LouA340 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4548 times:
Thats quite interesting. Can the aircraft take such cruel weather in the Antarctic though? I'm presuming it wont spend that much time parked there and definitely not do an overnight stay.
ZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1923 posts, RR: 7 Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4519 times:
My question is can it land with enough fuel to make it back?? As well as how are they going to make the runway? Ice? I know DHC-6s and such can take the ice, but an A319 with enough fuel to fly back 4 hours, will certanly need a nice smooth long strech of ice.
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4374 times:
There is some detailed info if you google for 'Sir Hubert Wilkins blue ice runway'.
It already exists, is 400 metres by 4000 metres and strong enough to take anything with wheels in what passes for summer daylight conditions.
The tender papers and related stuff in recent years has emphasised that there will be no refuelling of the flights from Hobart, you arrive, turn around and depart, or loiter for only a matter of minutes if the weather turns ugly and go straight back to base.
Halophila From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 623 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4204 times:
My goodness this is wonderful news. No more C-141's and Hercs down south for aussie researchers!! A welcome relief. My friends have travelled on the USAF starlifters and said they're really uncomfortable for an 8 hour flight. What a step up!
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6222 posts, RR: 3 Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4117 times:
Quoting Halophila (Reply 6): . No more C-141's and Hercs down south for aussie researchers!!
No matter what the benefits of the A319, you can't attach skis to it like you can the C-130. Sorry, but there are times when it will not do this job.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4070 times:
In fact the Australians are using skiis where they are needed, on small CASA turbo-props, but following the US lead at McMurdo which is to move to graded hard ice operations at least in part as the C-130s disappear and the modifications to large capacity jets to give them skiis like the superb C-17 are at least so far considered of insufficient merit.
The tractor road to the South Pole base from McMurdo will remove the base lift factor of ski-equipped turbo props from the supply line equations, and the new high altitude bases at Dome C are apparently destined to be served by tractor trains.
I'm not sure what the future holds for larger ski-equipped transports in Antarctica, although you would have to think there will remain some niche missions.
As I understand it the Wilkins runway will in due course see flights by the likes of IL-76s and 747Fs as the pace of expansion by India and China in bases within a few hours flight of the 'hub' generates demand for air cargo that can be broken up and moved on in smaller flights.
DJ748 From Australia, joined Jul 2006, 355 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3946 times:
I heard about this on the daily news tonight (Monday night). The A319 is going to be setup in all business class setup. Apparently it is setup that way to give the researchers a more comfortable flight.
Prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6019 posts, RR: 55 Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3418 times:
Quoting LouA340 (Reply 1): Thats quite interesting. Can the aircraft take such cruel weather in the Antarctic though? I'm presuming it wont spend that much time parked there and definitely not do an overnight stay.
It definitely won't make an "overnight stay". A night on Atarctica lasts several months (all winter) depending on latitude.
Such cruel weather...? Right now it is summer, midnight sun and everything. The weather can be really nice. At least those flights will be piece of cake compared to ordinary commercial winter operation in Greenland and Northern Canada/Alaska.
When the Air Greenland A330 stays overnight these days at Kangerlussuaq, Greenland (which happens all the time) then it is a much more cruel treatment of that plane.
The impressive thing is entirely that they managed to produce a good runway. Since that has been done, then it is only to go and hire any airliner which has the range to make it both ways without being fueled.
The A319 will probably suffer some severe payload restrictions on those flights. Really long range planes will most likely suffer the same since they will have to observe max landing weight including fuel for the return flight. Long range planes always have a max landing weight which is a lot smaller than max take-off weight.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3104 times:
Quoting Halophila (Reply 6): My goodness this is wonderful news. No more C-141's and Hercs down south for aussie researchers!! A welcome relief. My friends have travelled on the USAF starlifters and said they're really uncomfortable for an 8 hour flight. What a step up!
The last USAF C-141 Starlifter was retired on May 6, 2006. Interesting item below re the C-141's last mission to Antarctica and related history of that operation.
Halophila From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 623 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2820 times:
Quoting DJ748 (Reply 9): Apparently it is setup that way to give the researchers a more comfortable flight.
To be fair, the demand for passengers/researchers to the Antarctic falls well short of a fully economy load. I doubt the A319 will have AVOD/beverage service/lie-flat seats. Though as a researcher myself, who never gets to travel J anywhere - have to say that would be sweet !
YVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2091 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2790 times:
Excuse me if im being dense, but where is the aircraft coming from? The article says the federal government is leasing it - so will this be from a leasing company such as ILFC or will it be from someone like Privatair or Twinjet? Im presuming its an ACJ, but suppose an LR version would do the job - do any airlines apart from AF have the LR version? Next question, if from ILFC for example, will it be new build?
Didnt the RAAF just take delivery of some BBJ's?? Why not use one of them or get an extra one instead of add an ACJ too, or were the BBJ's AWACS type aircraft for completely different missions (i remember they had a unique name beginning with W...)?
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2771 times:
Floor and hold space containers are going to be rolled out onto the ice in a fast turn procedure. You couldn't do this in a VIP configured jet and the below decks arrangement on a 737 is not as efficient as on an A320.
It is reasonable to predict too that the demand on the Wilkins strip will see much larger jets than A319s being required for some missions. This is a 4000 metre runway able to take anything with wheels, with cold dense air that is ideal for efficient takeoff performance. I would have thought the RAAF C-17s may fly at least one or two heavy duty sorties per season as activity grows.
There is a fair bit of detail on the 'net. Google it.
N757KW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 425 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2483 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 19): And to rub salt into the wound, these days, "Boeing" C-130s are used in Antartica, along perhaps with "Boeing" C-17s.
I think you still call Lockheed C-130s, Lockheed C-130s. Lockheed still is making I think the J model at the Marietta plant here in Georgia.
N757KW
"What we've got here, is failure to communicate." from Cool Hand Luke
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10469 posts, RR: 20 Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2372 times:
PA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1950 posts, RR: 26 Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2353 times:
Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 10): When the Air Greenland A330 stays overnight these days at Kangerlussuaq, Greenland (which happens all the time) then it is a much more cruel treatment of that plane
A bit off the subject, but GL's A330 aircraft and crew are based in CPH, not SFJ. GL781 departs CPH 0915, arriving SFJ 0955, then turns around and returns back to CPH as GL782 departing SFJ 1110 arriving CPH 1930. There is no overnight for the A330 in SFJ unless under exceptional circumstances. GL's 757 and A330 crews are based in CPH, and both the 757 and A330 are based in CPH.
And now back to the topic at hand...
An A319 or any other low wing aircraft is certainly an unusual choice for Antarctica. I would have though the chances of ingesting Ice and Snow would be far greater than for the high wing aircraft currently operating down there. But then again, I'm not an expert, so I will gladly defer t those with more knowledge on the subject.
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2281 times:
PA110,
I'm not an expert on this either, just enthralled by the history of the exploration of Antarctica.
But my understanding is that a blue ice runway, which you will it find as being described as cut to the ice with the surface replenished with crushed granules of ice or snow pressed over the surface with heavy rollers and graders is the way it has been done since the phasing out of the heavy ski-equipped age began some time ago. So the issue of engine placement is no more challenging than any deep wintry airport like those of Alaska, the Canadian far north or maybe even Minneapolis. As long as the runway is clear.
I'd love to fly there, but everything I've read so far says this will be only used for supply missions.
DJ748 From Australia, joined Jul 2006, 355 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2201 times:
Quoting Halophila (Reply 16): I doubt the A319 will have AVOD/beverage service/lie-flat seats
From what I would be understanding from my limited knowledge on the topic, the seating arrangement would be more like what would be found on OzJet compared to what you would find on international flights with the large commercial carriers.
Zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7725 posts, RR: 73 Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1925 times:
Quoting Antares (Reply 4): The tender papers and related stuff in recent years has emphasised that there will be no refuelling of the flights from Hobart, you arrive, turn around and depart, or loiter for only a matter of minutes if the weather turns ugly and go straight back to base.
Same for the Falcon 900ER that they were previously going to use.
Quoting Antares (Reply 8): As I understand it the Wilkins runway will in due course see flights by the likes of IL-76s and 747Fs as the pace of expansion by India and China in bases within a few hours flight of the 'hub' generates demand for air cargo that can be broken up and moved on in smaller flights.
I doubt that, they dont really have the range with a good payload for a return trip without a refuel. A 777F/A330F would be much better.
Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 10): The A319 will probably suffer some severe payload restrictions on those flights. Really long range planes will most likely suffer the same since they will have to observe max landing weight including fuel for the return flight. Long range planes always have a max landing weight which is a lot smaller than max take-off weight.
The MLW can be increased easy enough by paying some $$ to airbus.
Quoting A342 (Reply 14): Will the new base be considered an ETOPS alternate ? I mean, how are the flights supposed to be legal ? But correct me if I'm wrong.
ETOPS is an interesting issue ....
Cannot be made by with ETOPS.
Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
Another thing: How can you land on bare ice ? That is damn slippery !
My understanding is it will be compacted snow ontop of blue ice, the landing distance would be 1600m with medium brakes, 1940 with low brakes, on ice the landing distance would be about 3100m.
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 17): Excuse me if im being dense, but where is the aircraft coming from? The article says the federal government is leasing it - so will this be from a leasing company such as ILFC or will it be from someone like Privatair or Twinjet? Im presuming its an ACJ, but suppose an LR version would do the job - do any airlines apart from AF have the LR version? Next question, if from ILFC for example, will it be new build?
Seen a Qatar A319-100LR before, AF, Comlux, China Sonangol International, Druk Air - Royal Bhutan Airlines, Eurofly, and Aero Services Executive have LRs.
Do Privatair or Twinjet have the LR, or are they just CJs.
I guess the aircraft maybe SN 2801 which is a A319-115(LR) which is currently an unidentified order.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
MCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8553 posts, RR: 14 Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1915 times:
Quoting N328KF (Reply 7): No matter what the benefits of the A319, you can't attach skis to it like you can the C-130. Sorry, but there are times when it will not do this job.
Agreed.
I think a dedicated C130 would be better off because of its proven anartic capabilities. Congrats to Airbus on this one. I guess this is an important milestone for them.
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6222 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1916 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 25): Cannot be made by with ETOPS.
As a government flight, it is free to ignore ETOPS.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
25 Zeke: Quoting N328KF (Reply 24): As a government flight, it is free to ignore ETOPS To the best of my knowledge it will be operated by Skytraders a non-gove
26 Magyar: Sorry for my ignorace (in case I am wrong), but is it not the first pseudo-regular flight with a (pseudo-) commercial plane to Antartica?
27 Prebennorholm: That's right PA110. But when talking winter ops in Greenland, and when maybe exagerating a little bit, then there is nothing but "exceptional circums
28 N328KF: Yes, but if CASA (the Aussie aviation authority) wished to grant a waiver in this decidedly abnormal instance, they could.
29 MCOflyer: You mean this a quick turn around when it lands in Antarctica. MCOflyer
30 Gemuser: Not what I hear! Be intresting to see how it pans out. Gemuser
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