, or is delivery to the destination airport sometimes part of the deal?

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7428 times:

I remember hearing on TV that when WN receives a new jet, instead of doing a test flight by company pilots, they take the plane and the free tank of gas back to DAL. Some employees are also along for the ride. What I heard said that WN does this because they know the capabilities of the aircraft they are receiving. They do have a few.

Maybe OPNLguy can back this up?


User currently offlineJjbiv From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7396 times:

Certainly almost always FOB origin.

Joe


User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3493 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7387 times:

Quoting Remcor (Thread starter):
Does the airline have to fly some pilots over to Boeing to pick up the keys, fill out the paperwork and fly her home

From what I understand, that's exactly what happens.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2986 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7392 times:

I'm sure the multi-millioin dollar price tax is "upon delivery".

[Edited 2006-12-10 06:03:24]


Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1867 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7263 times:
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At least with Bombardier, the aircraft are delivered FOB Montreal. I spoke with some 9E pilots who went to YUL to pick up brand new CRJ's from the factory. Apparently they have a delivery center, which processes all the necessary paperwork and even has flight releases ready for the pilots. Bombardier even throws in a full tank of fuel and caters the galley with meals and Coca-Cola beverages for the pilots. The pilots I spoke with flew from YUL to MEM (9E's headquarters) and had to also declare the aircraft to customs. The Bombardier delivery center also furnished the pilots with all the necessary paperwork to declare the airplane to US Customs.


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4626 posts, RR: 37
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7186 times:

What about a completely new aircraft type for the airline?


Word
User currently offlineAnax From Greece, joined Sep 2006, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7177 times:

no its FOB. the plane leaves the factory under the company's country registration. pilots fly there , check the plane if it is according to the specifications of the contract , pick up the keys , sign the papers and fly back home.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 6):
What about a completely new aircraft type for the airline?

if it is a new type for the airline , then the airline sends pilots much in advance for the initial training at the manufacturers traning center , Toulouse for Airbus , and Seattle for Boeing , so when it is time to deliver the aircraft , company's pilots are familiar with it.



god is a spotter!!!
User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8416 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7089 times:
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Quoting Remcor (Thread starter):
FOB origin or FOB destination



Quoting Jjbiv (Reply 2):
always FOB origin.



Quoting Acidradio (Reply 5):
FOB Montreal



Quoting Anax (Reply 7):
its FOB

First of all, according to the Incoterms 2000 standards, FOB only applies to goods transported by sea or inland waterway. If the airline collects the aircraft at the factory and is responsible for getting it home, it is ex-works (EXW).

http://www.ltdmgmt.com/incoterms.htm



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineJetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1616 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6956 times:
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From what I have read, all the airlines that have Boeing jets in production have their own company personnel on site. All Boeing airplanes are test flown by Boeing company pilots with the airline reps on board. In the case of the B-737, after the test flight or flights, the airplane, which is built in Renton is flown to the paint facility at Boeing Field for painting and then turned over to the airline. Wide body Boeings are all test flown and painted in Everett. Either way the airplane ownership is transferred to the airline in the State of Washington after the final payment is received by Boeing and flown out by the airlines pilots.

On Southwest Airlines web site early this year they had a weekly pictorial on the birth on one of their 737’s from initial cutting of the metal to final delivery. The only test flight took off from Renton and landed at Boeing Field.

Some corporate biz jets are flown by the manufacturer to a different state where the paperwork is signed for and ownership transferred to avoid local sales taxes, I believe Gulfstream does this to avoid the Georgia state sales tax.

In Connecticut there is a state law that exempts any instate aircraft manufacturer, i.e. Sikorsky from charging state sales taxes on aircraft picked up in state.

I would assume the state of Washington has a similar law exempting Boeing from the state sales tax on aircraft sold to US based airlines.

Also some biz jets are built in one state and flown to another state where the interior is installed. All Falcon jets are built in France and flown to Little Rock Arkansas for the interior, avionics and paint. All large Challenger biz jets are built in Canada and at one time some of the interiors were installed in Wichita Kansas or Tucson Arizona. Then the airplane is flown to another state or country by the manufacturer for transfer of ownership to avoid the sales tax on the added work. For US deliveries, most times the state is Delaware because they do not have a state sales tax and almost all large US corporations are incorporated in Delaware.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6841 times:

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
I remember hearing on TV that when WN receives a new jet, instead of doing a test flight by company pilots, they take the plane and the free tank of gas back to DAL. Some employees are also along for the ride. What I heard said that WN does this because they know the capabilities of the aircraft they are receiving. They do have a few.



Quoting Remcor (Thread starter):
Ok, I phrased it flippantly, but is an aircraft purchase from say, Boeing or Airbus, FOB origin or FOB destination? Does the airline have to fly some pilots over to Boeing to pick up the keys, fill out the paperwork and fly her home, or is delivery to the destination airport sometimes part of the deal?

One or two company (manufacture) test flights are followed by a customer acceptance flight. After the customer acceptance flight delivery is made. Actual delivery method will very between manufactures and customers, but customer crews are used for the delivery flight.

By the way there are "NO KEYS".


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6811 times:

Quoting Remcor (Thread starter):
Ok, I phrased it flippantly, but is an aircraft purchase from say, Boeing or Airbus, FOB origin or FOB destination? Does the airline have to fly some pilots over to Boeing to pick up the keys, fill out the paperwork and fly her home, or is delivery to the destination airport sometimes part of the deal?

And I thought that your next question would be.......is there a 30 exchange or money back period?

-------------

All kidding aside, is there a typical ""guaranty"" period for an airplane during which the manufacturer will fix problems and defects.....similiar to what is offered on an automobile? This is a question that I always wanted to ask.


User currently offlineRaginMav From United States of America, joined May 2004, 375 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6752 times:

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 5):
and had to also declare the aircraft to customs

wow I can just imagine that:

Customs agent: "Sir, do you have any items from Canada to declare?"

Captain: "well, I have this snowglobe for my wife, this t-shirt from the Hard Rock for my daughter, and um... there was something else.... OH! this CRJ we just got out of."


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8416 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6722 times:
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Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
is there a typical ""guaranty"" period for an airplane during which the manufacturer will fix problems and defects

A couple of months ago I flew on a new Q400 here and there was an engineer on board, we got chatting during the flight and he said that he was just flying about with the plane during a 3 week shakedown as part of the deal with SA Express.



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineWingnut767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6708 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
All kidding aside, is there a typical ""guaranty"" period for an airplane during which the manufacturer will fix problems and defects.....similiar to what is offered on an automobile? This is a question that I always wanted to ask.

Yes aircraft are warrantied. Usually for a year. Some Airlines put a warranty sticker on the log book so the Mech's will know. The parts replaced on the warrantied bird are handled differently.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6705 times:

Assuming it is a routine delivery and not a new type, the usual procedure goes about like this (varies a bit from airline to airline):
About four or five days before delivery, a test pilot, a QA engineer, and a junior executive arrive at Seattle, Toulouse, or Finkenwerder. The QA engineer observes and checks things while the airline's test pilot (in command) and a manufacturer's test pilot put the plane through a static power up, a high-speed taxi test, and then a flight test. One or more of these tests may be repeated if there are problems. Once all these tests are completed, the airline team compiles a list of all the problems found (typically dozens, many of which are minor) and then they sit down with the manufacturer and negotiate consessions. Once the concessions are agreed, they sign for the plane. A day or two before the expected delivery date, a second airline test pilot flies in and may observe the negotiations. Then the two test pilots fly the plane home with the QA engineer and executive as passengers. Sometimes one or two instructor pilots travel with the second test pilot and go along for the ride.

Been there, done that. Big grin


User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6692 times:
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Quoting Jetstar (Reply 9):
In the case of the B-737, after the test flight or flights, the airplane, which is built in Renton is flown to the paint facility at Boeing Field for painting and then turned over to the airline.

Not necessarily, Boeing has paint hangars at Renton. Some 737s get paint before first flight, some after they get to BFI.

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 9):
Either way the airplane ownership is transferred to the airline in the State of Washington after the final payment is received by Boeing and flown out by the airlines pilots.

Not necessarily. I've seen Boeing do deliveries at Vancouver Canada & Frankfurt Germany. Usually done for tax & or political reasons.



Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6651 times:

My question (that I always wanted to ask) is about how the engines'delivery is handled. As I understand it, the airline buys the engines directly from GE, RR, PW, whatever, and has it delivered to the airframe mannufacturer (Boeing, Aribus, whatever).

Is the acceptance/payment for the engines final when they are shipped to the airframe mannufacturer or when the customer test flights and takes delivery of the plane.

Are there any engine reps on the test flights or final aircraft acceptance?

Thanks.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6635 times:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
Are there any engine reps on the test flights or final aircraft acceptance?

There were when I did it, not onboard the test flights, but present on the ground.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8741 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6614 times:

Quoting Andz (Reply 8):
and is responsible for getting it home, it is ex-works (EXW).

exactly, and at which time, final payment is initiated. When the wheels leave the runway, the money flows from the buyers account to the aircraft manufacturers account.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineJjbiv From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6564 times:

Quoting Andz (Reply 8):
First of all, according to the Incoterms 2000 standards, FOB only applies to goods transported by sea or inland waterway. If the airline collects the aircraft at the factory and is responsible for getting it home, it is ex-works (EXW).

Firstly, when you quoted me you took the liberty of quoting less than the full sentence I wrote without using ellipses to indicate material was missing. This gives the impression that I wrote an absolute statement, something I go to great lengths never to do  Wink

Secondly, formal usage of Incoterms internationally is often different from their common domestic usage within the U.S. FOB (often incorrectly thought to mean Freight On Board, incidentally) is routinely used to describe transactions that will never see a water-going vessel.

Thirdly, EXW implies that the buyer facilitates the Customs export process. This may indeed be the case with respect to commercial aircraft, but, if so, it is otherwise a very rare practice; the seller almost always bears responsibility to export the goods from the country of manufacture, resulting in the Incoterm FCA.

Joe


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8741 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6464 times:

Quoting Jjbiv (Reply 20):

Secondly, formal usage of Incoterms internationally is often different from their common domestic usage within the U.S. FOB (often incorrectly thought to mean Freight On Board, incidentally) is routinely used to describe transactions that will never see a water-going vessel.

Thirdly, EXW implies that the buyer facilitates the Customs export process. This may indeed be the case with respect to commercial aircraft, but, if so, it is otherwise a very rare practice; the seller almost always bears responsibility to export the goods from the country of manufacture, resulting in the Incoterm FCA.

The INCOTERMS are valid worldwide. If, for domestic shipping in the US, the incorrect term FOB factory is often used, we should not care.

Next, the customs formalities vary from country to country. EXW in Germany always means, that the seller has to issue and pre-clear the export declaration and statistic form. The buyer cannot do this, by customs regulation. The seller has included these (minor - it is less than € 100,00) costs in his selling price, regardless if it is a machine worth € 1000,00 or an aircraft.

Let's assume Airbus ships a 319 ex XFW, the Incoterm will be EXW, customs will have stamped the statistic form presented by Airbus, the a/c will lift off and no further delivery charges apply.

FCA however is not appölicable, as the place of exportation is the factory of the seller. There is no inland transportation to a port of shipment.,

A full load of Kerosene may be on the house for a good customer.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineRemcor From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6360 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 10):
By the way there are "NO KEYS".

What??? Well does it at least come with fuzzy dice on the rear-view mirror?


User currently offlineAcabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 655 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6350 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 10):
By the way there are "NO KEYS".

Watched a Lufthansa programme on one of their their B744 deliveries in Seattle. And yes, they also received the keys.

Not real starter keys, of course.



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6341 times:

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 5):
I spoke with some 9E pilots who went to YUL to pick up brand new CRJ's from the factory

There will be some people from NW there too since NW owns the planes (leases them) and then subleases them to 9E.

Northwest sends flight crews and some other people to France and such to fly their planes back to the US, then to MSP for delivery and preperation for service.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
25 474218 : I think you will find the keys are only ceremonial. I don't known what the keys would lock or unlock, except may the licquor locker?
26 Acabgd : Certainly ceremonial, but 474218 emphasized there are no keys. However, there still are keys, albeit just for show (maybe cockpit doors as well?). Wo
27 Post contains images LTU932 : I saw once a programme about TZ ops on the Discovery a few months back. There was a part on I believe the C1 or acceptance flight for a brandnew 753
28 Post contains images Swissy : Agree, it was pretty similar the 4 times I was present at take over...... And each time "we" got the keys..... and a tank full of fuel some catering
29 Post contains links Bond007 : I believe this definitely happens with the Fedex and UPS aircraft, where instead of FOB or EXW, it is obviously 'Priority Overnight'. Each aircraft i
30 Dw9115 : Not true some biz jets and commercial jets do have keys they hand over to you but they do not have anything to do with the starting of them. But on t
31 777law : Depends on where delivery takes place. In the shipbuilding world, for example, delivery of the vessel generally takes place at the builders yard after
32 BlueFlyer : EXW may have localized meanings beyond its standard purpose due to local laws, but by its definition alone, EXW is the most favorable term for the se
33 777law : Probably so. Most large transport investments like ships and aircraft carry a manufacturers warranty. In shipbuilding the warranty period lasts betwe
34 B741 : I read something to the effect that BA pilots would do a 777 pre-delivery flight around Everett. This was to check for any "bugs" before acceptance.
35 Corey07850 : There was a post in the Trip Report Forum about a guy that flew over to LGB to pick up a 717 for AirTran... It was somewhat ceremonious, and overall a
36 Post contains images AirframeAS : Is that snowglobe the tracking device we were talking about last month in Non-av?! (Sorry, couldn't resist!! LOL!!)
37 Post contains images Falstaff : I bought a car in Canada once and the US customs agent gave me a bit of a hassle. The car was only $400 Canadian, I could only imagine the Duty for a
38 Mav75 : There are many references to FOB and EXW. My understanding of FOB is fuel on board, but I don't think it applies here. Can someone provide an explanat
39 Post contains images Andz : My apologies! If you read the link in my previous reply (reply 8) there is a brief definition of each of the terms.
40 777law : FOB = FREE ON BOARD. FOB means that delivery occurs and title and risk pass to the Buyer when the good is delivered aboard the delivery vessel by the
41 PanHAM : EXW or other terms are valid worldwide, they do not have localized meanings, they just are applied incorrect by many. Generally, the purchaser of any
42 Lotsamiles : I have been involved in a couple of 747-400F deliveries for foreign airlines. On one occasion the aircraft was accepted by the airline in Everett and
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